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Balancing Feedback: Tier3 Battlecruisers

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Jhagiti Tyran
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#821 - 2011-11-19 10:25:11 UTC
Rip Minner wrote:
Jhagiti Tyran wrote:
Rip Minner wrote:
Why do all Caldari pilots think that Crap Hybirds are the main weapon sytem of Gallente it's not its are secondary weapon system too. Drones are the main Gallente weapon system.


Count how many drone focused/bonused Gallente ships there are and how many hyrbid focused/bonused ships there are and then think about it a little bit. Also way to sextuple post, there is an edit button so have a think about that to.



And also instead of counting how many Hybird bonus ships there are why not try looking into the fact that only One hybird ships at each tech level and class are used and only one drone ship is used in each class.

Then take another step back to get a even better look at what Gallente ships are truely being used.

Can you guess what the most used Gallente ships are? Dominix? Myrmidon? Vexor? Ishtar? Lachesis/Arazu witch are EW ships.

And I will be truethfull and say I dont know much about how the Gallente frigs work as I only ever fly the Covert Ops ones both for bomber and scaning.

And weather or not Hybirds have been broken for the last two years makes no differnts becouse Drones have been broken over the last two years as well with no good way to raise are Drone dps to match that of projectiles and lazers.

No drone hardwiring.

No drone dmg modules or a rework of drone ships to double the bandwidth and bays and adding drone control units to them. Ether way this would go along way bring drone dps up to par with Projectiles and Lazers. The drone dmg modules should be low slots like all other dmg modules and probly would be both the best for lag and easyest for all to grasp and understand.

Only Sentry drone dmg rigs.

No tech 2 drone modules at least till this expation but then again Hybirds probly got buffed around as much as drones did by finely get tech 2 modules.


You still don't get it, hybrids are the primary Gallente weapon. What next? are you going to claim that Minmatars primary weapon are missiles because some of their ships have missile bonuses? Or maybe Amarr use drones as a primary weapon, they have something which even Gallente don't, ships with no weapon apart from the bonused drones.

Your idea of focusing the Talos on drones is a bad idea to, if it was drone specialised it could very well end up completely useless outside of solo or very small gang PvP.
JessiJames
Bats Country
#822 - 2011-11-19 11:07:33 UTC
Cap Tyrian wrote:
This is a hard read, you found the Talos to be "hopelessly underperforming" so your "drastically" buffing it with 25m3 of meaningless drones. 5 small drones may scar a t1 frig, 5 small ecm drones may give you a chance of running away from that lonely anything.

But as you stated its "a good compromise for the time being" that reads to me like-
-Here this is the Talos, it is a bit broken but maybe someday someone may fix it, but don't give it too much hope.

Its a new ship, can you not at least motivate me buy make it look usable for at least some rear specific occasions on paper, to get me enthusiastic enough to go and find out how useless it is in space.

Let's take this argumentation a step further and assume someone someday fixes armor tanking.
The Talos has roughly 10k ehp with lvl5 skills no tank mods, a rack of 1400mm would 1shot it easily. Ad all active armor tank and no damage mods and it would survive 9.5sec

Unless some new hull tanking mods are FOTM it has a dramatic weakness to alpha, making winmatar even better.

Would only the web bonus without the drones make it OP? Maybe, but it would at least be usable for something.



qft
JessiJames
Bats Country
#823 - 2011-11-19 11:16:30 UTC  |  Edited by: JessiJames
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

TALOS

•General efficiency: we do realize it suffers from some problems next to the other hulls. Unfortunately, ...the real issue here comes from blasters,.... Thus, this is little more that can be done by tweaking the hull itself,...:
•Damage projection: blasters have issues projecting damage.... The issue is also widened because blasters benefit less from tracking enhancers and falloff related bonuses than their Minmatar close weapon counterpart.
•Mobility and armor tanking conflicts with each other: no surprise here, .... Also let's not forget Minmatar ships are usually faster by design, while Gallente use the shortest weapon system.
•Lack of usefulness in gang/fleet engagements: ... blaster ships are found lacking in gang warfare, ...

So yes, we are aware of all of that..., what you must understand here, is that there is no magic trick we can pull out of our hats to fix all these issues instantly, as they require looking into massively complex tasks ...
For instance,..:
• ..can we add even more falloff to blasters, knowing it may be over-inflating the balance of power again?
• Don't we need to have a look at shield extenders/armor plates ... passive tanking...active tanking ... NOS/Neuts ... Cap boosters... Overheating?
• Can we make Gallente ships faster .. Wouldn't that be defeating the original design goals for Minmatar ships?


NAGA
• Why removing the torpedo explosion velocity? It was removed as it was making this ship too useful..
• Cruise missiles...they have a fairly long range, within which the Naga doesn't have to worry about capacitor or transversal velocity
• Mobility: Naga can use points above to deliver long range constant damage while being quite difficult to catch itself


TORNADO:
Is it overpowered? Well, that's tied to the comments made on the Talos...



I think i can sum that up for you:

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Balancing is hard. In fact it is so mindboggling difficult that the people in charge always hang out with the graphics designers and look at the new awesome models instead.


Well done.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#824 - 2011-11-19 11:23:00 UTC
OT Smithers wrote:
Caldari are reported to be the most commonly played race in the game.

Historically many Caldari players have not invested valuable training time into hybrids for obvious reasons. 1. Caldari's main weapon is missiles, 2. Hybrids have always sucked, 3. Caldari Hybrid boats are unimpressive. Prior to this announcement only an idiot Caldari pilot would have invested the time to train hybrids.


This argument can be condensed to:

"Nobody uses Caldari railboats because they're rubbish. Since nobody uses them, there's no point in fixing them".

Now apply that argument to your stance on BS-class missiles.
Phantomania
Lonely Trek
#825 - 2011-11-19 11:50:03 UTC


So......

Can we agree that my idea of having the Missile Hard Points put back is a good idea?

At least Heavy Missile Launchers can be put on too and the Hybrid Naga keeps its bonus's!

Big smile
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#826 - 2011-11-19 12:14:54 UTC
Phantomania wrote:


So......

Can we agree that my idea of having the Missile Hard Points put back is a good idea?

At least Heavy Missile Launchers can be put on too and the Hybrid Naga keeps its bonus's!

Big smile

I, for one, support the right of caldari pilots to failfit their ships. We don't have enough funny killmails as it.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
Phantomania
Lonely Trek
#827 - 2011-11-19 12:26:04 UTC
Jack Dant wrote:
Phantomania wrote:


So......

Can we agree that my idea of having the Missile Hard Points put back is a good idea?

At least Heavy Missile Launchers can be put on too and the Hybrid Naga keeps its bonus's!

Big smile

I, for one, support the right of caldari pilots to failfit their ships. We don't have enough funny killmails as it.



we'll see! Blink
Gecko O'Bac
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#828 - 2011-11-19 12:56:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Gecko O'Bac
Since there is a new version of pyfa, I messed around a bit with it to see if I could come up with something better than I put up in game... Seems I couldn't... Here's the fit, am I missing something?


[Naga, Naga fit]

425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L

10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II
Sensor Booster II
Tracking Computer II

Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Reactor Control Unit II

Medium Hybrid Collision Accelerator I
Medium Hybrid Metastasis Adjuster I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I

1386 m/s top speed, 23.4k ehp (uniform spread), 715 dps on lvl 5 skills with CN antimatter, 725 with Javelin, 415 with Spike. That's without taking into account reload time, which will lower a little the dps. Even with named mods you can't lose the current router rig, since it'd require a 5% grid implant (3.10% grid needed actually -_-')

This is, of course, a fleet sniper fit. Tracking computer may or may not be necessary... A little bit of tracking helps I guess. One could substitute a hardener, but I guess it comes down more to taste than to an effective difference.

All in all doesn't seem that bad...

(Edit: with the tracking computer on, against an identical naga, MWDing at full speed perfectly transversal you get a top dps of around 600ish, at slightly over your optimal range. For more comparisons just import the fit into pyfa)

(Edit2: with optimal range script and CN iridium, you get a 150km optimal and 417 dps, more than spike without the useless range and the tracking malus. It's actually quite a good trade off)
wiersma
Space Bacteria Research
#829 - 2011-11-19 14:09:02 UTC
the rokh is a rare ship to see just because its a rail ship..
i would fly it all day long if it was a missile boat.

same will go for the naga if it stays a rail ship..
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#830 - 2011-11-19 14:24:43 UTC
Rokh won't get used because the optimal bonus makes it a long range ship.

On TQ it is very very rare to see any important battles with long range battleships as they just don't work with the current game mechanics. Being super difficult to pin people at sniping range and getting probed in 30 seconds just isn't worth it in big, slow and expensive ships.

Also having a optimal range makes the Rokh unable to compete short range as everything else does at least 25% more damage and don't forget on TQ hybrids still stink.

Making everything a missile boat is NOT the solution. Look at the raven and tell me why they aren't used much for PvP if missiles are so great?
The only reason Drakes work is because of ALPHA combined with TANK being able to save many of them with logistics.

Pinky
Alsyth
#831 - 2011-11-19 14:44:51 UTC
Pinky Denmark wrote:
Making everything a missile boat is NOT the solution. Look at the raven and tell me why they aren't used much for PvP if missiles are so great?
The only reason Drakes work is because of ALPHA combined with TANK being able to save many of them with logistics.


Raven sucks because BS-sized missiles suck.

Drake works because HML are rather good (balance of range, ability to hit stuff for meaningful damage, raw dps not too bad), not because of its tank. The tank is the reason for the Drake being used in DrakeBLOBS and soloHAMdrakes.

Give us a Drake without tank bonuses, and only dps bonus like the cane has, it will be flown. Will only be harder to honor tank it :-)
Wylee Coyote
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#832 - 2011-11-19 15:40:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Wylee Coyote
Jhagiti Tyran wrote:

You still don't get it, hybrids are the primary Gallente weapon. What next? are you going to claim that Minmatars primary weapon are missiles because some of their ships have missile bonuses? Or maybe Amarr use drones as a primary weapon, they have something which even Gallente don't, ships with no weapon apart from the bonused drones.


Myrmidon.

Jhagiti Tyran wrote:
Your idea of focusing the Talos on drones is a bad idea to, if it was drone specialised it could very well end up completely useless outside of solo or very small gang PvP.


Considering that solo and small gang pvp are the two types of pvp that players clamour the most (as far as I've read/seen in game and on the forums) for better quality/more of, how is that bad?
Phantomania
Lonely Trek
#833 - 2011-11-19 15:58:53 UTC
Its clear,

Missiles won't get any love this expansion.

Tourettes get everything, New Ships, Balancing, GFX.

Missiles are still broken, they have no visual launcher, no animation, no preview icon, hell, they still fire out of nowhere in the middle of the ships!


thx Cry
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#834 - 2011-11-19 16:14:59 UTC
HA HA - You are whining like my 6 year old kid... Give it time and CCP will attend the visual launcher thing. Tbh missiles seems pretty balanced to me all around except light missiles. They are just different and NO race is forced to use missiles. They are even if you pretend it's wrong a secondary weapon system with a few ships using it as their primary...
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#835 - 2011-11-19 16:23:44 UTC
Phantomania wrote:
Its clear,

Missiles won't get any love this expansion.

Tourettes get everything, New Ships, Balancing, GFX.

Missiles are still broken, they have no visual launcher, no animation, no preview icon, hell, they still fire out of nowhere in the middle of the ships!


thx Cry


Nobody really cares about missile graphics. And having visible launchers just makes it blindingly obvious when you're trying to bait a frigate with an AML Drake, for example, it'll be a small nerf to missile users.

Oh wait, I forgot, rats in L4 missions don't change their behaviour based on what missiles you're using. Lol
Phantomania
Lonely Trek
#836 - 2011-11-19 16:24:16 UTC
Pinky Denmark wrote:
HA HA - You are whining like my 6 year old kid... Give it time and CCP will attend the visual launcher thing. Tbh missiles seems pretty balanced to me all around except light missiles. They are just different and NO race is forced to use missiles. They are even if you pretend it's wrong a secondary weapon system with a few ships using it as their primary...



You called yourself Pinky, need I say more? Roll
Phantomania
Lonely Trek
#837 - 2011-11-19 16:27:01 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Phantomania wrote:
Its clear,

Missiles won't get any love this expansion.

Tourettes get everything, New Ships, Balancing, GFX.

Missiles are still broken, they have no visual launcher, no animation, no preview icon, hell, they still fire out of nowhere in the middle of the ships!


thx Cry


Nobody really cares about missile graphics. And having visible launchers just makes it blindingly obvious when you're trying to bait a frigate with an AML Drake, for example, it'll be a small nerf to missile users.

Oh wait, I forgot, rats in L4 missions don't change their behaviour based on what missiles you're using. Lol



You can't even figure out how to take a decent picture of your toon! Roll
True Killjoy
Baba Yagas
The Initiative.
#838 - 2011-11-19 17:27:52 UTC
Phantomania. My mother once told me "if you have nothing constructive to say, say nothing."


I think you should also take that advice to heart, as of right now you are just making a big fool out of yourself.



Back on topic..


Tornado with hail and the falloff ship bonus is way way over the top, CCP.
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#839 - 2011-11-19 19:00:23 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:
Good god... you people. How how HOW can you complain about two new ships using hybrids and advocate for the new Gallente / Caldari BCs to use drones / missiles?

Have you ever ~*used*~ drones or missiles in PvP? They're absolutely terrible! Drones are glitchy, subject to being killed quickly and easily independently of their carrier, and hampered with speed and tracking problems that make them ineffective combat tools. Missiles, aside from heavies, are utter **** for PvP as well-- first there's the travel time problem, then there's the fact that none of the non-medium missile systems do any damage. Rockets and lights are just pathetically awful in terms of DPS and their ability to hit their intended (small, fast moving) targets for decent damage. Cruises / torps are similarly useless in that they can't do proper damage to anything other than battleships or larger.

There's a reason you don't see fleets of Ravens and Dominixes (the two month obsession with Das Boot fleets aside) on the field. Drones suck. Rockets suck. Light missiles suck. Cruises are at best "not good." Torps are almost completely worthless vs things smaller than POS. Only heavy missiles are anywhere near useful for PvP, which, when combined with the absolutely broken stats on the tier 2 Caldari BC is why 3/4 of EVE PvP these days consists of DrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakes.

Drones and missiles are bad for PvP. If a moronic subset of Caldari pilots really wishes to saddle themselves with yet another missile boat, fine, but leave Gallente out of it. I'll keep my blasters, thanks very much.

By the way, this is coming from someone who has (between all characters) every cruiser 5, all battleship 5's, and has flown ships from all races. It's not like I don't speak from experience.


O yes Drones must suck for pvp they suck so bad that they had to take them off of every Super Carrier and Carrier and then had to put them back on Carriers so they would not be about worthless. So ya your so right drones just totaly suck as pvp weapons.

And on top of that Drones have been broken over the last two years same as hybirds. No tech 2 Modules No Drone dmg modules no Drone hardwireing only Drone dmg rig is for Senterys. Meaning that the only reason Dominix's are not used much on the Battle field is becouse drone dps has been left behind to rot even as all other weapon systems are geting boosted though the roof.

And last I heared as I dont fly any races frigates much that Caldari missile frigates were doing just fine now after the last frigate class missile ajustments.

Ravens are not on the battle field in any meaningfull way becouse Battle ship Missiles and there platforms are broken. There is a glearing lack of a Tech 1 battle ships with 8xMissile hardpoints and both Cruise/Torps fly to there targets way to slow. Both are fairly easy fixs. Add two missile hard points to the raven with the needed cpu/gride for them and inc trop speed/cut fly time to keep same range and Drastly inc Cruiser speed and cut fly time to keep same range.

There mite be a few more tweaks needed for BS missiles but thoughs two are the primay problems.

At least were geting Tech 2 Drone modules at last.

And by the way I to can fly every sub capital ship and use there weapons and EW as well so I too speak from experience.

How ever I'm not one much for flying in small gank squads with witch no one has ever sayed blaster boats suck at. In fact it's the only thing there good at. And rails still just fail.

This are just facts why try twisting the true of things.

Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#840 - 2011-11-19 19:03:42 UTC
wiersma wrote:
the rokh is a rare ship to see just because its a rail ship..
i would fly it all day long if it was a missile boat.

same will go for the naga if it stays a rail ship..


Ok. One last f*cking time. The naga is a HYBRID ship. Not rails only. Get this straight.

The problems with the Rokh don't entirely stem from it being a Hybrid boat. there's a big thread about it on this very subforum. Part of it really has to do with the fact that it's trying to be an Abaddon only with shields and hybrids and isn't succeeding. Making every Caldari ship use missiles won't fix Caldari.

It will make Caldari truly PvE only, and I will not allow that. I am very strongly against partitioning factions into different kinds of gameplay. As it stands, the sandbox of EVE isn't really a sandbox, because in order to PvP, you almost have to fly Minmatar or Amarr, though you can get away with Caldari ECM ships in a support role. This is not a sandbox. This is pretty much every other MMO. What I want to be able to do, is have absolutely no real matter whether or not I ruin someone's day using a Blaster Moa, a 220 AC Rupture, or a rail Thorax. I want to be able to choose a ship, fly it as it's design intends with it's weapon type, and regardless of ship and opponent(s), actually have a chance at winning because a ship's stats aren't skewed towards PvP or PvE performance.

Your suggestion of making everything missiles for Caldari would then make Amarr, Gallente and Minmatar the pool of PvP factions, and if you're Caldari and want to PVP, tough luck- Crosstrain, or all you get is ECMs. I don't see why I need to spend several months skilling for another faction's ships just to engage in the another form of gameplay.

Now I'm aware that there are missile ships (or is it just ship?) that are good in PvP, that being the Drake, but that's ONE ship. It offers no variability in what the player could do succeed in PvP. Not to mention, the Drake is a serious bore to fly in PvP.