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CCP we want parity in EVE and DUST514, not special protections for corps with DUST members!
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Jihad Destroyer 011011
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2013-11-10 21:41:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Jihad Destroyer 011011
KuroVolt wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
KuroVolt wrote:
So why would they actually want to STOP it from happening in Dust?

If they lose many more players, they might actually have to admit DUST 514 is a spectacular failure.

So now they are protecting what they have left, which still looks like an old rotting corpse to everyone but CCP.


But they might actually gain members and revitalise the current members interest in the game.

Contrary to popular belief, the players that have stuck around are the ones that WANT to be part of the EVE universe, the average shooter fans have long given up on the game anyway.



There is a lot of evidence which supports that those that left would do so no matter what to chase the next "shiny object" console game. Within the console gaming culture there is a lot of that.

I highly doubt they would have stuck around unless there was something it was giving them that outweighed their motivations to brag about how they were already on the next hot game and about to beat it.

The die hards... well they will recruit more die hards... just like in EVE.
Alt Two
Caldari Capital Construction Inc.
#22 - 2013-11-10 21:48:00 UTC
KuroVolt wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
KuroVolt wrote:
So why would they actually want to STOP it from happening in Dust?

If they lose many more players, they might actually have to admit DUST 514 is a spectacular failure.

So now they are protecting what they have left, which still looks like an old rotting corpse to everyone but CCP.


But they might actually gain members and revitalise the current members interest in the game.

Contrary to popular belief, the players that have stuck around are the ones that WANT to be part of the EVE universe, the average shooter fans have long given up on the game anyway.

CCP is falling in to the same trap that every other developer of a failing mmo has been doing. I give it a few months more until we'll see World of Free Stuff For Everyone DustCraft514.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#23 - 2013-11-10 22:11:56 UTC
Or possibly.... CCP is not 'falling into the same trap'
But taking steps because the player base is becoming increasingly hostile to each other and using lower & lower tricks to exploit the system.
Look at yourselves first before you start blaming CCP.
SpaceSaft
Almost Dangerous
Wolves Amongst Strangers
#24 - 2013-11-10 22:14:20 UTC
I'm with OP on this one. It doesn't matter if it's just one instance. This was a forseeable action for which there have to be policies in place that probably were used in this case. The whole idea of Dust is that it's not just an FPS. The whole idea behind linking Dust to Eve is to create that kind of complexity. So why would CCP destroy the one thing that it has to set itself apart from other games? I have no idea.
Frying Doom
#25 - 2013-11-10 22:17:02 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Or possibly.... CCP is not 'falling into the same trap'
But taking steps because the player base is becoming increasingly hostile to each other and using lower & lower tricks to exploit the system.
Look at yourselves first before you start blaming CCP.

A PvP based game where players are becoming hostile to each other

Who would have thunk itLol

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Xearal
Dead's Prostitutes
The Initiative.
#26 - 2013-11-10 22:18:04 UTC
While I disapprove of having GMs step in and help dust bunnies who've been a victim of Eve polictics, after reading how it was done, I conclude that Dust mercs simply do not have the proper tools to deal with a threat such as this, so the GMs stepping in aren't entirely wrong.

What SHOULD be done imho, is make the corp mechanics in Dust work the same way as in Eve, so dust bunnies have all the tools and abilities available to them when it comes to corp mechanics as Eve players. This is the only way that you can fight off a capsuleer from using corporate mechanics to mess up dust corps.

The fact that dust corps operate differently, without shares and whatnot, but as soon as an Eve player gets anywhere in the corp things get switched over into the Eve mechanics, which makes it a whole different ballpark, the dust bunnies are basicly screwed, and there's nothing they can do about it. Add in to this that if they wish to work together with Eve players to form an alliance and such, they NEED an Eve player to help out, things become utterly stupid.

Does railgun ammunition come in Hollow Point?
Anomaly One
Doomheim
#27 - 2013-11-10 22:24:48 UTC
well, page 8, 7th post , https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=119973&p=8

NanoCleric wrote:
Just a quick update all...

I logged on tonight to check if Vala had the corp back and she hasn't.

I have no idea what CCP did to help, but it's not succeeded. When Vala logged on today at the end of the vote timer with the hope she could have her CEO powers unblocked due to the vote ending.. she found that Jihad had control of the corp, which resulted in him kicking the players who have been supporting her.

Now Jihad has transferred CEO to RAider Vherikor and Vala has no control over the corp anymore.

By his own admission on the EVE forums, Jihad has posted announcing the exploit he found and used against DUST CORE, and mentions he has hit multiple corps via this 'bug/exploit' between the games.

CCP This is your own fault for bad coding, and this coming from someone who works in the game industry himself. You have proivided players with no way to defend themselves from espionage in this instance. If they could defend themselves and lost it, then fair enough.. that's the world of New Eden, but due to bad choices, you have given players the ability to ruin someone's hard work without being challenged.

This should be put to rights to undo your mistake, to reinstate control of the corps to their owners. As mentioned.. i would support the espionage if it was fair and Dust CEO's had mechanics to defend themselves. Since there are no mechanics to do such, then you should put these to rights, and put in defenses against it. Any other course of action imho is down to negligence.

So sorry.. despite CCP claiming they have helped, The theft was successful.
Jihad Destroyer 011011
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2013-11-10 22:27:25 UTC
Xearal wrote:
While I disapprove of having GMs step in and help dust bunnies who've been a victim of Eve polictics, after reading how it was done, I conclude that Dust mercs simply do not have the proper tools to deal with a threat such as this, so the GMs stepping in aren't entirely wrong.

What SHOULD be done imho, is make the corp mechanics in Dust work the same way as in Eve, so dust bunnies have all the tools and abilities available to them when it comes to corp mechanics as Eve players. This is the only way that you can fight off a capsuleer from using corporate mechanics to mess up dust corps.

The fact that dust corps operate differently, without shares and whatnot, but as soon as an Eve player gets anywhere in the corp things get switched over into the Eve mechanics, which makes it a whole different ballpark, the dust bunnies are basicly screwed, and there's nothing they can do about it. Add in to this that if they wish to work together with Eve players to form an alliance and such, they NEED an Eve player to help out, things become utterly stupid.


I would like to point out the CEO has an EVE alt which was in the corp, along with many experienced EVE players... to call this a DUST corp would be an incorrect statement. It was indeed a hybrid corp from both platforms.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#29 - 2013-11-10 22:35:11 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Interesting reads.

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1473172#post1473172
CCPNullarbor wrote:
The shares and voting system is complicated and we purposefully did not include any of this in DUST. However once you have a mixed corporation you need to understand the implications of having both games involved.


On one hand we have the "spirit of EVE". On the other we have DUST. Is it really a good idea to hotdrop the Dusties (aka a FPS console game) with full blown EVE mechanics (i.e. villainy) and excessive complexity? I can see arguments for both sides; integrating with EVE means working in a cold dark untrusting universe, however, it's a damn FPS console game with a different audience, different attention span, limited user interface, etc..

Does CCP want DUST to be as cold and harsh as EVE (i.e. have the same audience, potentially a small niche) or do they want to expand their audience with DUST? If it's the latter, then CCP will need to make DUST less vulnerable (or more buffered/firewalled) to the harshness of EVE.



DUST is integrated into EVE and actions in DUST can affect EVE itself, so yes DUST should get the exact same treatment and risks.
Ghost Phius
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2013-11-11 01:15:19 UTC
Just another daily example of CCP's lack of integrity. Well, at least now CCP can be viewed without those awful rose colored glasses some view them with.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#31 - 2013-11-11 03:48:14 UTC
Don't worry.

Four months after the PS4 comes out, no one will be playing on their PS3.

Problem solved.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server
Lugia3
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2013-11-11 06:41:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugia3
That DUST forum thread... Pure gold!

"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik
WInter Borne
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#33 - 2013-11-13 18:51:31 UTC
Stop playing dust and just let it die?
Crasniya
The Aussienauts
#34 - 2013-11-13 20:41:34 UTC
WInter Borne wrote:
Stop playing dust and just let it die?


Um... why? It's more fun than EVE is right now.

Soraya Xel - Council of Planetary Management 1 - soraya@biomassed.net
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#35 - 2013-11-13 20:46:41 UTC
Its time to add Helmets and bubblewrap to the Eve store and NEX.


Oh wait...that right, life is rough, so CCP is building the knee pads, helmets, and someone to kiss the boo-boos right into the game now.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#36 - 2013-11-13 21:08:24 UTC
I'm kind of bothered by this "meta game" stuff.


Is using meta game elements OK? Apparently this has been so in Eve. But DUST has not yet seen much of this (do I understand this right?)


To say that metagaming in a sandbox is OK may imply that it's OK to leave the sandbox and waylay someone who kicked your sandcastle in the parking lot, or spare your sandcastle by nailing the door of their house shut later.


but stoicfaux points out that this is a different crowd. Indeed it is. If I had to put up with "Eve stuff" to do FPS, I'd play another FPS. People come to Eve to play Eve, and to FPS to kill and be killed with more simplicity. Adding espionage and subterfuge to an FPS might be unwise.

We should recall that old DUST video where the guy on the ground is asking for backup and the guy in the station is hanging his ground pounders out to dry (whilst a gun is being aimed at his head unknowingly). Perhaps it was once intended for Eve players to do the dirty underhanded stuff that DUST players would be a part of, but not necessarily the butt of. Maybe this relationship has failed or never came to be?


Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Sebastien LeReparteur
SpaceTravelers Freelance Corp
#37 - 2013-11-13 21:24:01 UTC
Oh bad would it be to manage the crappy corp system in a console controller!!! Roll

Silly you thinking this is your game... It's CCP's game, dust is a dead on arrival children they are trying to bring to life again. You can;'t have that and have a second entity player base (podders) able to grief the other side.

Pull your head out of your... belief system and feel the vibe. Where you feel this harsh reality is super nice, it also means Eve is a niche game, they don't have to do the same with Dusties
Crasniya
The Aussienauts
#38 - 2013-11-13 21:29:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Crasniya
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
but stoicfaux points out that this is a different crowd. Indeed it is. If I had to put up with "Eve stuff" to do FPS, I'd play another FPS. People come to Eve to play Eve, and to FPS to kill and be killed with more simplicity. Adding espionage and subterfuge to an FPS might be unwise.


The reality check that is needed is this: If CCP was making DUST 514 just to make an FPS, DUST never had a chance. There's way too much money in Battlefield and Call of Duty. It's like trying to get people to watch your sports show while the Superbowl is on. CoD and BF will pretty much always dominate the traditional multiplayer FPS space. (However, the scifi nerds are probably happy to watch scifi instead of the Superbowl.)

DUST is a strategy FPS for people who want a deep rich MMO universe where decisions matter. People play DUST for the sandbox. Because if people were going to play a game for the FPS and the FPS alone, it wouldn't be DUST. CCP doesn't have the resources dedicated to DUST to compete with Call of Duty or Battlefield directly.

Their best bets are:
- Gun gameplay should rely heavily on our scifi genre. Different planet types, varying gravity, stuff that would be out of place in a regular FPS.
- Heavy implementation of the sandbox.

Soraya Xel - Council of Planetary Management 1 - soraya@biomassed.net
Carmen Electra
AlcoDOTTE
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#39 - 2013-11-13 22:06:30 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Or possibly.... CCP is not 'falling into the same trap'
But taking steps because the player base is becoming increasingly hostile to each other and using lower & lower tricks to exploit the system.
Look at yourselves first before you start blaming CCP.


This. I'm having a tough time sympathizing with the OP's botched attempt to mercilessly grief other players. I wonder if EVE's current sociopathic cesspit of a playerbase is really what CCP envisioned in 2003.

Bacon makes us stronger
Kubats Mercia
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2013-11-13 22:31:33 UTC
Crasniya wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
but stoicfaux points out that this is a different crowd. Indeed it is. If I had to put up with "Eve stuff" to do FPS, I'd play another FPS. People come to Eve to play Eve, and to FPS to kill and be killed with more simplicity. Adding espionage and subterfuge to an FPS might be unwise.


The reality check that is needed is this: If CCP was making DUST 514 just to make an FPS, DUST never had a chance. There's way too much money in Battlefield and Call of Duty. It's like trying to get people to watch your sports show while the Superbowl is on. CoD and BF will pretty much always dominate the traditional multiplayer FPS space. (However, the scifi nerds are probably happy to watch scifi instead of the Superbowl.)

DUST is a strategy FPS for people who want a deep rich MMO universe where decisions matter. People play DUST for the sandbox. Because if people were going to play a game for the FPS and the FPS alone, it wouldn't be DUST. CCP doesn't have the resources dedicated to DUST to compete with Call of Duty or Battlefield directly.

Their best bets are:
- Gun gameplay should rely heavily on our scifi genre. Different planet types, varying gravity, stuff that would be out of place in a regular FPS.
- Heavy implementation of the sandbox.


To say people play Dust for the sandbox is naive at best. Dust is only alive due to eve players supporting it so obviously posts like this will be butthurt about gms just like in every anti-carebear post on these forums. So yes you are probably right that this should stop because mainly eve players with a similar mentality play. However, if CCP ever wants dust to be a success and make more money they can't. Why? Because most eve players will not play dust even though most dust players play eve. As such, people coming in are coming from another fps looking for a twist. They want to shoot stuff and do it for a reason in a unique way that dust delivers. Introducing and enforcing a strict sandbox on a Community that is not purely there for the sandbox is going to kill the player base outside of current eve players. Eve is renowned for being the hardest game for new players to pick up and as such has kept the player base tiny compared to other mmo games. In fps gameplay numbers are the lifeblood. It's not an option. CCP didn't throw hundreds of thousands at a new game to emulate eve. It did to make another game type spun off its current universe to draw in new players. If they wanted to just make another eve with guns they would have put it in an expansion. I would find it hilarious if dust did take off forming a unique player base that hated eve babies as much as eve babies hate care bears while having direct influence on eve babies universe. That would make me lol.