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[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

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Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#1121 - 2013-11-12 21:52:54 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
[quote=Zvaarian the Red][quote=Michael Harari]
2) Shouldn't a dual LSE Caracal be able to survive 40 seconds of AF fire?


I think you mean 90 seconds.
Viceorvirtue
The Hatchery
SL0W CHILDREN AT PLAY
#1122 - 2013-11-12 21:53:19 UTC
Yes a caracal can survive 40 seconds of af fine, but you seem to be looking at this in the vacuum of 1v1. Frigates and afs are popularly used as tackle by other ships. If you get scrammed by this tackle, 40 seconds is a very long time allowing every other ship on the field and from atleast 1 system away to be able to land and get secondary tackle. You tend to die when that happens.

As people have stated before this makes the weapon system non viable for engaging multiple ships in any situation where it wouldnt be overpowered against them. Such as killing 2-3 atrons. This would be far too powerful but the second it stops being powerful you have a significantly higher chance of getting killed because being tackled for 40 seconds in a ship built around being able to use mobility merely due to the fact that you ran out of ammo is terrible.

I can use an omen or thorax (which work just as well as the current caracal mind you), have the exact same effect of killing tackle and never run into such a limitation as the new rlm provide. This is going to negatively effect solo and small gang rlm usage for these reasons and I have no idea why you didn't take another course of action such as reducing light missile dmg or increasing rlm powergrid usage to prevent the ships using them from fitting things like the triple lse caracal and lse+xl asb cerb. This just seems to be the wrong way to nerf rlms because I don't see anyone wanting to use these if they have the option of using any other weapon system in the game.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1123 - 2013-11-12 21:56:33 UTC  |  Edited by: mynnna
Diamond Zerg wrote:
This is messed up. CCP Rise PLEASE consider the small gang/solo players!
If we don't have powerful RLMLs how are we going to effectively evade blobs with the new warp speed changes!?

If you are going to do this, please buff something else so we can deal with frigates effectively before we get hard tackled and blobbed.
Come on Kil2 don't let us down! You are an awesome guy and I have strong hope that you won't!


This is a parody post, right? What?

Viceorvirtue wrote:
This is going to negatively effect solo and small gang rlm usage for these reasons and I have no idea why you didn't take another course of action such as reducing light missile dmg or increasing rlm powergrid usage to prevent the ships using them from fitting things like the triple lse caracal and lse+xl asb cerb.


I guarantee you that if Rise had done this instead, we'd still have a sixty page thread full of people complaining.




Also reducing damage would negatively affect frigates that use light missiles. Just sayin'. Ugh

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#1124 - 2013-11-12 21:56:52 UTC
Taoist Dragon wrote:
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
X'ret wrote:
3min (BURST DAMAGE) quick check on Sisi, without comments:

RLML Cerberus

So with good skills it even fails to kill NPC BS, what to speak of properly fitted player cruiser Lol


You are whining that a cruiser fitted with ANTI-FRIG weapons has a hard time against a BS? Even if it is an NPC BS....really?! Shocked


Most of the other whiners here seem to be crying that their (possibly OP) anti-frig murderer is now actually gonna have to think about engaging that lone AF or 2-3 man frig gang.....Aw boo-******-hoo! a single cruiser should have to think about engaging those enemies. That is what balance is all about. A couple of caracals with the new RLML will still smash a moderately size frig gang easily. Sounds like a lot of you leet cruiser pvp'er need to actually learn how to fly. Twisted


I don't use RLMLs. I'm more upset about the RHML looking pretty much useless out of the gate for no apparent reason. That said RLMLs do look like they are going to become absurdly niche, leaving missile cruisers with two mainstream options that are widely considered sub-par for small gang/solo pvp.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#1125 - 2013-11-12 21:59:40 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Viceorvirtue wrote:
Can you imagine what would happen if a frigate landed as he was shooting that battleship. If he didn't have enough missiles remaining in his clip he would be unable to effectively do anything about the frigate for over 40 seconds. What if it's an enyo, ishkur, harpy or hawk? Then even with a mostly full clip he still has to swap out of kinetic to be able to break their tank. 40 seconds in a long time and this mechanic will get you killed often enough that there becomes no reason to use rlm at all when you can use something like a pulse omen or rail thorax and be able to, well, not actually die in a fire if a frigate suddenly appears at random.


Meanwhile pilots of non-tanky frigs will be raging about insta-dying versus these things. As others have said, these changes are going to **** off both sides of many fights.


A wise, if unpopular, man once said that the sign of a good compromise is that it leaves everybody a little angry.


A little angry? Most solo and small gang pvpers completely giving up the weapon due to complete inflexibility is a bit more than a little angry. For that matter so is the frig pilot who has one of these warp in and blow him up from 50km before he can even align. A little angry would be RLML cruiser pilots getting a 10% dps nerf or a 15-20 sec reload timer. A little angry would be a non-tanky frig pilot dying because he hung around too long against a bad match up when he should've run from the get go.

And really, there is no compromise going on here. Rise is telling us how it's going to be and ignoring our feedback. Perhaps you need to look up the word again.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1126 - 2013-11-12 22:00:12 UTC
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
X'ret wrote:
3min (BURST DAMAGE) quick check on Sisi, without comments:

RLML Cerberus

So with good skills it even fails to kill NPC BS, what to speak of properly fitted player cruiser Lol

/facepalm

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#1127 - 2013-11-12 22:03:20 UTC
mynnna wrote:




Also reducing damage would negatively affect frigates that use light missiles. Just sayin'. Ugh


LML frigates is something pretty much everyone actually agrees needs a nerf.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#1128 - 2013-11-12 22:06:56 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
mynnna wrote:




Also reducing damage would negatively affect frigates that use light missiles. Just sayin'. Ugh


LML frigates is something pretty much everyone actually agrees needs a nerf.


I wonder what happens when they nerf the DPS output of RMLs and then follow it up with a nerf to the LMs themselves.
Kaeda Maxwell
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#1129 - 2013-11-12 22:07:09 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Viceorvirtue wrote:
This is going to negatively effect solo and small gang rlm usage for these reasons and I have no idea why you didn't take another course of action such as reducing light missile dmg or increasing rlm powergrid usage to prevent the ships using them from fitting things like the triple lse caracal and lse+xl asb cerb.


I guarantee you that if Rise had done this instead, we'd still have a sixty page thread full of people complaining.


I would have supported a PGU increase (even quite a steep one putting near on par with fitting hams) without as much as a single post to the contrary, I suspect a fair number of the other vocal opponents in this thread would have too.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#1130 - 2013-11-12 22:07:34 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
mynnna wrote:




Also reducing damage would negatively affect frigates that use light missiles. Just sayin'. Ugh


LML frigates is something pretty much everyone actually agrees needs a nerf.


And if that happens after the nerf to RLMLs missile cruisers will get hit again and become truly useless. Maybe they should just nerf light missile damage 5-10% instead.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1131 - 2013-11-12 22:07:59 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
I just tested this on sisi.

You can kill 1 assault frigate IF

1) You have the right missile type loaded
2) The AF is not full tank
3) The AF is not linked
4) Against certain fits, like AAR vengeance if you dont heat, you dont kill it.

This was in a 3 BCU caracal with missile/RLM implants.

In most cases it takes about 15 rounds, but against some veng fits it took every single shot.

Thanks for confirming what I'm saying since page 20 : only the most resilient frigates in game might survive a full clip.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#1132 - 2013-11-12 22:09:17 UTC
Kaeda Maxwell wrote:
mynnna wrote:
Viceorvirtue wrote:
This is going to negatively effect solo and small gang rlm usage for these reasons and I have no idea why you didn't take another course of action such as reducing light missile dmg or increasing rlm powergrid usage to prevent the ships using them from fitting things like the triple lse caracal and lse+xl asb cerb.


I guarantee you that if Rise had done this instead, we'd still have a sixty page thread full of people complaining.


I would have supported a PGU increase (even quite a steep one putting near on par with fitting hams) without as much as a single post to the contrary, I suspect a fair number of the other vocal opponents in this thread would have too.


Pretty much. LML fitting buff should also be reverted.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1133 - 2013-11-12 22:09:39 UTC
Kaeda Maxwell wrote:


I would like to point out that you promised to post your defences and views right here where we could respond to them. I've mostly (an early on post in this thread excluded )seen you defend these changes anywhere but here (TMC and Failheap come to mind readily), so if my 'snippy' comment makes you double down on that promise that will actually be much appreciated.



That's fair comment. I honestly did think that I'd actually posted in the first few pages of this thread, but a quick skim through the first half dozen shows me that I must have mixed that up with the FHC thread. Apologies.

The tl;dr of my position on this change is that most fights don't occur between two stationary ships in an isolated constellation and who had no idea about what was going to happen. This change should and will reward smart tactics and piloting (to the extent that I'm trying to be discrete about my enthusiasm for the potential here in case Rise nerfs it back a bit), whilst penalising easy-mode frigate-murdering F1ing somewhat (and actually not even all that much)

The hyperbole of people like Chessur is not only impossible to take seriously, but actively confirms my faith in my support. One recalls similar comments - and threats - in the Titan and Supercarrier nerf threads.

On a tangential side note, one particular CSM member went to bat very hard indeed for the Cerb back when the HAC tiercide happened, and as a result it got a substantially better deal than it was going to. So the fact that the Cerb is so good - or OP, if you like - specifically with RLMLs is partly my doing in the first place.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#1134 - 2013-11-12 22:10:24 UTC
Kaeda Maxwell wrote:
mynnna wrote:
Viceorvirtue wrote:
This is going to negatively effect solo and small gang rlm usage for these reasons and I have no idea why you didn't take another course of action such as reducing light missile dmg or increasing rlm powergrid usage to prevent the ships using them from fitting things like the triple lse caracal and lse+xl asb cerb.


I guarantee you that if Rise had done this instead, we'd still have a sixty page thread full of people complaining.


I would have supported a PGU increase (even quite a steep one putting near on par with fitting hams) without as much as a single post to the contrary, I suspect a fair number of the other vocal opponents in this thread would have too.


Sounds like a very reasonable change to me as well. RLMLs do have ridiculously low fitting requirements after all.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#1135 - 2013-11-12 22:11:09 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
I just tested this on sisi.

You can kill 1 assault frigate IF

1) You have the right missile type loaded
2) The AF is not full tank
3) The AF is not linked
4) Against certain fits, like AAR vengeance if you dont heat, you dont kill it.

This was in a 3 BCU caracal with missile/RLM implants.

In most cases it takes about 15 rounds, but against some veng fits it took every single shot.

Thanks for confirming what I'm saying since page 20 : only the most resilient frigates in game might survive a full clip.


Interceptors survive a whole clip, and thats without getting into high tank fits.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#1136 - 2013-11-12 22:12:09 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Kaeda Maxwell wrote:


I would like to point out that you promised to post your defences and views right here where we could respond to them. I've mostly (an early on post in this thread excluded )seen you defend these changes anywhere but here (TMC and Failheap come to mind readily), so if my 'snippy' comment makes you double down on that promise that will actually be much appreciated.



That's fair comment. I honestly did think that I'd actually posted in the first few pages of this thread, but a quick skim through the first half dozen shows me that I must have mixed that up with the FHC thread. Apologies.

The tl;dr of my position on this change is that most fights don't occur between two stationary ships in an isolated constellation and who had no idea about what was going to happen. This change should and will reward smart tactics and piloting (to the extent that I'm trying to be discrete about my enthusiasm for the potential here in case Rise nerfs it back a bit), whilst penalising easy-mode frigate-murdering F1ing somewhat (and actually not even all that much)

The hyperbole of people like Chessur is not only impossible to take seriously, but actively confirms my faith in my support. One recalls similar comments - and threats - in the Titan and Supercarrier nerf threads.

On a tangential side note, one particular CSM member went to bat very hard indeed for the Cerb back when the HAC tiercide happened, and as a result it got a substantially better deal than it was going to. So the fact that the Cerb is so good - or OP, if you like - specifically with RLMLs is partly my doing in the first place.



And what of the complete inflexibility of RLMLs in terms of damage type?
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#1137 - 2013-11-12 22:13:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
Malcanis wrote:
Kaeda Maxwell wrote:


I would like to point out that you promised to post your defences and views right here where we could respond to them. I've mostly (an early on post in this thread excluded )seen you defend these changes anywhere but here (TMC and Failheap come to mind readily), so if my 'snippy' comment makes you double down on that promise that will actually be much appreciated.



That's fair comment. I honestly did think that I'd actually posted in the first few pages of this thread, but a quick skim through the first half dozen shows me that I must have mixed that up with the FHC thread. Apologies.

The tl;dr of my position on this change is that most fights don't occur between two stationary ships in an isolated constellation and who had no idea about what was going to happen. This change should and will reward smart tactics and piloting (to the extent that I'm trying to be discrete about my enthusiasm for the potential here in case Rise nerfs it back a bit), whilst penalising easy-mode frigate-murdering F1ing somewhat (and actually not even all that much)

The hyperbole of people like Chessur is not only impossible to take seriously, but actively confirms my faith in my support. One recalls similar comments - and threats - in the Titan and Supercarrier nerf threads.

On a tangential side note, one particular CSM member went to bat very hard indeed for the Cerb back when the HAC tiercide happened, and as a result it got a substantially better deal than it was going to. So the fact that the Cerb is so good - or OP, if you like - specifically with RLMLs is partly my doing in the first place.




Honestly, this is pretty much only a buff for the 1v1 in isolation, and a nerf to any fleet work using the ship. The smart tactics you are talking about is just heating down your single tackler, and then warping out, leaving the rest of your gang to pvp without you for 40s. Sure, that one tackler will die a little sooner than he would have otherwise. But tacklers 2,3,4 and beyond now take ages longer to kill.


You cant even do things like shoot at drones, or put a volley or two into the primary, because you will just run out of shots with your corpmates vagabond or whatever being tackled while you reload, followed by heavy tackle getting on him. Or, you can just fly another ship.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1138 - 2013-11-12 22:13:50 UTC
Whatever happened to the scripted missile 'tracking computer' or 'ballistic enhancer'?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Viceorvirtue
The Hatchery
SL0W CHILDREN AT PLAY
#1139 - 2013-11-12 22:14:13 UTC
Sure a pg increase on rlms wouldnt be widely accepted by everyone but they would atleast still continue to use rlms. Omen, thorax, and 'new rlm' caracal all can kill frigates for about 50 seconds. At the end of that time the caracal stops shooting.....giving up any field control it had allowing newly warped in tackle to come and end it. Meanwhile the omen and thorax are still killing tackle, no matter when it lands on field during the fight the other ships can deal with it. The new caracal won't be able to. It becomes a one trick pony and you still haven't given me any amazing reason why anyone should fly new rlms over pulse lasers or rails if they have a choice.

New rlms can not adapt to any changing situation without a 40 second downtime which is more than enough time for tackle to come in and either make the caracal leave or hold it long enough for things to just kill it. Every other system has atleast some presence against tackle.

Please give me a convincing argument why I should use new rlms when they do the same as pulse lasers and rails only with 40 seconds of downtime and complete inability to switch ammo depending on a changing situation without said 40 second downtime.
Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
#1140 - 2013-11-12 22:14:38 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Diamond Zerg wrote:
This is messed up. CCP Rise PLEASE consider the small gang/solo players!
If we don't have powerful RLMLs how are we going to effectively evade blobs with the new warp speed changes!?

If you are going to do this, please buff something else so we can deal with frigates effectively before we get hard tackled and blobbed.
Come on Kil2 don't let us down! You are an awesome guy and I have strong hope that you won't!


This is a parody post, right? What?

Viceorvirtue wrote:
This is going to negatively effect solo and small gang rlm usage for these reasons and I have no idea why you didn't take another course of action such as reducing light missile dmg or increasing rlm powergrid usage to prevent the ships using them from fitting things like the triple lse caracal and lse+xl asb cerb.


I guarantee you that if Rise had done this instead, we'd still have a sixty page thread full of people complaining.




Also reducing damage would negatively affect frigates that use light missiles. Just sayin'. Ugh


Actually, LML frigs do need a bit of a nerf, and for pve purposes this weapon is sort of usable but greatly extends the time required to clear a site or finish a mission. When you're not sitting behind a bubblecamp wall with only allies able to access the area you're in that time is critical.

And before you say "use other weapons" the other missile choices that will fit on a cruiser are worse by much further degrees. Calculate damage application on HAM's and without a double web they can't keep up with lights. Run the same calculation on heavies and they have no chance to compete without at least a 3x paint scenario, and who can afford 3 option mids and still fit a decent shield tank?