These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

First post First post First post
Author
Shade Alidiana
PROSPERO Corporation
#261 - 2013-11-08 20:24:38 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Drahomi'r Bozi'dar wrote:
Overall, im not a fan of the proposed 50s shooting, 40s reloading aspect. Mathematically it might be "fair" but sitting around waiting on 40s reloads doesnt sound "fun" to me...


By way of comparison, 1400mm artillery users have to wait 29 seconds between each shot.

My tempest didn't know that and shoots every 16 sec
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#262 - 2013-11-08 20:27:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Octavian Madullier wrote:
but still ... 40 seconds ??? ...

It's something different, which as far as I'm concerned is a welcome change for missiles.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Octavian Madullier
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#263 - 2013-11-08 20:28:01 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Fires for 50s, reloads for 40.

I surely can't be the first person to think two weapon groups allowing for either constant, sustained damage yet with the option of massive spike application.


LOL ... no you are not ... its the obvious way to use them ...and u have different missile types in each group thus avoided having only kinetic loaded when facing Caldari ...

In a world where data is coin of the realm,  and transmissions are guarded by no better sentinels than man-made codes and corruptible devices, there is no such thing as a secret. Dr Kio Masada

Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#264 - 2013-11-08 20:29:15 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Kat Ayclism wrote:
Holy crap that's terrible ******* idea


Would love if you expanded a bit.


Ancillary shield boosters were OP from the start (active tank immune to neut, can fit more than one). Did you remove them? No, you buffed them (introducing smaller versions of navy cap boosters).
You tossed a bone at armor tankes with AARs that are'nt neut immune and you can't fit several of.
Now you add ancillary missile launchers.

Please stop with this ancillary madness. The only selling point of the concept is that it allows to "burst". Overheating already covered this. It is redundant and balance braking. Just stop it.

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#265 - 2013-11-08 20:30:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Iris Bravemount wrote:
Overheating already covered this.

Oooh, thanks for mentioning that. RLML's get a 15% rate of fire bonus, so that translates into about 27 seconds of overheated firing time then a cooldown of 40 seconds while it reloads. Awesome! Twisted

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#266 - 2013-11-08 20:31:19 UTC
Shade Alidiana wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Drahomi'r Bozi'dar wrote:
Overall, im not a fan of the proposed 50s shooting, 40s reloading aspect. Mathematically it might be "fair" but sitting around waiting on 40s reloads doesnt sound "fun" to me...


By way of comparison, 1400mm artillery users have to wait 29 seconds between each shot.

My tempest didn't know that and shoots every 16 sec


Oh hello RoF bonus. I didn't see you come in there.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#267 - 2013-11-08 20:31:24 UTC
Octavian Madullier wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Fires for 50s, reloads for 40.

I surely can't be the first person to think two weapon groups allowing for either constant, sustained damage yet with the option of massive spike application.


LOL ... no you are not ... its the obvious way to use them ...and u have different missile types in each group thus avoided having only kinetic loaded when facing Caldari ...



While there are a few situations that this is a good plan, this is also similar to "ungrouping" your artillery weapons. More often than not, you want to put as much damage on your target as quickly as possible.

SOL Ranger
Imperial Armed Forces
#268 - 2013-11-08 20:37:13 UTC
Shade Alidiana wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Drahomi'r Bozi'dar wrote:
Overall, im not a fan of the proposed 50s shooting, 40s reloading aspect. Mathematically it might be "fair" but sitting around waiting on 40s reloads doesnt sound "fun" to me...


By way of comparison, 1400mm artillery users have to wait 29 seconds between each shot.

My tempest didn't know that and shoots every 16 sec



Tempest simply doesn't care.

The Vargur requires launcher hardpoints, following tempest tradition.

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#269 - 2013-11-08 20:38:35 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Octavian Madullier wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Fires for 50s, reloads for 40.

I surely can't be the first person to think two weapon groups allowing for either constant, sustained damage yet with the option of massive spike application.


LOL ... no you are not ... its the obvious way to use them ...and u have different missile types in each group thus avoided having only kinetic loaded when facing Caldari ...



While there are a few situations that this is a good plan, this is also similar to "ungrouping" your artillery weapons. More often than not, you want to put as much damage on your target as quickly as possible.



That's exactly what makes this an effective buff, at least for PvP.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Octavian Madullier
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#270 - 2013-11-08 20:39:12 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Awesome change. Provides the ability for a battleship to screen a fleet against interceptors, though you have to overcome the extremely long lock time of a battleship.

People will need to get on Singularity and fly fleets of frigates, cruisers and battlecruisers against their navy ravens with RHMLs in order to understand the difference between a burst of 1000DPS against an interceptor with RHMLs versus sustained 1000DPS with cruise missiles against the same target.

CCP Rise, what about the possibility of reducing the reload time and reducing the firing rate, and shifting the high-DPS mode of this weapon system to overloading? This means the pilot has the option of:

  • firing for, say, 70 seconds until the RHML burns out
  • firing in bursts and applying paste to prepare for the next burst, or
  • firing a sustained stream of missiles at far lower DPS without heat.


Just move the DPS bonus and "40 second reload timer" to the overheat mechanics of this weapon system. And then provide some means for battleships to lock frigates in reasonable amounts of time so the front-loaded DPS can actually be applied.

The "screen" ability would especially be enhanced with a special targeting system, similar to a passive targeting system, which allows any ship to "save up" a triple-speed target lock. This targeting assistance module would be exclusive to sensor boosters, sensor amplifiers or sensor links, with a penalty of one-third target locking speed while recharging.

So interceptor arrives, tries to light cyno. You (the pilot of the fighter-screen battleship) use the targeting assistance module to lock the interceptor, and you overheat the RHMLs to bring the interceptor down. Once the interceptor is dead you are now "down for the count" while repairing your launchers and recharging the targeting assistance module.



as someone who loves using missiles ... that is a VERY good idea and use of the RHML on the screeninng battleship ... CCP RIse ... please consider this ...

In a world where data is coin of the realm,  and transmissions are guarded by no better sentinels than man-made codes and corruptible devices, there is no such thing as a secret. Dr Kio Masada

Admiral Rufus
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#271 - 2013-11-08 20:41:38 UTC
This is a bloody terrible idea, 40seconds reload time?! Ohtge target is tanked towards my loaded damage type, no matter I'll just wait 40 ******* seconds to change it. Oh I'm dead
Sebastien LeReparteur
SpaceTravelers Freelance Corp
#272 - 2013-11-08 20:42:11 UTC
pretty good, a caracal won't be able to eat though a dozen frigs like this, one or two then the table turns on it.

Nice I love this approach!
Narwz
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#273 - 2013-11-08 20:51:39 UTC
So many words to describe a way to just butcher Caracal and Cerb in small gang pvp. Oh well.
Miks Rebelius
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#274 - 2013-11-08 20:52:43 UTC
What if I use PLEX to make them reload faster? Everybody wins right?
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#275 - 2013-11-08 20:54:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
Octavian Madullier wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Awesome change. Provides the ability for a battleship to screen a fleet against interceptors, though you have to overcome the extremely long lock time of a battleship.

People will need to get on Singularity and fly fleets of frigates, cruisers and battlecruisers against their navy ravens with RHMLs in order to understand the difference between a burst of 1000DPS against an interceptor with RHMLs versus sustained 1000DPS with cruise missiles against the same target.

CCP Rise, what about the possibility of reducing the reload time and reducing the firing rate, and shifting the high-DPS mode of this weapon system to overloading? This means the pilot has the option of:

  • firing for, say, 70 seconds until the RHML burns out
  • firing in bursts and applying paste to prepare for the next burst, or
  • firing a sustained stream of missiles at far lower DPS without heat.


Just move the DPS bonus and "40 second reload timer" to the overheat mechanics of this weapon system. And then provide some means for battleships to lock frigates in reasonable amounts of time so the front-loaded DPS can actually be applied.

The "screen" ability would especially be enhanced with a special targeting system, similar to a passive targeting system, which allows any ship to "save up" a triple-speed target lock. This targeting assistance module would be exclusive to sensor boosters, sensor amplifiers or sensor links, with a penalty of one-third target locking speed while recharging.

So interceptor arrives, tries to light cyno. You (the pilot of the fighter-screen battleship) use the targeting assistance module to lock the interceptor, and you overheat the RHMLs to bring the interceptor down. Once the interceptor is dead you are now "down for the count" while repairing your launchers and recharging the targeting assistance module.



as someone who loves using missiles ... that is a VERY good idea and use of the RHML on the screeninng battleship ... CCP RIse ... please consider this ...


It doesnt work because hmls hit interceptors for next to no damage. With triple bcs, a typhoon with RHML is hitting a stiletto for about 60 dps. That damage is projected to less than interceptor point range.

Edit: That is with precision missiles. With faction missiles, you can do about 40 dps out to 60k or so (but not really since missile range is reduced by high target velocity)

Edit 2: Here is a screenshot of my stiletto tanking about 20 drakes off my passive shield regen. http://i.imgur.com/m8Aw9.jpg
They were probably all shooting fury at me, which means 8000 eft missile dps translated to maybe 20 real dps.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#276 - 2013-11-08 20:58:58 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Octavian Madullier wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Fires for 50s, reloads for 40.

I surely can't be the first person to think two weapon groups allowing for either constant, sustained damage yet with the option of massive spike application.


LOL ... no you are not ... its the obvious way to use them ...and u have different missile types in each group thus avoided having only kinetic loaded when facing Caldari ...



While there are a few situations that this is a good plan, this is also similar to "ungrouping" your artillery weapons. More often than not, you want to put as much damage on your target as quickly as possible.



Yes but you have the option, you have the choice.

I'm more interested to know what hull bonuses apply and what their thoughts around reloads/ammo type are.

These feel a bit too niche to me, they'll be excellent ambush/camp/gank weapons but beyond that....questionable.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#277 - 2013-11-08 21:07:00 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Octavian Madullier wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Fires for 50s, reloads for 40.

I surely can't be the first person to think two weapon groups allowing for either constant, sustained damage yet with the option of massive spike application.


LOL ... no you are not ... its the obvious way to use them ...and u have different missile types in each group thus avoided having only kinetic loaded when facing Caldari ...



While there are a few situations that this is a good plan, this is also similar to "ungrouping" your artillery weapons. More often than not, you want to put as much damage on your target as quickly as possible.



That's exactly what makes this an effective buff, at least for PvP.


This isn't a buff.
CptBipto
Bare Minimum Bandits
I Showed You My Probes... Please Respond...
#278 - 2013-11-08 21:07:17 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hi!

As you guys know, we're introducing Rapid Heavy Missile Launchers in Rubicon for battleships that will echo the Rapid Light Launchers in design. Well, now that the current design has been out and available for discussion for awhile, we've taken on a lot of feedback and we don't feel completely satisfied with them.

The problem we're facing is that it's very hard to create a good balance between rapid launchers and their on-size counterparts(torpedo launchers, cruise launchers, heavy missile launchers and heavy assault missile launchers). Currently I feel we have the numbers high enough that they are almost always the right choice, but if we tune them down at all they will almost never be the right choice. We would much rather that the decision to use rapid launchers depended heavily on context and that you would choose them not because they were generally better than their competition but because your specific situation called for them.

Here's the plan to improve the situation:

Rapid Launchers (both Light and Heavy) will be changed to have a much higher damage per second number, roughly on par with Heavy Assault Launchers and Torpedo Launchers respectively, but their ammo capacity will be reduced and their reload time will be increased increased (think Ancilliary Shield Boosters). Some specifics:

Rapid Light Missile Launcher rate of fire set to:
Rapid Light Missile Launcher I ------------------------- 7.8s
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II ------------------------- 6.24s
Prototype 'Arbalest' Rapid Light Missile Launcher --- 6.24s
Other meta types not shown

Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher rate of fire set to:
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher I ------------------------ 6.48s
Rapid Heavy Missile launcher II ------------------------- 5.185s
'Arbalest' Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher I ------------ 5.185s
Other meta types not shown

Reload time for both groups set to 40 seconds.

T2 Rapid Light Launchers can carry roughly 18 charges
T2 Rapid Heavy Launchers can carry roughly 23 charges

This translates to a Raven with 3x BCU, T2 Rapid Heavy Launchers and Scourge Fury missiles doing 926 dps
This translates to a Caracal with 3x BCU, T2 Rapid Light Launchers and Scourge Fury missiles doing 409 dps


Both ships would have around 50 seconds of up time followed by 40 seconds of reload meaning that over extended engagements their true dps would be a bit more than half of the dps number above.

This would provide new strategic gameplay for Rapid Missile users as well as their opponents. It would make these systems stronger against ships that can be killed inside the active window(smaller ships) but worse over longer fights, which would usually mean fights against ships in the same class or larger. It would generally be more interesting but would also leave more space for the main missile systems to thrive as well.

Let me know what you think and keep in mind that numbers may be adjusted slightly as we continue to test.
Thanks


Rapid lights should get about 30 rounds to its payload and a 15 - 20 second reload, 40 seconds is far to long with for what you are trying to do. i see where you are going with the whole specific fit for the specific situation.

I don't ever see me using rapid heavy's for a long time so i'm not going to talk about it.

I don't see this being used "noob tear blob fest space", so it is a bit refreshing to see empire space get some new combat tactics.

I can see this working if you don't listen to the guy who convinced ccp to implement nurf guns to the Caldari arsenal, instead of just shaving off the excess of the rapid lights that made it over the top
Kane Fenris
NWP
#279 - 2013-11-08 21:09:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Kane Fenris
Michael Harari wrote:

Edit 2: Here is a screenshot of my stiletto tanking about 20 drakes off my passive shield regen. http://i.imgur.com/m8Aw9.jpg
They were probably all shooting fury at me, which means 8000 eft missile dps translated to maybe 20 real dps.


20 drakes without even 1 TP they deserved it...

eve uni blob?
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#280 - 2013-11-08 21:10:07 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Jesus fcking christ. This is a terrible idea.

1) 40 seconds to change damage types. No, just no.
2) 40 seconds to change from Fury to Faction or to Precision. ****, might as well not have precision anymore.
3) After I blow my load, I have to be quasi-jammed for 40 seconds. Refractory periods suck, man.