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Could CCP be about to repeat Incarna?

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JamDunc
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#41 - 2013-11-16 19:22:25 UTC
Anomaly One wrote:
I just hope they don't release avatar and such through WoD and leave EVE without it.


Well they did say at fanfest that 5 years ago they talked about letting us fight on planets and now we can. It was in a totally different game but in CCPs eyes they lived up to that promise.

I can see them turning around and saying that 5 years ago we told you, you would be able to have avatars and mix in rooms together and now you can. Just buy WoD.
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#42 - 2013-11-16 19:26:48 UTC
TigerXtrm wrote:
When Seagull presented the 5 year plan of introducing player built Stargates and all that other amazing stuff, they explicitly mentioned that for the time being it was just a vision. Nothing about it was in development yet and it was no hard promise of any kind.


Five years?

Bloody hell, this Rubicon we're just about to cross is a damn long way from the walls of Rome ain't it?

I will not be spending the next five years paying CCP for EVE, if all we get are pithy expansions like Rubicon.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Dun'Gal
Myriad Contractors Inc.
#43 - 2013-11-16 20:33:35 UTC
No.

Ah... that was easy.

Oh yeah, I just posted in another EvEisDieing/DustisDead/Imamadcarebear/whateverotherfotmthread.
Halcyon Ingenium
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#44 - 2013-11-16 20:34:28 UTC
Quote:
Could CCP be about to repeat Incarna?


I don't think so, but this is a fascinating variation on Godwin's law.

By the way, since we're already talking, do you want to buy a rifter? I've got the cheapest rifters in Metropolis. If you can find a cheaper rifter, buy it!
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#45 - 2013-11-16 20:45:22 UTC
JamDunc wrote:
Arduemont wrote:
That engine by the way, then brought a plethora of awesome changes in Crucible. Like most of the V3 textures, Time Dilation, all the new UIs, the basis for the new Crime watch system, etc etc etc.


Do you have any sources for that? Not trying to put you on the spot, I would be really interested to read about that.


The engine and backed work is called "Carbon". You can read about it and the facilities it enables over on CCP's glossy brochure page here: http://www.ccpgames.com/en/company/technology.aspx


Day 0 Advice for New Players
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#46 - 2013-11-16 20:57:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Rinn
JamDunc wrote:
Could CCP be about to repeat Incarna?


Betteridges Law of Headlines applies here.

JamDunc wrote:
After the summer of rage Hilmar was forced to come back to the community (with or without his $1000 Japanese jeans) and pretty much beg forgiveness. He had lost a fair chunk of his playerbase and was about to lay off about 20% of his workforce.

…

Over the last few months things seem to be repeating themselves.

1 - Trillions of isks worth of ships to Somer …

2 - The community event …

3 - GM changes - You can now be banned for "impersonating" your own alt. You can also be banned for scraping the APIs, …

Then we have the BIG one. Seaguls vision. Does anyone else remember the build up to Incarna? It was going to be awesome, it was going to be amazing, it was going to change the universe forever......but we can't tell you anything about how it will work. No we also can't tell the CSM.....you know for 'reasons'.

…

I know its early in the process and its not all final so they can't be super specific, but does anyone else feel a little history repeating.


There has not been a year (and usually, a Summer expansion) since I have started playing where the players haven't gotten stroppy over something. This year is no different.

The community event was a mixture of success (2000 people turned up) and failure (2000 people expected a theme park ride). The failure of the Live Event was a mixture of CCP's fault (expecting hi sec role players to have a clue about fleet operations, operation in lowsec, operation in null sec) and players being daft (expecting CCP to make null sec safe for them). As further events are planned and executed, I expect we'll see the Live Events staff get their collective acts together, and the players involved will hopefully start growing brains (or at least start using the ones they already have).

The GM changes have been necessary due to the player base being total Munchkins. As a group, this player base is definitely the most interested in defeating the rules, mostly because we have so few rules about behaviour in the first place. It is to be expected that in a game where politics and treachery are celebrated as part of what makes the virtual world so exciting, the players will try being treacherous to the actual game environment. Thus the GMs have to pull stunts like enforcing rules that they cannot tell us about, since if they told us the rules people would be looking for loopholes and escape clauses.

Back to your claim that CCP is doing another Incarna, here are some facts:

  • CCP has maintained their changed direction of releasing many point releases rather than one or two big feature dumps
  • CCP has been far more open about stuff they are doing (just because they messed up with Gold Scorpions doesn't mean they haven't been awesome in other arenas)
  • CCP have certainly not been holding back development on most aspects of the game for the sake of concentrating on a "Jesus Feature" which they hope will magically make the whole world want to play EVE Online
  • The CSM has been involved in the development process as a stakeholder, to the point that CCP is loudly proclaiming that two features of Rubicon are directly a result of CSM prioritisation (SMA loot and in-space refitting of T3 subsystems)
  • As for Seagull's vision, delivery has already started.


In summary, the answer to your original question is "no," just as Betteridge's law suggests.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Evei Shard
Shard Industries
#47 - 2013-11-16 21:16:19 UTC
JamDunc wrote:
Anomaly One wrote:
I just hope they don't release avatar and such through WoD and leave EVE without it.


Well they did say at fanfest that 5 years ago they talked about letting us fight on planets and now we can. It was in a totally different game but in CCPs eyes they lived up to that promise.

I can see them turning around and saying that 5 years ago we told you, you would be able to have avatars and mix in rooms together and now you can. Just buy WoD.


This is a great concern. In the game world in general there seems to be a trend towards word manipulation in marketing.

It's like a used car dealer advertising "used cars starting as low as $100", and when you get there, there is one horrid car for $100, but the rest are $10k and up. Sure, the business didn't lie, but they abused common decency as well.
CCP saying we'd be able to fight on planets and then trying to say they fulfilled that with Dust is a bait and switch of sorts. This sort of activity is becoming prevalent in games. One of the worst offenders is Arenanet (GW2). They are masters at word manipulation.
The worst part about it is that the consumers go right on buying. Consumers enable the companies to get away with this sort of stuff.

As for the Rubicon expansion, I'm still left wondering if CCP is at a point that they *can't* do anything more with Eve. That they've hit some hard limits on code or technology, and so on, and that they are now in a mode of treading water, just trying to keep the playerbase subscribing until they get WoD out (and perhaps foolishly assuming that it will save them financially).

On the other hand, I imagine that it's possible that the players of Eve are the problem for CCP. They may have some fantastic Sov solutions out there that would transform null-sec completely and make it a very competitive and exciting place to be, but they can't ever implement them because the changes would require a reset of nullsec. This would **** off their primary playerbase, so we're stuck.
Same with POS' stuff. They probably have some great fixes that would be easy to code, but it would require a complete reset.

In the interest of communication, maybe CCP should approach the community about such things, if they exist. Maybe they'll find out that null-sec is actually open to going that far if it means a much better solution (it's a stretch, but I'm feeling optimistic today).

Profit favors the prepared
David Kir
Hotbirds
#48 - 2013-11-16 21:23:39 UTC
Nope.

You might not have noticed, but CCP has already started delivering Seagull's plan.

Her vision is just the ultimate result of this development cycle, but we're going to see bits of it being slipped into the TQ code little by little, all over the remaining 30 months.

Rubicon 1.1 and the 2014 summer expansion will tackle the last ship balance issues (aw Hel yeah!), they'll probably start focusing on other major issues before THE BIG THING is fully delivered.

Yes, we've got a long time to wait, but rest assured, the game will undergo a heavy rehaul in the meanwhile.

The most positive part about this is that we once again have something to look forward to.
Something big, something unknown.
Something scary.

Friends are like cows: if you eat them, they die.
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#49 - 2013-11-16 22:47:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
David Kir wrote:

You might not have noticed, but CCP has already started delivering Seagull's plan.


They started delivering on their plan for Walking in Stations too. It's not about starting, it's about finishing. We'll just have to see if what they "finish" ends up being a pile of crap.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#50 - 2013-11-16 23:23:54 UTC
TigerXtrm wrote:
JamDunc wrote:
Kate stark wrote:
judging by that quote nothing at ccp has changed.


It did for awhile. For a short time they became really open. Asked question got feedback and for a year or two there was pretty much no drama and rage. Then they hired a bunch of guys from EA and clammed up again.

Then things started to go to ****. Over the last year, how many stupid moves has CCP done that could have easily been avoided by communicating more?


In my opinion more communication isn't automatically a positive influence on the game development process. Aside from the fact that it costs a lot of valuable time to communicate everything with the community, there's only two things that can realistically happen.

1. The community gives feedback and CCP listens, in the worst case having to change their entire development schedule and setting a project back by months, costing tons of money in manpower.

2. The community gives feedback and CCP decides to ignore it if it results in too big of a change, keeping to schedule and keeping down costs but the community is in uproar.

There's a reason 99% of the game developers out there use scenario number 2. Money and manpower is a limited resource with which you can only do so much, which is something the players of said games like to often forget.

Somewhere after those two years CCP figured out (with or without advice from the EA guy) that being too involved with the community can actually hurt your development process. So they toned it down a bit.

For all intents and purposes CCP is still heavily involved with the community through regular Dev Blogs, the CSM, Fan Fest, being somewhat active on the forum, etc. I would just like for people to appreciate what they have for once instead of always demanding more.


fair point, but all of the above only represents one way communication from CCP, one way communication is next to useless as of course theres no possibility for change. CCP might as well quit the announcements and the dev blogs, briefings etc and just surprise us all every six months. For what it is worth CCP do work hard but they are just not good at maintaining a cosy relationship with their subscribers, this can only be institutional, company culture if you will...

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Jennifer Maxwell
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#51 - 2013-11-17 00:03:02 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
For a little while now I have thought CCP have been heading for a new Incarnageddon. Maybe not a Rubiconageddon, but not far off. I like the changes we're getting but they are too few. Feels like Eve is being abandoned.

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:

...and, there was little beef and much sizzle because they were doing a lot of invisible backend work.


That as well. I think perhaps this was more an issue of transparency. If they had actually said "Hey, we're integrating the CARBON engine during Incarna, so although we are starting the first step to walking in stations, don't expect too much" then we wouldn't have had half the rage kick back.

These deployable structures are big. It's adding a feature with tons of utility and potential, along with possibly phasing out the old POS mechanics eventually.

Its not like it's going to take until the Summer Expansion to get more deployable structures. CCP has stated that there are more coming with the 1.1 update to Rubicon, and conceivably even more after that. They're laying the foundation to build upon; a new mechanic.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#52 - 2013-11-17 00:10:07 UTC
JamDunc wrote:
Broker Agent wrote:
didn't you hear? Dust is actually dying. No, I mean it. Really.

http://eve-offline.net/?server=dust


I'm not sure. They do seem to have been able to hold onto that 4000 max players online in 24 hours for quite awhile now. Seems like the fall has hit a bottom at least in the short term.

The next few months will be interesting as the PS4 gets into more and more homes.


If they released a pc client they might get 300, 000 new subscribers.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#53 - 2013-11-17 00:53:51 UTC
JamDunc wrote:


1 - Trillions of isks worth of ships to Somer - CCP didn't feel the need to tell the community or even the CSM. CCP no longer feels the need to discuss things with the community

2 - The community event - more than the event it was their response to it. Trying to convince us it was a success. They are either losing the connection to the community or heading back into denial.

3 - GM changes - You can now be banned for "impersonating" your own alt. You can also be banned for scraping the APIs, but even though its against the EULA they won't ban you, well unless they do. They are returning to half thought out ideas that make no sense at all.


.


1. No one but a few forums warriors really cares. Businesses that help each other out sometimes give gifts. Lots of people play blink and still do.

2. Community event version ONE. scripted battle that caldari lose and a huge ship crashes into the planet.
player response wah wah wah player influence meant nothing.
version TWO. players are allowed to influence the event.
player response wah wah wah my ship died.

3. Impersonating your alt for scamming is banned. For any other purpose revealing alts is fine and people do it every day on MD subforum where the rules have been made abundantly clear.

If you want the devs to judge feedback by volume then i feel sorry for you as many of the loudest voices in the community are clueless. If you want them to weight the feedback based on quality then i am pretty sure that is what they are trying to do already and reasonably well.

Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85
Zions Child
Higashikata Industries
#54 - 2013-11-17 01:41:03 UTC
I didn't get the memo, is CCP giving us all free pitchforks with Rubicon or something?
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#55 - 2013-11-17 01:41:26 UTC
Here is the deal... Something might actually change the gaming industry completely very soon.

CCP knows this and that's why they put 20 engineers on certain project.

And no its not Star CItizen.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server
Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#56 - 2013-11-17 01:46:29 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Here is the deal... Something might actually change the gaming industry completely very soon.

CCP knows this and that's why they put 20 engineers on certain project.

And no its not Star CItizen.


Consoles masterrace, nothings gonna change.

RATE LIKE SUBSCRIBE
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#57 - 2013-11-17 01:52:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
Baali Tekitsu wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Here is the deal... Something might actually change the gaming industry completely very soon.

CCP knows this and that's why they put 20 engineers on certain project.

And no its not Star CItizen.


Consoles masterrace, nothings gonna change.


Its not the consoles either. Actually, it might even threaten consoles.

Which is why Sony is developing their own.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server
Zions Child
Higashikata Industries
#58 - 2013-11-17 03:19:20 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Baali Tekitsu wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Here is the deal... Something might actually change the gaming industry completely very soon.

CCP knows this and that's why they put 20 engineers on certain project.

And no its not Star CItizen.


Consoles masterrace, nothings gonna change.


Its not the consoles either. Actually, it might even threaten consoles.

Which is why Sony is developing their own.


I too, am cryptic and vague.
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#59 - 2013-11-17 10:50:12 UTC
Jennifer Maxwell wrote:

These deployable structures are big.


Your a 2013 player. You've never seen a big expansion.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
David Kir
Hotbirds
#60 - 2013-11-17 11:22:08 UTC
Arduemont wrote:


They started delivering on their plan for Walking in Stations too. It's not about starting, it's about finishing. We'll just have to see if what they "finish" ends up being a pile of crap.


They announced WIS in 2006, announced Incarna in 2009, started delivering it in 2011.
All of which while overlooking FIS.

Seagull's BIG THING has just been announced, and they're already working on it.
While also working on improving the already existing content.

Similes are double-edged swords, learn to use them.

Friends are like cows: if you eat them, they die.