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A question to Erotica 1, James 315 and co: do you even l̶i̶f̶t̶ PvP?

Author
Eduard Khil XD
Doomheim
#1 - 2013-11-11 04:45:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Eduard Khil XD
Hi. I'd like to start this post by saying I'm a big fan of James 315's writing, the work he does, and the concepts he presents.
I don't know much about Erotica or if he writes well, so I'll reserve my judgement about him.

However, I have a question for Erotica, James 315 and hisec scammers/gankers in general:

Do you often PvP where there is a risk of you losing? And if not, can what you do really be called PvP if there is only one side to the engagement?

Allow me to elaborate. Two fleets meet in a situation where they can engage freely.
Battle commences, FCs make their plays, skill, strategy and other factors decide the winner— the fight is wrapped up.
Every time you engage, you're putting your own assets and time on the line, as are your opponents.
Who the enemy are is totally transparent. Finding their staging system is usually no problem—you can often attack said group at your leisure, or even follow them around if you hold a grudge.

Now enter the world of hisec ganking and scamming. There is no way to hold a grudge or retaliate against an alt that does not undock in ships that are significantly valuable, and the way most scammers behave, no way to scam them back.

Now, before you call me a supporter of risk free PvE or hisec, I'm not.
In fact, EVE might be a better game if they just removed hisec altogether v0v.
Risk free PvE income that can be used in PvP is imbalanced.

You'd probobly agree that when players do these kind of activities there is minimal risk of loss to them. There's no point in attacking their gank catalyst, and no way to find out their main.

Why should CCP work to preserve this kind of playstyle?
If you are not in a conflict where your enemy can retaliate, why do you find it fun?
Should you be allowed to perform any activity in EVE without repercussions/consequences?
Why should you be allowed to use any method for scamming if you are completely detached from your PvP main?
Lady Areola Fappington
#2 - 2013-11-11 04:53:37 UTC
I like explosions, and I'm playing an economic game with my victims. Sure, buy that replacement retty here, instead of wasting time flying to a hub. It's only a 25% markup, no biggy.

The follow-on to your question is, why shouldn't I blow them up, if I can? I'm playing a PVP game, with others who have agreed to PVP. Not my fault they chose to fly a ship that can't respond to my actions.

If we must, think back to the days of high piracy. Pirates and privateers didn't attack military ships. They went after lightly armed traders for the precise reason we do....they can't fight back.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide

Erotica 1
Krypteia Operations
#3 - 2013-11-11 04:54:46 UTC
I will respond and edit this better for you later. Right now I am doing a press conference, which is also posted to the general discussion crowd in another thread.

See Bio for isk doubling rules. If you didn't read bio, chances are you funded those who did.

Eduard Khil XD
Doomheim
#4 - 2013-11-11 04:55:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Eduard Khil XD
I'm listening to the press conference ^^
That depends on your definition of PvP, Varius Xeral.

For example, if you begin a chess match with the same number of pieces and beat a good player, does that not show you are better at chess than if your opponent had a handicap?
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#5 - 2013-11-11 04:58:32 UTC
The more chance your enemy has of winning the worse you are at pvp.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal

La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2013-11-11 06:04:20 UTC
Eduard Khil XD wrote:
I'm listening to the press conference ^^
That depends on your definition of PvP, Varius Xeral.

For example, if you begin a chess match with the same number of pieces and beat a good player, does that not show you are better at chess than if your opponent had a handicap?


~Space E-Bushido~

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133

Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#7 - 2013-11-11 06:17:59 UTC
Show us on the wallet doll where Erotica1 touched you....

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?

Ryhss
#8 - 2013-11-11 06:22:37 UTC
No, this new order does not pvp. They are spineless cowards picking on defenseless ships(drones don't count)

I just turned into an egg, did I level up? I spent an hour trying to salvage a wreck, when in local a guy said "Stop it, this is my Tempest, I was AFK"

ElQuirko
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2013-11-11 06:27:49 UTC
Ryhss wrote:
No, this new order does not pvp. They are spineless cowards picking on defenseless ships(drones don't count)

The poor defenceless carriers, drone BSs, ishtars, gilas, vexors, arbitrators, ishkurs, tristans and more! Won't somebody please think of the carriers, drone BSs, ishtars, gilas, vexors, arbitrators, ishkurs, tristans and more?!

Dodixie > Hek

Ryhss
#10 - 2013-11-11 06:34:21 UTC
ElQuirko wrote:
Ryhss wrote:
No, this new order does not pvp. They are spineless cowards picking on defenseless ships(drones don't count)

The poor defenceless carriers, drone BSs, ishtars, gilas, vexors, arbitrators, ishkurs, tristans and more! Won't somebody please think of the carriers, drone BSs, ishtars, gilas, vexors, arbitrators, ishkurs, tristans and more?!

I've never seen them kill any of those. Targets are usually Retrievers, Hulks, Orcas, and Badgers.(you do realise my new order hatred is pure roleplay, right?)

I just turned into an egg, did I level up? I spent an hour trying to salvage a wreck, when in local a guy said "Stop it, this is my Tempest, I was AFK"

Snagletooth Johnson
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2013-11-11 06:34:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Snagletooth Johnson
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
I like explosions, and I'm playing an economic game with my victims. Sure, buy that replacement retty here, instead of wasting time flying to a hub. It's only a 25% markup, no biggy.

The follow-on to your question is, why shouldn't I blow them up, if I can? I'm playing a PVP game, with others who have agreed to PVP. Not my fault they chose to fly a ship that can't respond to my actions.

If we must, think back to the days of high piracy. Pirates and privateers didn't attack military ships. They went after lightly armed traders for the precise reason we do....they can't fight back.


They did occasionally attack military ships, just not very often. Most pirate ships could give any naval vessel on it's own a run for it's money and then some. They went after traders not because they were easy targets, but because that's where the money was, or (quite often) they were ordered to. Many pirates/privateers weren't independent outlaws, but were private contractors that work for their respective governments to harass the enemies supply lines during times of "peace."

The main goal of of pirates rarely was, or even still is, the kill, or even the plunder. It was then the prize money given to them for every ship they brought back. in modern piracy, it's the ransom money.

You're playing to the fantasy of high seas piracy, not to the reality.
Stimfisk Lennelluc
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2013-11-11 06:36:59 UTC
I peeveepee
Ryhss
#13 - 2013-11-11 06:41:49 UTC
Stimfisk Lennelluc wrote:
I peeveepee

I just pee.

I just turned into an egg, did I level up? I spent an hour trying to salvage a wreck, when in local a guy said "Stop it, this is my Tempest, I was AFK"

Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC
#14 - 2013-11-11 06:46:37 UTC
#mypvpisbetterthanyours

RATE LIKE SUBSCRIBE

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#15 - 2013-11-11 06:48:09 UTC
Marvel at my PvP-ness!

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Lady Areola Fappington
#16 - 2013-11-11 07:30:06 UTC
Snagletooth Johnson wrote:


They did occasionally attack military ships, just not very often. Most pirate ships could give any naval vessel on it's own a run for it's money and then some. They went after traders not because they were easy targets, but because that's where the money was, or (quite often) they were ordered to. Many pirates/privateers weren't independent outlaws, but were private contractors that work for their respective governments to harass the enemies supply lines during times of "peace."

The main goal of of pirates rarely was, or even still is, the kill, or even the plunder. It was then the prize money given to them for every ship they brought back. in modern piracy, it's the ransom money.

You're playing to the fantasy of high seas piracy, not to the reality.



We play in a world where death doesn't happen, and the most efficient way to plunder a target is to destroy it. My goal is to force my targets to buy new ships at my nicely inflated price.

Why do freighter gankers kill freighters? That's where the money is. Why do miner gankers gank barges...economic incentive of some kind (Yes there are people who want to see the world burn but if you're looking for logic, here it is.).

What confuses me, is why "carebears" stick up so fiercely for their direct competition. A gank is only bad if it happens to you, and statistically, you aren't the target. Miner Tentpeg and Miner Snaplink are in a belt chewing ore. If I kill Tentpeg, then Snaplink has more ore to collect and sell.

Personally, I'd love having a group around willing to pop my direct competition. Some miners grasp that, and lend us a covert hand. Others complain on the forum.



As for "not being real PVP", I personally consider anything done in EVE to be PVP. Just because it doesn't fall into your eBushido definition, doesn't change the fact that it's a person acting against another in a competitive nature.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide

Erotica 1
Krypteia Operations
#17 - 2013-11-11 08:36:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Erotica 1
Eduard Khil XD wrote:
Hi. I'd like to start this post by saying I'm a big fan of James 315's writing, the work he does, and the concepts he presents.
I don't know much about Erotica or if he writes well, so I'll reserve my judgement about him.

However, I have a question for Erotica, James 315 and hisec scammers/gankers in general:

Do you often PvP where there is a risk of you losing? And if not, can what you do really be called PvP if there is only one side to the engagement?

Allow me to elaborate. Two fleets meet in a situation where they can engage freely.
Battle commences, FCs make their plays, skill, strategy and other factors decide the winner— the fight is wrapped up.
Every time you engage, you're putting your own assets and time on the line, as are your opponents.
Who the enemy are is totally transparent. Finding their staging system is usually no problem—you can often attack said group at your leisure, or even follow them around if you hold a grudge.

Now enter the world of hisec ganking and scamming. There is no way to hold a grudge or retaliate against an alt that does not undock in ships that are significantly valuable, and the way most scammers behave, no way to scam them back.

Now, before you call me a supporter of risk free PvE or hisec, I'm not.
In fact, EVE might be a better game if they just removed hisec altogether v0v.
Risk free PvE income that can be used in PvP is imbalanced.

You'd probobly agree that when players do these kind of activities there is minimal risk of loss to them. There's no point in attacking their gank catalyst, and no way to find out their main.

Why should CCP work to preserve this kind of playstyle?
If you are not in a conflict where your enemy can retaliate, why do you find it fun?
Should you be allowed to perform any activity in EVE without repercussions/consequences?
Why should you be allowed to use any method for scamming if you are completely detached from your PvP main?


I actually addressed some of your questions in my press conference. The TL/DR version is:

1. I am a terrible pilot and lose ships all the time. Look at my killboard. Note my terrible fits and some of the locations, far from Jita.

2. I did propose some ideas for adjustments to Concord and ganking, as well as freighter fitting. I think you would like some of my ideas and some gankers will be pissed for what I had to say- but they are some honest ideas of mine I'd like seeing debated.

3. I did address my disdain for scammers or other spammers for rolling characters to evade blocks. I have done well by building a brand despite the thousands of blocks. I also proposed some ideas for debate (that I have previously brought up on the forums) for a sort of spam tax and ad cost which would totally change Jita, quite possibly costing me billions. But even though it may cost me, I still think would improve the game for more people than it would negatively affect me.

4. I support the sandbox and all playstyles- or rather all activities, even if I have strong opinions personally on some.


*edit* Thanks for the good questions. I look forward to discussing these and others live with you sometime.

Warm Regards,

-Ero

See Bio for isk doubling rules. If you didn't read bio, chances are you funded those who did.

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#18 - 2013-11-11 09:16:55 UTC
ganking shouldn't be a playstyle stop all ganking now

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2013-11-11 09:25:12 UTC
In practically 100% of the PvP fights I participate in, my enemy has big weapons and powerful friends on his side, so powerful that I always lose my ship. My ~elite PvP~ skills however are so good that I always come out ahead in the ISK war!
JC Anderson
RED ROSE THORN
#20 - 2013-11-11 09:27:03 UTC  |  Edited by: JC Anderson
Ankblahblah however you spelled her name was downright anti pvp uber carebear. Yet she did win a csm seat with the second highest vote count of all candidates...

Then she started throwing spoons at other csm.
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