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Now that T2 guns will be so easy to train for
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Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2013-11-16 08:55:02 UTC
Can we please make faction weapons benefit from the spec skills and use T2 ammo?

The skill point/training time argument has been dramatically reduced.

These weapons will be even more useless than before.
Shivanthar
#2 - 2013-11-16 10:01:50 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
Can we please make faction weapons benefit from the spec skills and use T2 ammo?

The skill point/training time argument has been dramatically reduced.

These weapons will be even more useless than before.


+1
Maybe, they might include or improve something over T2 counterparts. One of the: Reload time, magazine capacity, range, +tracking, etc...

They become so obsolete now :(

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.
Yolo
Unknown Nation
#3 - 2013-11-16 10:06:11 UTC
if faction wepons gets t2 bonuses, they will be better then t2 weapons, so most people will want to use them.
The price makes it balanced since faction weapons are so much more expensive, you might not use it for everyday pvp.

- since 2003, bitches
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2013-11-16 10:18:44 UTC
T2 launchers never suffered from the redeculous training time t2 turrets did.
The reduced training time is irrevilent to if faction should be able to use T2 charges.

I still vote no. -1

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#5 - 2013-11-16 14:10:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
faction weapons have their benefits already. I have a few eft fits where adding faction guns to a say rokh frees up lots of grid to run a few hybrid rigs....not needing to go ape crap with fitting mods/rigs. T2 guns these fits have eft telling me in so many words no f'ing way lol.


The real issue with faction guns, and many other mods, is a rather out of date lp store pricing scheme. Last I checked my rokh above is an easy 800-900 mil in CN guns. Guns not the only thing like this. Many CN shield mods at this point have cheaper or almost equal priced DS gear. Or if the DS gear costs more....it has a major boost to make the isk worth it.

Price of faction gear for most things is not even price gouging. Its the seller looking at a slim profit over what he needed to get from the lp store.

Fix the lp store needs and prices and faction would be more viable. Lack of t2 ammo is not holding them back. At least in pvp. With my hydrids in pvp the SOP generic ammo is navy AM. On my minmatar ships its RF ammo. Most bang for the buck in most situations you would encounter. I just switched to t2 for special use really. More range or I really need to get some damage on target fast. Their drawbacks making all in one use not so desirable.

And like said above missiles are "easier" to train than guns atm. You still don't see pvp drakes running CN HAM/HML. There's that pesky price problem again most likely. Fit depending CN ammo on CN launchers is more dps iirc. You just pay a high price to get there.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#6 - 2013-11-17 02:28:18 UTC
T2 guns still require their relevant skill be trained to 5. You just spend less time getting to that size. There's no reason to boost faction guns.
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#7 - 2013-11-17 07:08:55 UTC
The only thing I would like to see changed with the guns is that officer guns should be able to use T2 ammo.

Faction guns are modified T1 guns
Officer guns are modified T2 guns

I think the price point of officer guns can justify that much...

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#8 - 2013-11-17 07:22:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Verity Sovereign wrote:
Can we please make faction weapons benefit from the spec skills and use T2 ammo?

The skill point/training time argument has been dramatically reduced.

These weapons will be even more useless than before.



Let me see if I get the logic here...since training for T2 guns is easier, you want to not train for T2 guns but still use T2 ammo?

Or are you asking so to be allowed to use T2 ammo in faction guns once you trained for T2 guns?

In the first case...no.

In the second case, why? The whole idea of these guns, by and large, are for PvE fits where you are trying to min-max your dps/tank, etc. Now you want the fitting benefits and the damage/range benefits of T2 ammo as well? Why?

Edit: Whoops, type...meant PvE fits, not PvE. Oops

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Yummy Chocolate
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2013-11-17 07:25:28 UTC
Lol

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good one OP

got any other jokes you wanna share?

Frostys Virpio > CCP: Continously Crying Playerbase

Felicity Love >... was thinking "moar popcorn"... but now, seeing the truly awesome contribution this thread is going to make to the Greater Glory Of EVE.... imagonnamakkadapizza....
Gigan Amilupar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2013-11-17 07:47:26 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Verity Sovereign wrote:
Can we please make faction weapons benefit from the spec skills and use T2 ammo?

The skill point/training time argument has been dramatically reduced.

These weapons will be even more useless than before.



Let me see if I get the logic here...since training for T2 guns is easier, you want to not train for T2 guns but still use T2 ammo?

Or are you asking so to be allowed to use T2 ammo in faction guns once you trained for T2 guns?

In the first case...no.

In the second case, why? The whole idea of these guns, by and large, are for PvP fits where you are trying to min-max your dps/tank, etc. Now you want the fitting benefits and the damage/range benefits of T2 ammo as well? Why?


The reason he mentions the new T2 training time is because in the past the argument has been that since Faction guns do not require the same training time that T2 guns did, so they should not gain the ability to use T2 ammo even at their high price point. Even with the changes, I think this argument still has merit. More than that, it's a valid point that the strength of faction gear is the reduction in fitting costs, not actual stats or capability. At least it is for faction guns. I know the faction hardeners and the like are just as good as their T2 counterparts, but since we are not seeing such a radical difference in performance between T2 hardeners and their T1 counterparts I think it's fine (The difference between T1 and T2 guns can be hundreds of DPS, where as the difference between meta 4 and T2 hardeners is generally a few percent. Definitely worth training, but not as huge of a gap as with guns).

As for other mentioned ideas, I do think that it is a good idea for officer guns to be able to use T2 ammo as that makes sense to me in terms of gear progression. And as for an update to faction gear prices, I wouldn't disagree as long as it is within reason. CCP takes an approach of exponential cost increase for a small and linear performance increase, as to offset power creep. But that being said, I would be ok with this gap being reduced between T1 gear and faction gear. Where as officer equipment is incredibly expensive not only due to the performance increase but also largely out of rarity (a fact which further cements it's use on titans and the like as if your going to fly a giant target you may as well get the most out of it, that is, no one is passing up a titan kill because it's not officer fit) faction gear is in ready supply and is expensive based solely because of the LP costs. I want to say the idea behind this is to give faction warfare players an edge in combat, and something to regularly trade their LP for as their ships are no doubt being blown up for the cause regularly; something that in turn acts as an LP sink. But a slight reduction to help bring more of that equipment onto the market (especially now that the empires are "losing their grasp") isn't unreasonable in my mind; although someone at CCP would of course have to make the same call. Reducing the price of faction gear would be nice, but I can't see a strong enough argument to do it that CCP would really consider it.

TLDR: No, faction guns shouldn't get to use T2 ammo. Yes, officer guns should be able to use T2 ammo because it makes sense and gives a little more purpose to having such ridiculous bling on your ship. Reduction in faction prices? Maybe. Nice to have, but not really required.
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2013-11-17 08:42:28 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
T2 launchers never suffered from the redeculous training time t2 turrets did.
The reduced training time is irrevilent to if faction should be able to use T2 charges.

I still vote no. -1


Faction Launchers were out of whack (and still are), in that their base DPS is higher than T2 launchers at spec V (at least for DG/CN launchers). T2 guns on the other hand out DPS (both using standard/faction ammo) faction at spec lvl 4. Also, T2 missile ammo is generally not as useful as T2 gun ammos, so that all points towards using faction all the time - maximum DPS.
The case is so different that the comparison is not valid.

Gigan Amilupar wrote:
More than that, it's a valid point that the strength of faction gear is the reduction in fitting costs, not actual stats or capability. At least it is for faction guns. I know the faction hardeners and the like are just as good as their T2 counterparts, but since we are not seeing such a radical difference in performance between T2 hardeners and their T1 counterparts I think it's fine (The difference between T1 and T2 guns can be hundreds of DPS, where as the difference between meta 4 and T2 hardeners is generally a few percent. Definitely worth training, but not as huge of a gap as with guns).


#1) For most faction guns (I think Arty excepted?), the faction guns have the PG requirements of T2 guns - you save a bit on CPU over T2, but that has never mattered in any of my fits. If they had the T1 PG requirements, that would be a valid argument, but they don't, they are nearly as hard to fit as T2 guns, and always harder to fit than Meta 4 guns.

#2) You talk of hundred of DPS... and a few percent in resists. Learn to maths.
50 vs 55% resists means 50% vs 45% incoming damage - thats 11.1% more EHP against a damage type. In comparison, T2 guns at spec V do ~10% more damage. T2 vs meta 4 tanking mods results in thousnads more EHP against your hundred or so more DPS, they are basically the same when one looks at percentages.

Teckos Pech wrote:
Let me see if I get the logic here...since training for T2 guns is easier, you want to not train for T2 guns but still use T2 ammo?

Or are you asking so to be allowed to use T2 ammo in faction guns once you trained for T2 guns?

In the first case...no.

In the second case, why? The whole idea of these guns, by and large, are for PvE fits where you are trying to min-max your dps/tank, etc. Now you want the fitting benefits and the damage/range benefits of T2 ammo as well? Why?


The 2nd case .... you wouldn't be able to load the T2 crystals without T2 skills anyway.... just like any launcher can load defender missiles, but you can't use them without the defender skill (and I think there are some weird cases with cruise and torps where you can mount the launcher, but not not put any torps or cruise missiles in them)

Again, the fitting benefits are in most cases, simply not there. Basically I'm asking to let people get ~4% more DPS if they add about a billion worth of ISK to their loot piñata that is their missioning BS/T3.

Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
T2 guns still require their relevant skill be trained to 5. You just spend less time getting to that size. There's no reason to boost faction guns.

For T2 large guns, the training time has been more than halved.... and if you consider what I actually proposed, Faction guns would have no "buff" at all until one has trained the T2 skills.
Anomaly One
Doomheim
#12 - 2013-11-17 09:01:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Anomaly One
No, T2 always was for specialization.

Maybe for officer since it would be nice seeing more idiots people use them on smaller ships (more loot yay!) but even then no.

Never forget. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8sfaN8zT8E http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5l_ZjVyRxx4 Trust me, I'm an Anomaly. DUST 514 FOR PC
Gigan Amilupar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2013-11-17 09:12:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Gigan Amilupar
Verity Sovereign wrote:


Gigan Amilupar wrote:
More than that, it's a valid point that the strength of faction gear is the reduction in fitting costs, not actual stats or capability. At least it is for faction guns. I know the faction hardeners and the like are just as good as their T2 counterparts, but since we are not seeing such a radical difference in performance between T2 hardeners and their T1 counterparts I think it's fine (The difference between T1 and T2 guns can be hundreds of DPS, where as the difference between meta 4 and T2 hardeners is generally a few percent. Definitely worth training, but not as huge of a gap as with guns).


#1) For most faction guns (I think Arty excepted?), the faction guns have the PG requirements of T2 guns - you save a bit on CPU over T2, but that has never mattered in any of my fits. If they had the T1 PG requirements, that would be a valid argument, but they don't, they are nearly as hard to fit as T2 guns, and always harder to fit than Meta 4 guns.

#2) You talk of hundred of DPS... and a few percent in resists. Learn to maths.
50 vs 55% resists means 50% vs 45% incoming damage - thats 11.1% more EHP against a damage type. In comparison, T2 guns at spec V do ~10% more damage. T2 vs meta 4 tanking mods results in thousnads more EHP against your hundred or so more DPS, they are basically the same when one looks at percentages.

For T2 large guns, the training time has been more than halved.... and if you consider what I actually proposed, Faction guns would have no "buff" at all until one has trained the T2 skills.


For #1, I'll half agree with you. While it's true that there are plenty of situations where a few CPU don't affect the fit, there are also plenty of situations where it does. I currently have to use a CN hardener on my tengu because a regular T2 hardener puts me over CPU wise by a fraction of a percent. More so, the trend I have noticed with faction gear is that it generally has a lower CPU cost and the same PG cost as it's counterpart, so I don't really buy the argument that meta 4's are harder to fit. But whether or not the CPU and PG requirements of faction guns should be altered is the subject of what should be another thread.

As for #2, I'm inclined to disagree. While thousands of EHP does matter, we're talking about pen and paper numbers here. T2 weapons provide much more in terms of damage application due to the choices between long and short range ammo, and proper use of it can provide, yes, a difference in hundreds of DPS. In addition to that, this flexibility does come with an overall damage increase with say, short range ammo compared to faction ammo as far as the just math goes, which would make this undeniably a buff to faction weapons. The only way I could support faction weapons using T2 ammo is if the training requirements were the same and a (rather dramatic) cost increase was implemented to counteract the improved usefulness. This would basically turn faction guns from better T1 guns into better T2 guns, and I think that is not what you set out to do in this thread, and again, would be it's own subject for debate in a different one.
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2013-11-18 07:38:11 UTC
Gigan Amilupar wrote:
Verity Sovereign wrote:


Gigan Amilupar wrote:
More than that, it's a valid point that the strength of faction gear is the reduction in fitting costs, not actual stats or capability. At least it is for faction guns. I know the faction hardeners and the like are just as good as their T2 counterparts, but since we are not seeing such a radical difference in performance between T2 hardeners and their T1 counterparts I think it's fine (The difference between T1 and T2 guns can be hundreds of DPS, where as the difference between meta 4 and T2 hardeners is generally a few percent. Definitely worth training, but not as huge of a gap as with guns).


#1) For most faction guns (I think Arty excepted?), the faction guns have the PG requirements of T2 guns - you save a bit on CPU over T2, but that has never mattered in any of my fits. If they had the T1 PG requirements, that would be a valid argument, but they don't, they are nearly as hard to fit as T2 guns, and always harder to fit than Meta 4 guns.

#2) You talk of hundred of DPS... and a few percent in resists. Learn to maths.
50 vs 55% resists means 50% vs 45% incoming damage - thats 11.1% more EHP against a damage type. In comparison, T2 guns at spec V do ~10% more damage. T2 vs meta 4 tanking mods results in thousnads more EHP against your hundred or so more DPS, they are basically the same when one looks at percentages.

For T2 large guns, the training time has been more than halved.... and if you consider what I actually proposed, Faction guns would have no "buff" at all until one has trained the T2 skills.


For #1, I'll half agree with you. While it's true that there are plenty of situations where a few CPU don't affect the fit, there are also plenty of situations where it does. I currently have to use a CN hardener on my tengu because a regular T2 hardener puts me over CPU wise by a fraction of a percent. More so, the trend I have noticed with faction gear is that it generally has a lower CPU cost and the same PG cost as it's counterpart, so I don't really buy the argument that meta 4's are harder to fit. But whether or not the CPU and PG requirements of faction guns should be altered is the subject of what should be another thread.

As for #2, I'm inclined to disagree. While thousands of EHP does matter, we're talking about pen and paper numbers here. T2 weapons provide much more in terms of damage application due to the choices between long and short range ammo, and proper use of it can provide, yes, a difference in hundreds of DPS. In addition to that, this flexibility does come with an overall damage increase with say, short range ammo compared to faction ammo as far as the just math goes, which would make this undeniably a buff to faction weapons. The only way I could support faction weapons using T2 ammo is if the training requirements were the same and a (rather dramatic) cost increase was implemented to counteract the improved usefulness. This would basically turn faction guns from better T1 guns into better T2 guns, and I think that is not what you set out to do in this thread, and again, would be it's own subject for debate in a different one.



I didn't say meta 4 was harder to fit, I said it was easier in all cases.

And Faction guns are expensive enough already, so if the training time is the same as T2.... why not.
Given the cost (or rather, material/tag requirements), faction guns are way to expensive for what you get: something that does 4-5% more DPS than meta 4, and is harder to fit than meta 4.
Electrique Wizard
Mutually Lucrative Business Proposals
#15 - 2013-11-18 09:15:27 UTC
How about give faction/officer weapons +5-10% bonus when using faction ammo?

I am the Zodiac, I am the stars, You are the sorceress, my priestess of Mars, Queen of the night, swathed in satin black, Your ivory flesh upon my torture rack.
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2013-11-18 14:13:52 UTC
Because I dislike set bonuses.....

The implant sets are bad enough....

However, I can also propose a compromise: Pirate faction guns are T2, empire faction guns remain unchanged.
novellus
The Special Snowflakes
#17 - 2013-11-18 14:34:12 UTC
Wait, people use faction guns?

Hmm ...Well maybe that's the point of this thread.