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Dev Blog: Better Living Through Mobile Structures

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Author
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#41 - 2013-11-13 20:28:41 UTC
So if I want to kill a <1 million ISK deployable structure i need to shoot it, wait 48 hours, and hope that I come back within 10 minutes of it starting to regen its shields?

That's absurd. Space will be littered with them because they will just not be worth the coordination and effort to take down. They should require some tending to be capable of recharging their shields, and have a 24h reinforcement timer at the maximum.
Iam Widdershins
Victory or Whatever
#42 - 2013-11-13 20:30:41 UTC
CCP Masterplan wrote:
Converting the existing MWDs over to this new system

I know you mean Mobile Warp Disruptor because of context, but this is why we players call them "bubbles" Roll

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Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#43 - 2013-11-13 20:32:21 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
So if I want to kill a <1 million ISK deployable structure i need to shoot it, wait 48 hours, and hope that I come back within 10 minutes of it starting to regen its shields?

That's absurd. Space will be littered with them because they will just not be worth the coordination and effort to take down. They should require some tending to be capable of recharging their shields, and have a 24h reinforcement timer at the maximum.


You know to the second when it will come out of reinforcement.
adriaans
Ankaa.
Nair Al-Zaurak
#44 - 2013-11-13 20:32:52 UTC
What is the duration of the mobile hangar in terms of lifetime?

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#45 - 2013-11-13 20:37:53 UTC
adriaans wrote:
What is the duration of the mobile hangar in terms of lifetime?

30 days it says on the info card. Presumably, this means they have the same behaviour as deployable cans?
Sven Viko VIkolander
Allemannsrett
#46 - 2013-11-13 20:44:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Sven Viko VIkolander
Kahega Amielden wrote:
So if I want to kill a <1 million ISK deployable structure i need to shoot it, wait 48 hours, and hope that I come back within 10 minutes of it starting to regen its shields?

That's absurd. Space will be littered with them because they will just not be worth the coordination and effort to take down. They should require some tending to be capable of recharging their shields, and have a 24h reinforcement timer at the maximum.


Yeah, this is a worry, even if they decay after 30 days like cans if that's correct. I still think the window after reinforcement should be widened, maybe to the point of removing shield recharge altogether.
CCP Masterplan
C C P
C C P Alliance
#47 - 2013-11-13 20:45:34 UTC
Depots will decay 30 days after the owner last interacts with it

"This one time, on patch day..."

@ccp_masterplan  |  Team Five-0: Rewriting the law

Angry Mustache
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#48 - 2013-11-13 20:51:41 UTC
There seems to be a pretty big dichotomy to the way defense of a depot is handled compared to the defense of a mining POS.

From the patch notes, it seems like a depot owner will be able to scoop a reinforced Depot, then immediately re-plonk it to refresh the timer and put all his stuff back in. In essence, as long as you log in once every two days, your mobile depot and the stuff within is Perfectly Safe.

So for Mobile Depots, being "active" enough to defend your depot perfectly means once every two days.

Compare this to the attention needed to defend a Mining POS from siphons. Where the amount of attention needed by the owner to perfectly defend the POS is every time a siphoning alt logs in. This can be once every day, this can be whenever the siphoner feels like it, it is utterly unpredictable, and thanks to "waste" from a siphon, even if the owner checks on the POS before the siphoner returns, he still loses money.

so, the activity time to defend something that
-costs 1 mil
-no upkeep
-anchors in 45 seconds
-requires no skills
-can be anchored anywhere
-needs to be probed down

is 2 days

The activity time needed to defend something that
-costs upwards of a billion
-requires ~350 mil in fuel a month
-anchored at set locations, requires hours to fully anchor
-requires anchoring skills
-requires owner to assemble a fleet to defend

is however much a siphoner wants to log in and drop a siphon.

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Lolmer
Merciless Reckoning
#49 - 2013-11-13 20:51:50 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Lolmer wrote:
Shouldn't all of these deployables require "Anchoring I" trained at the least? They are, after all, being anchored in space. This would also disallow Trial Accounts from using them, which is a Good Thing(TM).


The Anchoring skill is required for the two most advanced of these structures (the Cyno Inhib and Siphon). The Depot and Tractor Unit are intended to be fairly entry level so they do not require skills to deploy.


That's why I said "Anchoring I", the others appear to require "Anchoring III" as they're more advanced. Anchoring is sub million ISK and trains quickly, plus would bar Trial Accounts from anchoring these and make sense in the lore, since they are being anchored in space. How can I anchor that which I do not know how to anchor? Adding "Anchoring I" is a small price to pay for all gain, unless you're a Trial Account. :)
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#50 - 2013-11-13 20:54:27 UTC
Angry Mustache wrote:
There seems to be a pretty big dichotomy to the way defense of a depot is handled compared to the defense of a mining POS.

From the patch notes, it seems like a depot owner will be able to scoop a reinforced Depot, then immediately re-plonk it to refresh the timer and put all his stuff back in. In essence, as long as you log in once every two days, your mobile depot and the stuff within is Perfectly Safe.

So for Mobile Depots, being "active" enough to defend your depot perfectly means once every two days.

Compare this to the attention needed to defend a Mining POS from siphons. Where the amount of attention needed by the owner to perfectly defend the POS is every time a siphoning alt logs in. This can be once every day, this can be whenever the siphoner feels like it, it is utterly unpredictable, and thanks to "waste" from a siphon, even if the owner checks on the POS before the siphoner returns, he still loses money.

so, the activity time to defend something that
-costs 1 mil
-no upkeep
-anchors in 45 seconds
-requires no skills
-can be anchored anywhere
-needs to be probed down

is 2 days

The activity time needed to defend something that
-costs upwards of a billion
-requires ~350 mil in fuel a month
-anchored at set locations, requires hours to fully anchor
-requires anchoring skills
-requires owner to assemble a fleet to defend

is however much a siphoner wants to log in and drop a siphon.


If the Mobile Depot provided anywhere near the strategic value of a POS or provided any income whatsoever that would be an excellent point

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Phoenix Jones
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2013-11-13 20:54:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Phoenix Jones
Angry Mustache wrote:
There seems to be a pretty big dichotomy to the way defense of a depot is handled compared to the defense of a mining POS.

From the patch notes, it seems like a depot owner will be able to scoop a reinforced Depot, then immediately re-plonk it to refresh the timer and put all his stuff back in. In essence, as long as you log in once every two days, your mobile depot and the stuff within is Perfectly Safe.

So for Mobile Depots, being "active" enough to defend your depot perfectly means once every two days.

Compare this to the attention needed to defend a Mining POS from siphons. Where the amount of attention needed by the owner to perfectly defend the POS is every time a siphoning alt logs in. This can be once every day, this can be whenever the siphoner feels like it, it is utterly unpredictable, and thanks to "waste" from a siphon, even if the owner checks on the POS before the siphoner returns, he still loses money.

so, the activity time to defend something that
-costs 1 mil
-no upkeep
-anchors in 45 seconds
-requires no skills
-can be anchored anywhere
-needs to be probed down

is 2 days

The activity time needed to defend something that
-costs upwards of a billion
-requires ~350 mil in fuel a month
-anchored at set locations, requires hours to fully anchor
-requires anchoring skills
-requires owner to assemble a fleet to defend

is however much a siphoner wants to log in and drop a siphon.



And let's say the gankers bubble your mobile depot... The only person that can scoop it is you, and they know its yours. Lapp they have to do is watchlist and wait for you to login.

I can see smart people getting kills over this. But I get your point.

Yaay!!!!

Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#52 - 2013-11-13 21:00:26 UTC
What happens if the mobile depot is getting shot while it's anchoring. Does it go into reinforced ?

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Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#53 - 2013-11-13 21:13:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahega Amielden
Quote:
You know to the second when it will come out of reinforcement.


And the owner has two days to put in a trivial amount of effort to save it, and it costs less than 1 million ISK. Consider that

-You need to spend time finding it and shooting it
-You need to keep track of when it comes out of reinforced, and be there exactly when that happens
-If the owner logs in pretty much at all you will fail
-Even if you do kill it, you will probably have done little good other than costing the other person an absolutely trivial amount of time and money.


Taking one down, as the mechanics exist today, is a giant pain in the ass for no real gain.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#54 - 2013-11-13 21:15:27 UTC
Altrue wrote:
What happens if the mobile depot is getting shot while it's anchoring. Does it go into reinforced ?


No, if shot below 25% shield during the activation period it does not enter reinforced mode and can be killed immediately.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Sofia Wolf
Ubuntu Inc.
The Fourth District
#55 - 2013-11-13 21:16:51 UTC
MCI is fairly pointless because of miserable EHP, excessive onlineing time, and deployment restrictions. MTU is just bad idea as I elaborated here. MD and MSU are all in all good. Overall grade for CCP devs on this mobile structure projects is C-. I hope you do better next time.

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Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#56 - 2013-11-13 21:30:15 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:

Taking one down, as the mechanics exist today, is a giant pain in the ass for no real gain.


I think that's the point. If they're supposed to facilitate guerilla warfare, they need to be hard to get rid of.

---
Speaking of, does CCP have any ambitions for a larger mobile depot that can store ships effectively? The depot is handy, but something which allows ship storage is really going to be necessary for proper space colonization.
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
#57 - 2013-11-13 21:37:57 UTC
Can someone flagged as criminal use a mobile depot to un-fit modules, so to avoid losing them to CONCORD? Would that be considered evading CONCORD as all the value used in the gank is not subject to CONCORD destruction? In most cases the modules are worth far more then the hull.

Actually thinking about this, the time it takes to unfit all your modules is rather long. I doubt you would get very far before you die. But if I'm out mining and a Tornado warps in and drops a depot; I think Ill leave before it becomes active. But still inquiring minds want to know.

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Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#58 - 2013-11-13 21:45:02 UTC
Currently two tractor units at range of eachothers end up, at some point or another, to exchange their wrecks repeatedly. Is it an inteded mechanic to prevent the use of multiple tractor structure at the same point ?

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Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#59 - 2013-11-13 21:57:05 UTC
Quote:
I think that's the point. If they're supposed to facilitate guerilla warfare, they need to be hard to get rid of.



That's fine, but they cost under a million ISK. Even if you go through all the effort of removing one, it's completely and utterly meaningless because they're so easy to replace. Hell, why bother even storing them for the long term? Just bring them out whenever you go roaming, drop it when you need it, and scoop it when you're done. Or just leave it in the off chance you don't have one later.

I can easily see space being absolutely littered with these .
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
#60 - 2013-11-13 22:00:52 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Quote:
I think that's the point. If they're supposed to facilitate guerilla warfare, they need to be hard to get rid of.



That's fine, but they cost under a million ISK. Even if you go through all the effort of removing one, it's completely and utterly meaningless because they're so easy to replace. Hell, why bother even storing them for the long term? Just bring them out whenever you go roaming, drop it when you need it, and scoop it when you're done. Or just leave it in the off chance you don't have one later.

I can easily see space being absolutely littered with these .

Its an issue. Also its been suggested that if you want to have a home in hostile space you use a GSC and store the depot in the GSC. Only bring it out when you want to refit. This has the advantage that the GSC cannot be probed out.

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