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Where are the CSM 8 Summer summit minutes ?

First post First post First post
Author
Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
#1 - 2013-11-13 16:37:33 UTC
Dear CCP,


Where are the CSM 8 summer summit minutes ?

It's already wintertime in the northern hemisphere and Rubicon is about to launch in less then a week Roll

Eve online is :

A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online

D) CCP Games Pay to Win at skill leveling, with instant gratification

http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg

http://bit.ly/1egr4mF

Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2 - 2013-11-13 16:53:59 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#3 - 2013-11-13 17:02:09 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Once again, CCP's actions say far more than words.

According to at least one CSM members' blog, the papers are sitting on some CCP employee's desk.
Who knows when they will get to them. Likely , shortly before CCP issues their dev blog about what happened in the Live Event planning.

*Snip* Please refrain from spreading baseless rumors. ISD Ezwal
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#4 - 2013-11-13 17:05:13 UTC
In light of what's happened in the time since, these minutes are irrelevant utterly.

(sigh) It's all getting uncomfortably weird tbh.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882

Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
#5 - 2013-11-13 18:20:36 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Once again, CCP's actions say far more than words.


In this particular case, I would say lack of swift action

Minute writing 101:

Prepare the minutes as soon as possible after the meeting while the information is still fresh in your mind.

How can CCP still approve these minutes when it has literally been MONTHS Ugh

Eve online is :

A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online

D) CCP Games Pay to Win at skill leveling, with instant gratification

http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg

http://bit.ly/1egr4mF

CCP Dolan
C C P
C C P Alliance
#6 - 2013-11-13 18:22:12 UTC
Heyo guys, I'm actually working on them as we speak. Unfortunately, right when the minutes started coming in from the CSM, we started having a few pressing matters in the community, the CSM, and the CPM. I am the lead on the CSM and the CPM and took a central role in the pressing matters to the community. Unfortunately, the time sensitive nature of all of these tasks meant that the minutes were pushed back.

Additionally, the minutes system is one of the oldest CSM systems, and just like I did with the stakeholder process and elections, it is next on my list of things to revamp. The minutes, as they have existed, are responsible for burning out more CSM's than any other activity, because they are a monotonous and lengthy task. I feel that we can try and find a way to preserve what I see as the key value of the minutes (letting the community see how they are being represented by the individual CSM's on various topics) without repeatedly forcing the CSM to create full transcripts of NDA'd meeting only for me to then edit down to fit the confines of what information we will release.

I think that in the past, people have viewed the minutes as some sort of delivery mechanism for hints about upcoming expansion/features. I pretty firmly disagree with that notion. The minutes are a system for review of the CSM, not preview of what CCP is doing.

CCP Dolan | Community Representative

Twitter: @CCPDolan

Gooby pls

CCP Dolan
C C P
C C P Alliance
#7 - 2013-11-13 18:23:25 UTC
Freelancer117 wrote:
How can CCP still approve these minutes when it has literally been MONTHS


I have video recordings of all of the sessions, and I have a pretty excellent memory.

CCP Dolan | Community Representative

Twitter: @CCPDolan

Gooby pls

Sarmatiko
#8 - 2013-11-13 18:26:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarmatiko
CCP Dolan wrote:
The minutes are a system for review of the CSM, not preview of what CCP is doing.

So basically "Nothing to see in those Minutes, citizen. Move along"? Bear
Good.
Rekkr Nordgard
Borderland Militia
Zero Hedge Union
#9 - 2013-11-13 18:31:11 UTC
CCP Dolan wrote:
Heyo guys, I'm actually working on them as we speak.


Good to hear. I know that you can't give us a firm date, but can you tell us what kind of timeframe do you foresee them being released? Are we talking days, weeks, months here?
CCP Dolan
C C P
C C P Alliance
#10 - 2013-11-13 18:38:39 UTC
Sarmatiko wrote:
CCP Dolan wrote:
The minutes are a system for review of the CSM, not preview of what CCP is doing.

So basically "Nothing to see in those Minutes, Citizen. Move along."? Bear
Good.


To be frank, the minutes are probably the worst way possible to do feature reivew/reveal to the community. The summit occurs when various ideas are in vastly different stages of development. The summit occurs, and ideas are exchanged, and then the minutes are released some time later when ideas may have been vastly revised or changed.The appropriate time for features to be reviewed/revealed is when the team actually posts them to features and ideas or in a dev blog.

The CSM serves as a wonderful place for developers to get feedback on ideas in their earliest stages, when ideas might be sub-optimal or get cut due to time for an expansion, and they can do this because the CSM are NDA'd. The summit minutes fundamentally circumvent that NDA, and reveal a lot about what is probably the most in-depth dev/CSM interaction we have on a regular basis. Trying to make sure that players can see how they are being represented and still allowing developers to effectively utilize the creative and CSM processes is a careful balancing act, and it's the main reason the the minutes are going to be the next thing I look at.

CCP Dolan | Community Representative

Twitter: @CCPDolan

Gooby pls

CCP Dolan
C C P
C C P Alliance
#11 - 2013-11-13 18:40:43 UTC
Rekkr Nordgard wrote:
CCP Dolan wrote:
Heyo guys, I'm actually working on them as we speak.


Good to hear. I know that you can't give us a firm date, but can you tell us what kind of timeframe do you foresee them being released? Are we talking days, weeks, months here?


I'm hoping to have them all out during next week. In the meantime, hopefully nothing catches fire and forces me to put on my fire fighter costume (which is quite fetching, I might add).

CCP Dolan | Community Representative

Twitter: @CCPDolan

Gooby pls

Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2013-11-13 18:50:01 UTC
Can you give an example about what people aren't allowed to talk about ?

It's seriously interesting how people can be under an NDA.
I never signed anything like that and i'm seriously wondering about it.


Cheers !
CCP Dolan
C C P
C C P Alliance
#13 - 2013-11-13 19:06:46 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Dolan
Solstice Project wrote:
Can you give an example about what people aren't allowed to talk about ?

It's seriously interesting how people can be under an NDA.
I never signed anything like that and i'm seriously wondering about it.


Cheers !


An excellent example would be something like crime watch. New Crime Watch took 2 expansion cycles to complete and was in the works for a long time. So let's say that I'm the game designer and in the very earliest stages I've laid out some basic goals for how I think new crime watch should work. Because crime watch is such an important core system and "old crime watch" is such a confused mess, it would be really great if I could run my ideas by some player experts to get a different perspective other than the 10 other people in the Game Design Department.

But Wait! I only have an early plan of how I want things to work, I don't even know if I can change crime watch yet, or how long it might take if I can. I also know that players are pretty unhappy with how "old crime watch" works. If I ask for feedback on a plan I have, and then can't actually do it, how will that go over with the community or effect feedback when I ask for it on different future projects?

This is the kind of situation where having an NDA'd group like the CSM is invaluable. They can provide feedback on potential projects A, B, C, D, and E in their earliest stages, and they are contractually obliged to keep those things a secret. This makes sure that when we decide we should do A, C, and E, that they are the best they could possibly be. And they get released without angering all the people who would have really loved for B and D and think that A is stupid.

CCP Dolan | Community Representative

Twitter: @CCPDolan

Gooby pls

Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2013-11-13 19:08:43 UTC
CCP Dolan wrote:
Solstice Project wrote:
Can you give an example about what people aren't allowed to talk about ?

It's seriously interesting how people can be under an NDA.
I never signed anything like that and i'm seriously wondering about it.


Cheers !


An excellent example would be something like crime watch. New Crime Watch took 2 expansion cycles to complete and was in the works for a long time. So let's say that I'm the game designer and in the very earliest stages I've laid out some basic goals for how I think new crime watch should work. Because crime watch is such an important core system and "old crime watch" is such a confused mess, it would be really great if I could run my ideas by some player experts to get a different perspective other than the 10 other people in the Game Design Department.

But Wait! I only have an early plan of how I want things to work, I don't even know if I can change crime watch yet, or how long it might take if I can. I also know that players are pretty unhappy with how "old crime watch" works. If I ask for feedback on a plan I have, and then can't actually do it, how will that go over with the community or effect feedback when I ask for it on different future projects?

This is the kind of situation where having an NDA'd group like the CSM is invaluable. They can provide feedback on potential projects A, B, C, D, and E in their earliest stages, and they are contractually obliged to keep those things a secret. This makes sure that when we decide we should do A, C, and E, that they are the best they could possibly be. And they get released without angering all the people who would have really loved for B and D and think that A is stupid.
Although you didn't fall for my (sadly really obvious) trap,
the response is seriously appreciated.


Thanks ! :)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#15 - 2013-11-13 19:10:44 UTC
Would pictures of you in your fireman outfit also come under the NDA?
CCP Dolan
C C P
C C P Alliance
#16 - 2013-11-13 19:12:07 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Would pictures of you in your fireman outfit also come under the NDA?


I suspect those are publicly available somewhere.

CCP Dolan | Community Representative

Twitter: @CCPDolan

Gooby pls

Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2013-11-13 19:14:15 UTC
CCP Dolan wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Would pictures of you in your fireman outfit also come under the NDA?


I suspect those are publicly available somewhere.
Are you literally one of the last people actually working at CCP ?

I pretty much only see you, Fuzzy, Rise ... sometimes Guard ... and of course Falcon and Eterne.
All the others probably are only alts of you few.

The latest devvideo had a girl in it.
I had no idea who that was.

I guess she's one of the "amateur models" you said you have at CCP ?
Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
#18 - 2013-11-13 19:24:20 UTC
CCP Dolan wrote:
Heyo guys, I'm actually working on them as we speak. Unfortunately, right when the minutes started coming in from the CSM, we started having a few pressing matters in the community, the CSM, and the CPM. I am the lead on the CSM and the CPM and took a central role in the pressing matters to the community. Unfortunately, the time sensitive nature of all of these tasks meant that the minutes were pushed back.

Additionally, the minutes system is one of the oldest CSM systems, and just like I did with the stakeholder process and elections, it is next on my list of things to revamp. The minutes, as they have existed, are responsible for burning out more CSM's than any other activity, because they are a monotonous and lengthy task. I feel that we can try and find a way to preserve what I see as the key value of the minutes (letting the community see how they are being represented by the individual CSM's on various topics) without repeatedly forcing the CSM to create full transcripts of NDA'd meeting only for me to then edit down to fit the confines of what information we will release.

I think that in the past, people have viewed the minutes as some sort of delivery mechanism for hints about upcoming expansion/features. I pretty firmly disagree with that notion. The minutes are a system for review of the CSM, not preview of what CCP is doing.


Let's discuss the last thing first;

I view the minutes of the CSM summits as an overall state of the company and the game, which I am also a stakeholder of.

With the cutting of the Quarterly Report and the extreme late arrival of the minutes, there are no "hints" for industrials or the meta gameplay, next to the features and ideas discussion or test server feedback and what is mentioned during fanfest/twitch.
To be blunt, the minutes as a source of future "hints" is literally outdated for a long time now.
Weird that you use that reason, since no one in this thread so far suggests or mentions the use of the minutes for personal gain.

About the CSM and burning out on minute writing, the current CSM 8 is the most overall active CSM I have seen since dec '08
(don't know about Progodlegend, but I hope all will go better soon)
Some reasons why people burn out is:
◦unclear job descriptions, undefined responsibilities, bad flow of information, lack of recognition at work and being underpaid – all these factors can strengthen tendencies towards burnout.

I fear putting a lot of time and effort in writing these minutes and then not seeing them released contributes to that burn out, maybe a streamlined process on CCP's side helps the un(der)paid CSM out more.
As a minute witter the process of getting them approved is worse then the actual grammar and spell checking.

So far I see 3 reason why the minutes are not out yet:
CCP, CCP, CCP

- How CCP views the motives behind the timely call for swift minutes by its readers, the sooner its released the fresher any perceived information the company thinks it's users might get. So a later release of the minutes is maybe better.
- How CCP is the obstacle of the release of the minutes, because of reviewing the minutes takes to much overall time, concerning NDA restrictions or even the wording of a text can maybe wrongly interpreted.
- How CCP is distracted by other pressing matters that keeps it off reviewing the minutes, where the source of the pressing matters is CCP it self;

•the Term of Service update in mid-September;
Statement from CPM0 - "State of affairs : Communication & Trust"
•the first SOMERblink issue regarding the iScorp giveaway in late September;
•the question about how much support community sites should get in general in early October;
•the second SOMERblink issue regarding ISK giveaways for GTC sales in late October; and,
•now the live event situation last week.

Eve online is :

A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online

D) CCP Games Pay to Win at skill leveling, with instant gratification

http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg

http://bit.ly/1egr4mF

Noriko Mai
#19 - 2013-11-13 19:24:55 UTC
Solstice Project wrote:
CCP Dolan wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Would pictures of you in your fireman outfit also come under the NDA?


I suspect those are publicly available somewhere.
Are you literally one of the last people actually working at CCP ?

I pretty much only see you, Fuzzy, Rise ... sometimes Guard ... and of course Falcon and Eterne.
All the others probably are only alts of you few.

The latest devvideo had a girl in it.
I had no idea who that was.

I guess she's one of the "amateur models" you said you have at CCP ?

Everytime they make a video in the office, they hire a lot of supporting actors to hide this fact. Big smileBig smile

"Meh.." - Albert Einstein

CCP Dolan
C C P
C C P Alliance
#20 - 2013-11-13 19:26:46 UTC
Solstice Project wrote:
I guess she's one of the "amateur models" you said you have at CCP ?


I'm pretty sure that I am the only "amateur model" at CCP, but that is just a hobby. You are talking about CCP Mimic, she is a member of the GM Team.

CCP Dolan | Community Representative

Twitter: @CCPDolan

Gooby pls

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