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To floggeth a dead horse...eth

First post
Author
N'maro Makari
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#81 - 2013-11-09 15:44:42 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
N'maro Makari wrote:
(Whiteknighting CCP)


Thanks for taking the time to put together such well considered feedback. We really appreciate it and will take these points on board in our retrospective on the event.


Heh, quoting myself:

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Lemming Alpha1dash1 wrote:
PS: here is a way to better understand the grievances

http://jestertrek.blogspot.nl/2013/11/backfire.html

The attackers expected a CCP-run live event. Instead to net it out, the attacker's position is that they...
•were left by the event organizers to fend for themselves;
•were not given adequate instructions on what to do;
•were not organized into effective fleets;
•were not led by trustworthy FCs; and,
•that CCP in essence led a couple of thousand EVE players into a deathtrap from which there was no escape.
And then to add insult to injury, CCP subjected them to 23 jumps of 10% TiDi.


I'm sure that CCP is already figuring a way to spin that in a positive light. Roll


I don't know what your team pretended, CCP Goliath. But delivering hiseccers PvE hisec content is a way, way, WAY safer way to make them enjoy your efforts than throw them into nullsec in the worst possible way.


Nobody was thrown anywhere, all of us made a conscious choice to go to null. Did you actually expect CCP to be protecting you like some big mother sea-lion?

**Vherokior **

Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#82 - 2013-11-09 15:47:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
I was at work when this happened, so I have no personal investment in it. However:

N'maro Makari wrote:
Unsub then? They don't have to look after you.


You're aware that CCP employees are prohibited from scamming and ganking, right? CCP is aware that their employees' status means that they can't indulge in the same level of skullduggery that players can. Therefore, there is a reasonable expectation that CCP employees will not engage in the kinds of skullduggery that players do.

Not to mention that all the bafflement about high sec players not organizing into doctrine fleets with logi and good FCs is hilarious. That's an entire play style, not something you throw together on a few hours' notice. Doctrines work because of the training and advance preparation that is usually done far before anyone undocks: there are known FCs, published fits, established communication channels, and the players have time to get the money, the hull and the fittings to conform. There are established staging areas full of doctrine ships. There are a bare handful of high sec entities of any size with that level of organization, because fleet action is not a major component of high sec play. Besides, even those high sec fleets that were competently organized and directed (EVE University's, those of the incursion communities that weren't on their mains, fighting for the defenders) were still stuck in Time Dilation several jumps out when the event ended.

Odds are that most of the "known" and "infamous" null sec staging systems were completely unknown to most of the people flying through them. What reason does the average high sec player have for knowing where PL, or RZR, or CONDI stages from? These are not important things for them to remember.

N'maro Makari wrote:
And if you let Goons lead you into null you definitely deserve to be podded.


Alts are a thing.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#83 - 2013-11-09 15:57:35 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
I was at work when this happened, so I have no personal investment in it. However:

N'maro Makari wrote:
Unsub then? They don't have to look after you.


You're aware that CCP employees are prohibited from scamming and ganking, right? CCP is aware that their employees' status means that they can't indulge in the same level of skullduggery that players can. Therefore, there is a reasonable expectation that CCP employees will not engage in the kinds of skullduggery that players do.

Not to mention that all the bafflement about high sec players not organizing into doctrine fleets with logi and good FCs is hilarious. That's an entire play style, not something you throw together on a few hours' notice. Doctrines work because of the training and advance preparation that is usually done far before anyone undocks: there are known FCs, published fits, established communication channels, and the players have time to get the money, the hull and the fittings to conform. They have established staging areas full of doctrine ships. There are a bare handful of high sec entities of any size with that level of organization, because fleet action is not a major component of high sec play. Besides, even those high sec fleets that were competently organized and directed (EVE University's, those of the incursion communities that weren't on their mains, fighting for the defenders) were still stuck in Time Dilation several jumps out when the event ended.

Odds are that most of the "known" and "infamous" null sec staging systems were completely unknown to most of the people flying through them. What reason does the average high sec player have for knowing where PL, or RZR, or CONDI stages from? These are not important things for them to remember.

N'maro Makari wrote:
And if you let Goons lead you into null you definitely deserve to be podded.


Alts are a thing.


A request has been made for CCP to explain their companies position on this, We can all make our decision as to whether to continue financing them based on their response.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

DenForX
Resource Extraction Partners
#84 - 2013-11-10 00:01:43 UTC
N'maro Makari wrote:
DenForX wrote:
N'maro Makari wrote:

Let me ask you what did you actually loose on this event? Did you actually loose anything irreplaceable?


Every ship lost in Eve represents an irreplaceable quantity of time. The hours spent and by many considered wasted are also lost time. The attitude, silence and apparent ineptitude of CCP in running this giant cow patty wastes player good will.

Both are precious and irreplaceable commodities and companies in the entertainment/customer service business need to be particularly wary of wasting either with regards to their customer base.

CCP has shown a careless disregard for both in the missteps they have made and it makes me wonder how many more missteps they can make before the player base has enough and seeks to spend their time and good will elsewhere? Other space games are coming and while possibly not as diverse and in depth as Eve, competition that builds a better experience and is more responsive to the customer base will seriously hurt CCP if they don't get their act together.

I do hope they get it together and soon because I can see where it is going if they do not.


Sweet Jesus

Why do you think CCP is at all obligated to protect your ships from destruction? Why are people pretending they were somehow tricked or forced into one of the most dangerous place in the game?

If your ships mean so much that they are so irreplaceable, my advice you would be, honestly, unsub and find a game where assets are not so disposable.


Why do you naively and irrationally assume that I am asking CCP for any protection for my ship? Why do you assume that people did not know where they were going? Why is your reading comprehension so poor and yet you play this game?

People were told that NPCs would run things or at least the illusion/perception of that was made based on past events and the actions of NPCs in the event. They did not.

People could somewhat assume that CCP was prepared for the event since they hosted it and could do it whenever they want. They clearly were not.

In the past, other than the defense of Caldari Prime event, these events have been PvE events and so people went with that as a historical reference. This was not.

You completely miss the point and have clearly proven you are incapable of seeing any other point than your own. Losing a ship is not the point and you can't seem to get past that. Wasting time on a poorly executed event at the hands of inept event management is the major point. I can lose ships all day if I enjoy it, learn something or otherwise benefit. Others can as well, I am sure and not worry about the cost IF they get something out of it. Ships are meaningless, my time is not and that is what most people upset about this event are really upset about. They spent a lot of time for a miserable event in a game that they PAY (another use of their time) for in order to be slaughtered and then made fun of. Now Mr. Apologist, how much sense does it make to you to pay for something that you don't get your money's worth out of? If you buy crap from a store, you go get your money back. People got sold crap for an event, they want their money back.

And just so you understand a little more clearly, the people on these boards are just the vocal ones. For every 1 here, there are as much as 10 others you won't hear from, they will just quietly unsubscribe. And if you think that losing subscriptions is in any way good for the game, you are living in a fantasy land.
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#85 - 2013-11-10 01:33:23 UTC
I pretty much agree with what op said in his first post.

Only few things to add:

1. it would be better if CCP waited for people a bit longer when they were traveling in TiDi.

2. it would be better if CCP explained final goals better, 'cause fleet I was in didn't really get where it supposed to go and what it supposed to do when it will get there.

3. maybe have more than 2 destinations( 3, 5 etc.), but that comes down to how many people they have that are working on this events.
Alaric Faelen
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#86 - 2013-11-10 01:52:36 UTC
N'maro Makari, my friend you have won Eve Online.

The sheer lack of nerd rage in your analysis is a unicorn among these threads.

Lator Mors
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#87 - 2013-11-10 07:36:54 UTC
At the end of the day, it comes down to trust and likliehood to recommend.

I took a day off work to participate in the first event in a long while. I expected to die, so chose an alt that could hold it's own but had no implants I wasn't willing to lose. I was late, got on teamspeak to hear of 10% TDli, a change in staging system, and a 0.0 Razor desti. I immediately switched to Civ5 for the day.

If this was Hulkaggeddon or Burn Jita, or some other player-driven event, all participants would know what they're getting into and take whatever consequences came from it. This was a CCP event, so noobs and carebears went in trusting that there would be a certain amount of story/direction/purpose to what was happening. Big Mistake.

But whose mistake?

I've played Eve since 2007 (different toon obviously) and have lived in high-sec, lowsec, 0.0, and W-space. Am I pissed that I lost a vacation-day to this crappy event? Damn right I am. Do I take some responsibility for the decision to take that risk? Absolutely.

But a lot of folks who aren't as experienced at this game, and can (and should be) forgiven their "naivite", feel (rightly) screwed over by CCP.

Eve is a harsh world, and many of us learned that the hard way, but in a "new world" where CCP is trying to help Noobs through training programs (and things like "safeties" on guns and anti-ninja/auto salvaging deployables, etc, etc, add whatever you've lost over the years here), a certain level of care is expected.

In the end, as a business seeking new customers, it comes down to likliehood to recommend. Are CCP's customer likely to recommend Eve to their friends? Are new players likely to stay?

I personally see this as another nail in the CCP new-player-relations coffin. An unfortunate side-effect of a corporate culture that is clearly torn between appeasing their 0.0 overlords and developing new business, and one that goes against the stated goals of the company. I see hundreds of dissatisfied customers and barely a response from CCP which sends the message - right or wrong - that they don't care.

Businesses live and die on likelihood to recommend. How likely is it that any given customer is going to recommend your product/service/game to their friends/colleauges/families over a competitor? Based on this event, and the near-total lack of response from CCP, how likely are you to recommend your friends start or keep playing the game? My guess is that this has done absolutely nothing to drive subs and has probably resulted in a net loss. Is that a good thing going into a major update like Rubicon? If it were my product, I'd think not, and I'd be scrambling to make things right.

I've read all the usual highsec carebear vs. 0.0 "PvP Gods" rhetoric. What I haven't seen is a reasonable/reasoned CCP response that actually acknowledges the impact this has had on the 1000-odd angry, paying customers who had a crappy customer experience. It's kind of reminiscent of a certain monacle-related incident except that the monacle-issue impacted everyone, not just the highsec&new player base. CCP refers to us as "capsuleers". I think of myself as a customer.

So, the question is how CCP chooses to deal with it. They could continue to ignore it and lose new customers while making our 0.0 brethren feel special. They could try to justify it through lore, appeasing the minority of us who actually pay attention to such things; or they could admit that they screwed up, apologize, and (maybe) compensate folks for losses of isk/time/etc (a token, perhaps).

I think this is much more of a tipping point/definng moment for CCP than many people, perhaps even themselves, realize. It's certainly an opportunity for them to make a statement about who they are as an organisation and how they view their customers (sorry, capsuleers).

I'm not rage-quitting. I'm not calling for heads on a platter or demanding the ISK-rquivalent of a day's wage.

I'm watching CCP's response and based on that, deciding how much money and time I want to put in their basket, because I enjoyed my day of playing Civ 5 quite a bit and I hear there's a new space combat sim on kickstarter that could be interesting...

N'maro Makari
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#88 - 2013-11-10 15:43:42 UTC
You know, as a dedicated RPer and amateur lore buff of nearly 2 years, I understand the frustration of some that the event (seemingly) didn't elaborate more on whatever story arc it was, or that it didn't seem to have much purpose.

But one of the things we should bear in mind about this game is that there is never a guarantee of winning any given situation, we didn't win so we don't have the beloved lore breadcrumb, but if CCP made it so that it could be loseable, they might have something in mind to turn it around and give us more clues. I don't think I'd ever ask anyone to have faith in any company, but just that we keep our eyes open and be ready for the next thing.

**Vherokior **

Atsuko Yamamoto
Doom Generation
Best Intentions.
#89 - 2013-11-10 16:18:32 UTC
I may be wrong, but it kinda seems like they were trying to in some way get the players to react to the Empire factions badly as this is the warm up for Rubicon. But CCP seems to not realize most players do not look at the NPCs in the events as the npcs of the Matar/Gall/Amarr/Cald but rather as CCP itself. So if you lead them through 2 hours of TiDi to a nullsec killzone, they're not going to react to the Empires, they are going to react to CCP.

To me there are two EVEs;

One is where we gank, build, awox, scam, smack, wardec, and generally try make each other miserable.

The other is some fantasy we read about.

EVE Lore for me is something totally detached from the actual game itself.
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#90 - 2013-11-10 16:23:37 UTC
I think that the point was to cross a line that one can't come back from. From the perspective of a highsec player who stays there, crossing into null is exactly that line. Without the heavy tidi, I think they would have gotten the exact event that they were hoping for. They got a much higher turnout than expected, though, and it made tidi the major concern - it gave null more time to form up on their killboxes and cause mayhem at the objectives, and it prevented many players from even participating. The event's problem was a technical one.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#91 - 2013-11-10 16:32:32 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Scherezad wrote:
I think that the point was to cross a line that one can't come back from. From the perspective of a highsec player who stays there, crossing into null is exactly that line. Without the heavy tidi, I think they would have gotten the exact event that they were hoping for. They got a much higher turnout than expected, though, and it made tidi the major concern - it gave null more time to form up on their killboxes and cause mayhem at the objectives, and it prevented many players from even participating. The event's problem was a technical one.


I truly hope that the original issue was a technical one, but things have gone way beyond that.

The accusations are that CCP deliberately awoxed their hisec player base, for gain or giggles, and sending them into a known Nullsec killzone feeds that accusation.

If they did do that many people who have principles could not and would not continue to support such a toxic company

This may however be completely false or the actions of some rogue developers. I hope so.

If CCP do not respond to this issue people will assume the worst and act according to their principles. (Believe it or not most People do still have principles)

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#92 - 2013-11-10 16:47:01 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Scherezad wrote:
I think that the point was to cross a line that one can't come back from. From the perspective of a highsec player who stays there, crossing into null is exactly that line. Without the heavy tidi, I think they would have gotten the exact event that they were hoping for. They got a much higher turnout than expected, though, and it made tidi the major concern - it gave null more time to form up on their killboxes and cause mayhem at the objectives, and it prevented many players from even participating. The event's problem was a technical one.


I truly hope that the original issue was a technical one, but things have gone way beyond that.

The accusations are that CCP deliberately awoxed their hisec player base, for gain or giggles, and sending them into a known Nullsec killzone feeds that accusation.

If they did do that many people who have principles could not and would not continue to support such a toxic company

This may however be completely false or the actions of some rogue developers. I hope so.

If CCP do not respond to this issue people will assume the worst and act according to their principles. (Believe it or not most People do still have principles)

The Community team loves this game and the people who play it. That's (one of the reasons) why they were hired to be the Community team.

It's the weekend. I'm sure that they've been told, "Welp, can't get worse. Go recharge, next week's gonna suck." I probably would've released something saying that they wouldn't be reacting for the weekend, but I don't know whether that would have just made it worse or not. Either way, weought to find out some time on Monday.
Jennifer Maxwell
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#93 - 2013-11-10 17:59:10 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Scherezad wrote:
I think that the point was to cross a line that one can't come back from. From the perspective of a highsec player who stays there, crossing into null is exactly that line. Without the heavy tidi, I think they would have gotten the exact event that they were hoping for. They got a much higher turnout than expected, though, and it made tidi the major concern - it gave null more time to form up on their killboxes and cause mayhem at the objectives, and it prevented many players from even participating. The event's problem was a technical one.


I truly hope that the original issue was a technical one, but things have gone way beyond that.

The accusations are that CCP deliberately awoxed their hisec player base, for gain or giggles, and sending them into a known Nullsec killzone feeds that accusation.

If they did do that many people who have principles could not and would not continue to support such a toxic company

This may however be completely false or the actions of some rogue developers. I hope so.

If CCP do not respond to this issue people will assume the worst and act according to their principles. (Believe it or not most People do still have principles)

Do we have actual proof they did it for ***** and giggles, or are you just pulling that out of thing air and unfounded rumors?

I'm mad at CCP, sure. But considering the work they put into the game and how much they're pushing the lore lately, you're going to have a tall order to convince me that this was maliciousness on the part of CCP and that they colluded with the Null alliances.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#94 - 2013-11-10 18:16:05 UTC
Lator Mors wrote:


(CCP shot their foot... again)



Ishtanchuk Fazmarai: "So CCP took your assets, your time and your trust and then wasted them horribly?"
New player: "Yes, ma'am" (sobs)
IF: "Welcome to the club, new pilot" (pats back)

The funny thing with wasting your unexperienced player's assets, time and trust, is that assets don't matter (much), but time and trust can't be reimbursed.

I wonder what was the purpose, but it turned into a disaster. Probably CCP Goliath & al will be able to draw useful lessons and maybe even spin it positively, but to the ~2,000 people they fu'ed, the only lesson is: don't trust CCP.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#95 - 2013-11-10 19:47:55 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Jennifer Maxwell wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Scherezad wrote:
I think that the point was to cross a line that one can't come back from. From the perspective of a highsec player who stays there, crossing into null is exactly that line. Without the heavy tidi, I think they would have gotten the exact event that they were hoping for. They got a much higher turnout than expected, though, and it made tidi the major concern - it gave null more time to form up on their killboxes and cause mayhem at the objectives, and it prevented many players from even participating. The event's problem was a technical one.


I truly hope that the original issue was a technical one, but things have gone way beyond that.

The accusations are that CCP deliberately awoxed their hisec player base, for gain or giggles, and sending them into a known Nullsec killzone feeds that accusation.

If they did do that many people who have principles could not and would not continue to support such a toxic company

This may however be completely false or the actions of some rogue developers. I hope so.

If CCP do not respond to this issue people will assume the worst and act according to their principles. (Believe it or not most People do still have principles)

Do we have actual proof they did it for ***** and giggles, or are you just pulling that out of thing air and unfounded rumors?

I'm mad at CCP, sure. But considering the work they put into the game and how much they're pushing the lore lately, you're going to have a tall order to convince me that this was maliciousness on the part of CCP and that they colluded with the Null alliances.

It has been raised by a number of people and across the internet, Hopefully completely untrue, Hopefully CCP will reassure us that it is completely without foundation.
If this Event had been organised by an outside company It would be understandable that people getting funneled into the worst and potentially most active killzone in the game could be due to lack of knowledge. And then delay the hisec fleet to have time for null to prepare a massacre.
It is hard to believe that CCP have no knowledge of in game mechanics or Geography however, Which gives credibility to these claims that would be otherwise disregarded as foolish or Tinfoil hattery.

How this now plays out is entirely in CCPs hands
They will move on or fall at this hurdle depending on the next few days.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Speedkermit Damo
Invicta.
Muffins of Mayhem
#96 - 2013-11-10 21:36:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Speedkermit Damo
darmwand wrote:
It's a bit sad to see the reactions from the player base. I mean sure, from what I've read the event didn't quite go as anticipated and it seems that there was a lot of confusion and poor communications, but still, CCP were trying to do something fun and I'm sure they'll learn from their mistakes. It's not like they're obliged to do these events and I think that by sending constructive feedback rather than "**** you CCP you suck" we can encourage them to do better next time.



CCP were certainly trying to do something fun for the playerbase. Or least that section of the player base called the CFC. Everyone else involved were basically thrown under bus to provide the CFC with their fun.

CCP devs simply arranged an enormous gank for the benefit of their CFC alts and their mates.

I've been playing Eve for just over a year, love the game. But the way this company operates at times is astonishing. It may be that some or all of this company are not completely bent, but it sure looks that way sometimes.

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.

Lator Mors
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#97 - 2013-11-10 22:40:30 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Lator Mors wrote:


(CCP shot their foot... again)



I didn't write that...
El Jin'meiko
Warcrows
Shattered Foundations
#98 - 2013-11-10 23:38:46 UTC  |  Edited by: El Jin'meiko
It's true, CCP does not have to babysit the players, nor do they have to provide any real idea of what is going on in an individuals game BUT an event manager should, you want to create an event, you want player participation n and everyone to have a good time? better damned well keep it as organized and ship shape as you can then, and if that means providing information well in advance then so be it.

I most certainly would not organize a party by tell everyone a day or two before without giving them any real idea of where it will be or what will happen then, while picking them up in my slow ass mini van take the scenic route and when we finally arrive at our destination say "that's it the parties done", not to mention never organizing any system or dj/band, and then say "well its your fault for turning up, why didn't you bring any beer or music?"

For those saying CCP will learn, well here's the thing, its been 10 years now and they still haven't.
N'maro Makari
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#99 - 2013-11-11 04:04:09 UTC
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
darmwand wrote:
It's a bit sad to see the reactions from the player base. I mean sure, from what I've read the event didn't quite go as anticipated and it seems that there was a lot of confusion and poor communications, but still, CCP were trying to do something fun and I'm sure they'll learn from their mistakes. It's not like they're obliged to do these events and I think that by sending constructive feedback rather than "**** you CCP you suck" we can encourage them to do better next time.



CCP were certainly trying to do something fun for the playerbase. Or least that section of the player base called the CFC. Everyone else involved were basically thrown under bus to provide the CFC with their fun.

CCP devs simply arranged an enormous gank for the benefit of their CFC alts and their mates.

I've been playing Eve for just over a year, love the game. But the way this company operates at times is astonishing. It may be that some or all of this company are not completely bent, but it sure looks that way sometimes.


Plays EVE for only a year - Knows anything and everything about how CCP works

Sorry to pull years, but it seems way ridiculous that you've played for so little time and yet make sweeping statements about what goes on in CCP HQ.

**Vherokior **

Killerjock
Von Neumann Industries
#100 - 2013-11-11 08:38:55 UTC
N'maro Makari wrote:
Plays EVE for only a year - Knows anything and everything about how CCP works

Sorry to pull years, but it seems way ridiculous that you've played for so little time and yet make sweeping statements about what goes on in CCP HQ.


Plays EVE for 2 tyears - hasn't heard of alts.

You'll find an alt of mine that has 3 months. Doesn't mean the player has played for 3 months. Also, this is my second account while the other has about six more months. 'Nuff said?

It seems way ridicolous that you judge a post by the date at which the character has been created.
Ideas and concepts should be discussed independently of who expressed them.