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[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

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#921 - 2013-11-12 06:20:12 UTC
Ion Blacknight wrote:
We deserve a clear explanation.

Lol
Oh wait, were you serious?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

#922 - 2013-11-12 06:23:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Angelus Ryan
Cardano Firesnake wrote:
it would be great like that:

Reload time for both groups set to 35 seconds.

T2 Rapid Light Launchers can carry roughly 20 charges
T2 Rapid Heavy Launchers can carry roughly 25 charges

I think it is not a so bad idea even if it changes our game play, even if it will be impossible to change ammo type during the fight. This changes will give a true identity to the Rapid launchers: Huge dps for a very short ime.


5s less don't make it any less crap. It is still horrible for all the reasons listed in the thread.
#923 - 2013-11-12 06:23:40 UTC
Ion Blacknight wrote:
The RLM Caracal is one of the most fun ships to fly in Eve. Why on earth would you want to remove it? I say remove it because what you are proposing to replace it with is a non-starter that will not see a fraction of the use the present RLM Caracal does.

So I repeat : one of the most liked and successful doctrines in Eve and you want to remove it from the game.

Why?

We deserve a clear explanation.


Rise doesn't like you, that's why. Blink
#924 - 2013-11-12 06:58:29 UTC
Angelus Ryan wrote:
5s less don't make it any less crap. It is still horrible for all the reasons listed in the thread.

Regardless, these are probably set in stone.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

WE FORM V0LTA
#925 - 2013-11-12 07:20:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Cardano Firesnake
Angelus Ryan wrote:
5s less don't make it any less crap. It is still horrible for all the reasons listed in the thread.


5s to reload hybrid instead of 10s change lot of things.

Perharps 30s af reloading time instead 40s would be good.

I would like to try to see...

I would probably kill more fregates and destroyers with this version than with the old version. So it is exactly what I want to engage with my RLML Caracal. Of course it is clear that in solo fight I will not be able to kill a cruiser or a BC before being out of ammo.
But with a little help of my friends I will just **** them so quickly...

If I want to engage Cruisers or BC, I will put HM or HAM on my caracal.

It will be matter of choice.

30s of reloading time and 2 to 5 ammo in the magagazine should be enough to make it great.

Posted - 2010.07.01 11:24:00 - [4] Erase learning skills, remap all SP. That's all.

Shadow Cartel
#926 - 2013-11-12 08:16:13 UTC
While i'm not sure i like this change (wouldn't mind rlml's being removed tbh) it seems that most of the people objecting to this are people who seem to think RLML's should be the go to weapons system for virtually anything.

Like this a RLML Caracal will be better than ever at warping in on a frig gang and killing a few before they warp off or he does.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Minmatar Republic
#927 - 2013-11-12 09:10:00 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Cardano Firesnake wrote:
it would be great like that:

Reload time for both groups set to 35 seconds.

T2 Rapid Light Launchers can carry roughly 20 charges
T2 Rapid Heavy Launchers can carry roughly 25 charges



35 seconds is still garbage.



If the charges are increased, the effect on the time is largely diminished, because you had enough damage to "Do something" before going inactive.

The exact numbers are hard to calculate and must be a combination of objective and subjective values.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Minmatar Republic
#928 - 2013-11-12 09:13:17 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
While i'm not sure i like this change (wouldn't mind rlml's being removed tbh) it seems that most of the people objecting to this are people who seem to think RLML's should be the go to weapons system for virtually anything.

Like this a RLML Caracal will be better than ever at warping in on a frig gang and killing a few before they warp off or he does.



No, we are advocating that exactly this perception of yours is wrong. As we pointed a caracal will not be good at warping in and killing a few frigates. Because its ammo barely allows it to kill 1 frigate (and none if its t2). THerefore it will be LESS effective at warping in a frig gang and killing a few before being defeated or warping off.


DPS harndly ever is the main factor when you want to bring down a frigate alone, a caracal sould defeat her anyway in the old system. THat means no gain on that scenario. But if you warp into a group of 4 frigates, with the new system you will be in worse conditions.


"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Minmatar Republic
#929 - 2013-11-12 09:15:33 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Chessur wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Chessur wrote:


Pretty much this:

Destroyers are slower than T1 cruisers
Destroyers have less projection than T1 cruisers
Destroyers do less DPS than T1 cruisers
Destroyers have less EHP / tank than T1 cruisers

Why would you ever fly them? Their speed to sig ratio is just so bad- they get blapped by pretty much everything.



Just fit them correclty.....


check this video for example.. after 1:35 Notice that we had 1 stilleto 1 maulus and rest only destroyers.. against cruisers BC and frigates.


I don't see your video link :( As a crazy guss- are you using 10MN AB Destroyers, with links / snakes? Then they can actually sig tank something.


Sorry:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4VSukE8lZs

Yup that is basically what we do. Just poiting that some ships can be effective even when peopel do not beleive in them.

But these new rapid laucnhers are so bad that not even us beleive we can do anythign with them

You could, your video would just be 100~120 seconds long.


Run your numbers. If each of those algoses were a caracal with tne new rapid launchers we would have needed how many reloads of our ammo to kill those targets? Hint... would result in a far far longer fight. And less fun.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

The Initiative.
#930 - 2013-11-12 09:27:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenrailae
P sure if we remove Kagura's posts from this thread, it'd easily clear back into mid 20's for page number lol




The caracal warping into a frig gang with this weapons system would be warping into the exact situation a forward DPS loaded weapons system with long reload should avoid. But if it were to warp into a a cruiser or even some BC's, the huge burst damage should do very well, where standard HML's against a cruiser or BC are kinda underwhelming.


Still very much in the camp that these changes should go along the lines of either:


Stripping face from bones DPS for a short span followed by a longer reload

Something like(Don't throw maths at me I haven't run them, just discussing) 12 shot magazine expended over 18 seconds, followed by a 30 ish second reload(tinker for balance and scaling, being theoretical)

EDIT:

Yes, I am aware of the applications this could have when translated to the ganking world

or

Slightly more sustained DPS over a mid range reload

Something like an 18 shot magazine expended over a 30 seconds followed by a 18 second reload(again, Tinker for balance and scaling.)


40 seconds is just toooooooo long though, for only

Quote:
This translates to a Raven with 3x BCU, T2 Rapid Heavy Launchers and Scourge Fury missiles doing 926 dps
This translates to a Caracal with 3x BCU, T2 Rapid Light Launchers and Scourge Fury missiles doing 409 dps

Both ships would have around 50 seconds of up time followed by 40 seconds of reload meaning that over extended engagements their true dps would be a bit more than half of the dps number above.




Both of which coming out to roughly the same as standard HML's or HAM's would do over the same amount of cycle+Reload time.


Would add alot of flavor, IMO. Again, haven't tinkered numbers so adjustment would be necessary, only speaking ideas.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal

HYDRA RELOADED
#931 - 2013-11-12 09:32:09 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
While i'm not sure i like this change (wouldn't mind rlml's being removed tbh) it seems that most of the people objecting to this are people who seem to think RLML's should be the go to weapons system for virtually anything.

Like this a RLML Caracal will be better than ever at warping in on a frig gang and killing a few before they warp off or he does.


Noone thinks RLMLs should be the go-to weapon system for everything at all. People are trying to prevent the last useful medium missile system from being nerfed into oblivion. It is heavy missiles that have been nerfed way too severely and are in sore need of a buff to become useful again.
Also, 18 charges are hardly enough to kill more than maybe one competent frigate before you have to warp off (and then get tackled by an inty that undocked next door while you're still reloading).

The main problem with this change is actually that it has been announced way too shortly before the patch and is unlikely to even hit singularity in time for proper testing. This, in combination with CCP Rise being ignorant and regarding any kind of feedback as confirming him means that this will probably get pushed through to Tranquility despite the 47 pages of overwhelmingly negative feedback in this thread.

If anything, light missiles could use a very slight nerf, but they really only seem overpowered because heavy missiles are so incredibly useless.
Minmatar Republic
#932 - 2013-11-12 09:43:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Kenrailae wrote:
P sure if we remove Kagura's posts from this thread, it'd easily clear back into mid 20's for page number lol




The caracal warping into a frig gang with this weapons system would be warping into the exact situation a forward DPS loaded weapons system with long reload should avoid. But if it were to warp into a a cruiser or even some BC's, the huge burst damage should do very well, where standard HML's against a cruiser or BC are kinda underwhelming.


Still very much in the camp that these changes should go along the lines of either:


Stripping face from bones DPS for a short span followed by a longer reload

or

Slightly more sustained DPS over a mid range reload



Both of which coming out to roughly the same as standard HML's or HAM's would do over the same amount of cycle+Reload time.


Would add alot of flavor, IMO.


I would post less if people would not keep posting again and again the same things that go exactly against what the math tell would happen. Your post for example, unless you are speaking of a gang of several of such caracals, it makes no sense. If you are solo your burst damage is irrelevant because the total damage cannot kill the cruiser of your example. Take a hypothetical cerberus with new Rapids vs a cerberus with old rapids.... the result goes against your statement.


Yourself have pointed you have not run the math. Well we have, and it points that it will NOT work as you think. The discussion passed already the level of "feeling"we are discussing upon math and statements should be made with that math in mind. No matter how much you may like or not, the math is a representation of the truth that would happen.

These new module is good if you are bringing a caracal/cerberus in larger number than enemy ships, so you can dish a lot of damage and warp out , possibly before loosing many or any ships. But on the scenarios where you are outnumbered this weapon system mathematically (its not subjective) is inferior, since your gang would need to concede the field.


I am not against the concept of front loading damage, but this works very differently than Arties (that are instantaneous, giving a much larger bennefit than this change) and have a far smaller "inactive cycle". The number could be tweaked until we have something usable, but as long as a rapid caracal is a bad ship to warp against a few (like 3) frigates we are no where near a balanced weapon system.

If this change had been proiposed 1 month ago, we would have had time to balance those numbers.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Snuffed Out
#933 - 2013-11-12 10:15:10 UTC
Caracal blobs anyone???
Because thats whats gonna happen....
50 Caracals at 80k range that do over 400 dps.....
and who cares about reload time if you have a blob?

Caracal blobs were already OP, now with this change Caracals will bloth out the sun.

So NO, dont change dps and or reload times, its a bad idea....

The Initiative.
#934 - 2013-11-12 10:15:54 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
P sure if we remove Kagura's posts from this thread, it'd easily clear back into mid 20's for page number lol




The caracal warping into a frig gang with this weapons system would be warping into the exact situation a forward DPS loaded weapons system with long reload should avoid. But if it were to warp into a a cruiser or even some BC's, the huge burst damage should do very well, where standard HML's against a cruiser or BC are kinda underwhelming.


Still very much in the camp that these changes should go along the lines of either:


Stripping face from bones DPS for a short span followed by a longer reload

or

Slightly more sustained DPS over a mid range reload



Both of which coming out to roughly the same as standard HML's or HAM's would do over the same amount of cycle+Reload time.


Would add alot of flavor, IMO.


I would post less if people would not keep posting again and again the same things that go exactly against what the math tell would happen. Your post for example, unless you are speaking of a gang of several of such caracals, it makes no sense. If you are solo your burst damage is irrelevant because the total damage cannot kill the cruiser of your example. Take a hypothetical cerberus with new Rapids vs a cerberus with old rapids.... the result goes against your statement.


Yourself have pointed you have not run the math. Well we have, and it points that it will NOT work as you think. The discussion passed already the level of "feeling"we are discussing upon math and statements should be made with that math in mind. No matter how much you may like or not, the math is a representation of the truth that would happen.

These new module is good if you are bringing a caracal/cerberus in larger number than enemy ships, so you can dish a lot of damage and warp out , possibly before loosing many or any ships. But on the scenarios where you are outnumbered this weapon system mathematically (its not subjective) is inferior, since your gang would need to concede the field.


I am not against the concept of front loading damage, but this works very differently than Arties (that are instantaneous, giving a much larger bennefit than this change) and have a far smaller "inactive cycle". The number could be tweaked until we have something usable, but as long as a rapid caracal is a bad ship to warp against a few (like 3) frigates we are no where near a balanced weapon system.

If this change had been proiposed 1 month ago, we would have had time to balance those numbers.



I think you're just not reading, tbh. Or reading what you want to hear and presuming you have all the answers.

I said the caracal would be in deep trouble if it warped into a group of frigates. Exactly what it wanted to avoid.

A Caracal shouldn't try to fight a Cerb. That's about all there is to that. A cerb will beat a caracal 100% of the time, presuming the cerb pilot is not a complete failscade.

A caracal warping in on a vexor, or rupture.... It's burst may be able to kill it. Maybe not. The way I usually fit mine, no, it wouldn't, as I go p much all tank and go for outlasting my target. A vexor with 2 damage mods and an active tank? Those don't have that much EHP, and they cycle time on a rep isn't fast enough to keep up with that damage.

A shield Rupture? Maybe.


I s'pose I should clarify that I did not mean a group of BC's, rather some BC classes. Some of them are super tanky, some of them are kinda flimsy. Specially when you allow people to fit them.


Nah, this system shouldn't be able to just warp in and volley/ solo anything it's class or smaller 100% of the time.

But it should be able to do it relatively often on less tanky opponent, but not as much on more tanky enemies. That way you have to actually count piloting skill in, and the constant choice and consequence of that choice that is Eve.

You don't go hunting battleships with a Sniper tornado. If you really wanna use a sniper tornado.... you look for things you can volley.

You also don't go hunting frigates in a dreadnaught.

Right tool for the job. Choosing to try to burst through a Cruiser or BC would be a risk. With appropriate 'reward.' Trying to burst a gang of 4 algos's... well a choice again.... with appropriate reward via the pod express.

This system would be similar. It would have it's ups and downs, be strong against what it was designed against: Countering the class below what it's fit on(RLML's good against friggies and dessies, RHML's against Cruisers and some BC's).

I also edited the the post a moment after posting it, cause I noobed and forgot a piece.



I agree, this idea shouldn't be in Rubicon. Too much balancing.


Personally, I suggest you put the keyboard down. You're really not doing yourself any favors, acting like King pin of the thread. So chill dude. Relax.

There is still plenty of time to discuss concepts, since it's not going to be right the first time anyway. Might as well have a good old talk about it, not 47 pages of one person trying to boss everyone else into agreeing with him.


The other piece you should consider is this: Not everyone posting in this thread camps high sec stations all day. Some of us are willing to get in a good fight, and lose a ship if necessary for the sake of the pew, not just no risk PVP man....


So calm down a bit. We all know this idea isn't ready for TQ. And it will probably be introduced not ready. There is more to Eve than high sec, and we want it to work for all of it, not just for 100% risk free PVP.

Let peeps talk. Stop trying to force everyone to see things your way.


The math should NEVER state 100% Effectiveness. That is bad. It should suggest acceptable chance of success.





The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal

#935 - 2013-11-12 11:04:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Moonaura
Another thing I'd like to add is, where on the forum is there pages of screaming from people talking about RLML being overpowered and deadly? I don't see it. They are entirely situational, and a cruiser fitted this way is completely vulnerable to e-war, gangs, decent tanked frigates, and best of all - any other freaking cruiser basically.

When you take out a Caracal with RLML solo, frankly, you don't expect to bring it home and equally, the amount of ships they can actually kill is entirely dependent on fittings and circumstance.

If you fit a buffer tank to survive a small gang of frigates (About 2-4 typically, past that you're in trouble) then you have to typically fit at least one if not two shield extenders, improve the resistance holes. So that is 2 - 3 slots given up.

Then you add in disruptor, which gives you the range, but means ships can burn away - or a scram and hope you get them close

One slot left. Well, if you want to catch frigates in say, faction warfare entrances - you're going to need a sensor booster and some luck, that they don't activate the gate immediately. You will catch destroyers. But without a MWD, they will be able to burn away before you can kill them, unless you use a scram.

As its a cruiser it can't even get inside the small complex's, so that protects most frigates off the bat.

If you give up some tank for a MWD, then you have speed but no where near as fast as a frigate with a MWD and now its buffer is dramatically reduced, limiting its ability to fight more than two targets typically.

If you want a web etc or target painter, you're going to have to compromise on tank, speed or targeting. It is always going to be a choice and sometimes that works sometimes it doesn't.

Regardless, the ship is vulnerable to engaged combat as its tank diminishes, and it doesn't have the DPS to kill a well tanked frigate in time.

It is entirely vulnerable to many frigates:

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=16313944

And equally entirely vulnerable to a cruiser fit with medium weapons and is large enough to be caught easily while travelling gate to gate:

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15942107

And against to many frigates, it will always go down, often without any kill in return.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15865874

Now there are occasions when it can go well:

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=15939832

This fight also involved a pair of RLML Caracals, landing outside a Faction Warfare plex. We landed on the Harpy and managed to overload his solid tank. There are also two other enemy Talwars sitting at range, not seen here, because they didn't die. I was fitted with a double shield extender, and the fight was a race against time before it ran out. We were taking down the Wolf when in landed the logistics frigate in support, and repped it back up, so we had to switch targets and pummel that instead. All this time, my tank is going down. In the end, the Wolf almost got away - our last volley killed it, and in return I would have died to the next missile volley from the last on-field Talwar. I warped off in 2% structure. That was a fun fight. But it was entirely dependent on them engaging us, they all could have warped off.

That fight that would be impossible with the new RLML mechanics you are proposing, because for 60% of it, we wouldn't even be shooting. We'd just have killed the first ship we landed on, and had no chance against the others, not with their logistics ship on the field.

In short, RLML and the Caracal are fine. They are entirely vulnerable and come with their own set of risk / rewards.

In all honesty, the Talwar is typically more fun and effective than the RLML Caracal. It is faster, can enter small complex's, can catch frigates easier, and achieves solid DPS with its missiles, while having the ability to kite and disengage if need be, something the Caracal cannot.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=16317519

If you introduce these changes, the RLML Caracal is dead and basically, confined to one vs one frigate action. In other words, utterly useless and not worth spending the ISK on.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 

C C P Alliance
#936 - 2013-11-12 11:24:26 UTC
This is definitely the most difficult thread to try and interact with that I've made so far, so please excuse the delay between post if you can find it in your hearts to do so.

I've been discussing the response to this change almost constantly since the thread was posted, both with the CSM and with my fellow designers. I'll cut to the chase and say that the conclusion is to go ahead with the change, with the understanding that it needs to be carefully looked at following release.

It really seems there's two different discussions taking place. One is simply whether or not rapid light missiles deserve a nerf of any kind, and the other is whether or not the proposed mechanic will be fun/powerful.

I understand that the current RLML missiles are very strong and you guys like them and that many people would be very unhappy for them to get a significant change regardless of the method we chose. We definitely feel they need a change though. It's a weapon system designed to be best in a particular kind of situation rather than being the best choice for most situations and so one way or another it was going to get tweaked. However, if this change means the system isn't powerful in the situations it's meant for (dunking smaller ships), it will get adjusted until it is. The second part of this topic is whether or not the other medium weapon systems are actually viable. The way players are behaving says they are, but following this release I'd like to have a conversation internally about missiles as a whole and figure out where we stand. Maybe there is some more changes needed and I'd like to look into that.

As far as the long reload mechanic, the feedback is mixed in this thread and mostly positive elsewhere (CSM, internal development, external forums) from what I can tell. Again, I will say that the concerns about ammo swapping are completely valid and I've talked to my team and we can hopefully address that sometime after Rubicon. Part of the reason I lean towards putting this change in is the common sentiment in most balance threads that homogenization is a big fear among our players. I think favoring new types of interactions rather than adjusting numbers slightly within the same mechanic makes the game more interesting, and everything I've heard from the community points that direction as well (except sometimes when doing something new means changing something old). On top of this, there's no arguing that front-loading damage is powerful. As others have said, artillery is a good example of that. Whether or not it's powerful enough to compensate for the sustained dps nerf is just something we will find out once people get it in their hands.

I think we will come out of this with a very fun pair of weapon systems. If we don't, it will get changed.

PS - saying I don't play the game or use Caracals is completely ridiculous, I think you guys can find more reasonable lines of attack.

@ccp_rise

#937 - 2013-11-12 11:35:40 UTC
is it just me, or am I seeing a never ending balance cycle taking place...

Teiricide the ships and balance them out... then balance modules then turn around and have to rebalance the ships because of changes in modules then have to turn around and rebalance modules........ rinse and repeat.....

why not just look at the entire missile combat as a whole and start there... balance modules and ships that use that weapon system as primary....

just stop with all these changes to missile combat and start from the beginning again...

determine the base line... what you ,.. the game designers want... and do it...

I think the players for the most part would rather wait a few more months and have a fully useful system instead of this mish mash we got now....
#938 - 2013-11-12 11:37:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Moonaura
CCP Rise, thanks for the update. I think it's wrong. It forces RLML into a very specific use with massive penalties. Next time, please, more notice and discussion. You have 6 months in-between expansions, yet this change only was announced 10 days before release. That isn't long enough for anyone to try it on Sisi etc.

And yes, people are scared of change. I will try it, but I don't think 40 second reload is going to be pretty. Not pretty at all. We will all hold you to your promise to change it back if it sucks.

PS. Remind not to vote for any of these CSM candidates again. They appear utterly useless.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 

Caldari State
#939 - 2013-11-12 11:42:51 UTC  |  Edited by: ludizao
CCP Rise wrote:

PS - saying I don't play the game or use Caracals is completely ridiculous, I think you guys can find more reasonable lines of attack.

Sure we can, you're encouraging blob warfare and discouraging solo and tiny gangs.

! B R I N G I N G - S O L O - B A C K !
Caldari State
#940 - 2013-11-12 11:48:22 UTC
Madbuster73 wrote:
Caracal blobs anyone???
Because thats whats gonna happen....
50 Caracals at 80k range that do over 400 dps.....
and who cares about reload time if you have a blob?

Caracal blobs were already OP, now with this change Caracals will bloth out the sun.

So NO, dont change dps and or reload times, its a bad idea....



Yeah, thats exactly what is going to happen. Can't wait !
Now do the same with Cerbs...
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