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Industry in wormholes
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Omir Kajil
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2013-11-07 01:11:27 UTC
I am curious. I have recently decided to try my hand at industry, and since I am also always drawn by the allure of wormholes, I am considering doing industry in wormholes. What would this be like? What skills and such would I need of would be most beneficial?

I have experience running sites in lower class wh's, missioning, etc, but I am very noob-esque in the area of science and industry. Any answers or thoughts are appreciated!

Omir
Marsan
#2 - 2013-11-07 01:43:03 UTC
Industry in WH sucks as:

- POS don't refine minerals very well
- Grav sites are not always available, and there are no belts
- You have to worry about pvp

In short it's a nice hobby in to do in a WH, but short of doing reactions, and research it doesn't make sense. What makes you isk in WH:

- Sleeper loot (generally from connecting holes)
- PI

Which is not to say people don't do crazy things like build battleships, carriers, dreads, indy caps, and orcas in WHs but that's a different beast...

Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a grumpy small portion of the community.
Saede Riordan
Alexylva Paradox
#3 - 2013-11-07 01:53:51 UTC
the wormholes give you everything you need to do T3 production. Thats pretty fun.

Fear and Loathing in Internet Spaceships
Evangelina Nolen
Sama Guild
#4 - 2013-11-07 05:36:37 UTC
Hauling will be your biggest problem. Fuel for the extra towers & items out will be a burden.
Sushi Nardieu
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2013-11-07 06:36:23 UTC
high-sec is where industry wins, really.

The exception is if you want to role-play or something...

The Guns of Knowledge 
xXxGaNj4L0RD1337xXx
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2013-11-07 10:21:49 UTC
Just don't.
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#7 - 2013-11-07 19:28:15 UTC
The only decent wh industry is either:

making the t3 items in your hole then moving the finished stuff to market (ofc there is a risk of poping)
making ammo and drones for your ppl, saves on hauling that stuff in
doing pi
reacting gas, or if you want reacting moon goo, but the moon goo needs to be imported, and that's a pita.

Everything else is more trouble then its worth. I mine and reprocess the ore, but only to do gas reactions, everything else you lose 50-25% of the ore you refine, as the refining array doesn't take skills into account and has a max efficiently of 75% (unless you are refining ice) and takes 3 hours to refine... sigh, they REALLY need to fix that.

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
7enn
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2013-11-07 21:13:43 UTC
Indy stuff you can do in HS ---> HS is best


Indy stuff you can't do in HS--->

WH (especially lower class) offer great protection from larger fish trying to swallow you up - they have to find you AND have the ambition to lump you up. It's not that hard to follow a careless player through k-space to their wh entrance, but if you're a careful player it's pretty tough to be found.

WH - if you're building T3 you don't have far to haul most of the materials.

Drugs - you save a lot of hauling time/effort if you make the drugs close to where the gas is.

Stuff you want to sell in Jita - building closer to Jita is better

Mining - do it in system with a refining station or be OK w/ throwing 25%-50% of the minerals right off the top.

This is all blinding flash of the obvious stuff. No real trade secrets involved. If you wanna play in wh and do indy, then you either set up in a wh and work out of there OR set up an indy base in k-space and do wh diving on the side. Again, wear sunglasses when read this.

As to DaReaper's "sigh, they REALLY need to fix that." NO they don't need to fix anything. You need to come to terms that eve isn't easy mode. You make choices with what is there. If it's not ideal for you.... SIGH, TOUGH MUFFINS. Some of you folks just crack me up. Get your head around this game. Inconvenient does not equal 'broken - CCP must fix'.

SMA not dropping loot after a patch - broken
POS refining isn't as good as in a station - inconvenient

Learn the difference, embrace it and sigh QUIT WHINING
notha atfast
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#9 - 2013-11-07 22:03:00 UTC
mining in a WH is a PITA unless you have a Rorq to compress it so you can move it to HS for refining. The refining arrays are total JUNK imho. We work it down this way.


Sleepers,
gas for polymer reactions,(Ninja some other WH's for the better gases also)

PI...either for Fuel or for the higher end ISK items.

relics and data sites for Reverse Engineering and then T3 Production. (Mini game still sucks)

If the static is closed we may mine, but the logistics SUCK. So we usually just mine ICE in alts in HS for the POS Fuel.
If we have a sub we may sneak around it and see any targets of Opportunity, same with LS or NS exits.

If you are building in the WH...then it should probably be something you are going to USE in the WH. Kind of our rule of thumb. Since any roaming gang that is ticked enough can erase your investment away in a few days.
I am looking forward to these Ghost sites. since they can add some more sites to do.
Robert Morningstar
Morningstar Excavations LTD
Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
#10 - 2013-11-07 22:30:46 UTC
if mining get a rorquel never refine in wh
if you want to build something then build t3 or pos structures these are the items you can source the materials from the wh
all your alts should be highly skilled in pi and you should set your own pocos
bring in a fuel bpo and research it building your own fuel in the wh means only hauling ice stuff this will save a lot of hauling
use large or xl ship assembely array for storage the other storage options are far inferior
react the gas if you have the skill again to reduce hauling
have 4 copies of each mineral bpo and compress before hauling
Imustbecomfused
Illicit Expo
#11 - 2013-11-08 17:59:10 UTC
Depending on how intricate you are, and what class wh you are wanting to live in:

closing the statics is a nice way to be safe now. You can completely isolate yourself in a wh now, and be notified when a new sig pops in, via the new mechanics with the system scanner. This means you have some level of safety if you have the scanner window up and are watching for new sigs.

what class wh are you considering to live in?

thsi is your main issue. The only real way to defend a wh or pos setup in a wh, is with a fleet... consideration of capitals for larger class wh.

Ive known whs to have very good income... very good. Rather it being a pain in the ass or not, well that may be another thing. Im not lazy and will go to great lengths to make the isky. you gotta climb the rope son, best grab a handful and get right in it.

Are you doing this solo?
Contact me in game if you have any questions for me.
Best of luck 0/
fly reckless!
JINGKO BELLS
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2013-11-10 00:13:33 UTC
Pi, pi, or pi. That's the best industry you can do in a wormhole. T3 production maybe a close second. Forget the rest.
Omir Kajil
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2013-11-11 08:32:58 UTC
So it's sounding like T3 production and PI are pretty popular, while the rest is pretty much pointless... Is that what I'm getting? Hmm, interesting. Thanks all for the thoughts. :)
Fluffi Flaffi
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2013-11-11 13:27:03 UTC
Imustbecomfused wrote:
closing the statics is a nice way to be safe now. You can completely isolate yourself in a wh now, and be notified when a new sig pops in, via the new mechanics with the system scanner. This means you have some level of safety if you have the scanner window up and are watching for new sigs.


Read this often, but don't really understand that. Except you are using a Macro, which is not allowed officially I have following problems with the Scanner.
It doesn't update often enough and sometimes not even once. When I change the wormhole system it often doesn't updates, instead I have to open System map to see the current anoms and signatures. Same in my home system.

So please explain how is it exactly working, that "you will be notified" about new signatures.
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#15 - 2013-11-11 17:26:54 UTC
7enn wrote:
Indy stuff you can do in HS ---> HS is best


Indy stuff you can't do in HS--->

WH (especially lower class) offer great protection from larger fish trying to swallow you up - they have to find you AND have the ambition to lump you up. It's not that hard to follow a careless player through k-space to their wh entrance, but if you're a careful player it's pretty tough to be found.

WH - if you're building T3 you don't have far to haul most of the materials.

Drugs - you save a lot of hauling time/effort if you make the drugs close to where the gas is.

Stuff you want to sell in Jita - building closer to Jita is better

Mining - do it in system with a refining station or be OK w/ throwing 25%-50% of the minerals right off the top.

This is all blinding flash of the obvious stuff. No real trade secrets involved. If you wanna play in wh and do indy, then you either set up in a wh and work out of there OR set up an indy base in k-space and do wh diving on the side. Again, wear sunglasses when read this.

As to DaReaper's "sigh, they REALLY need to fix that." NO they don't need to fix anything. You need to come to terms that eve isn't easy mode. You make choices with what is there. If it's not ideal for you.... SIGH, TOUGH MUFFINS. Some of you folks just crack me up. Get your head around this game. Inconvenient does not equal 'broken - CCP must fix'.

SMA not dropping loot after a patch - broken
POS refining isn't as good as in a station - inconvenient

Learn the difference, embrace it and sigh QUIT WHINING


My reply to this never got grabbed, so...

I'm not whining i'm stating that refining at a pos is broken. OFC its not suppose to be a win button, but seriously, spending 3 hours to refine, losing 25-50% of your ore, and only being able to refine one ore type is a joke. Yes I can crush and haul all my stuff to empire, refine, then bring it back in. But why should I? I'm not saying pos' should give 100% ore, but some of this stuff is stupid. I'd be happy with the ability to get 90 or so % of my ore, be able to refine multiple ore types at once for the 3 hours. OR lose 75% but be able to refine in 10 min or less. That's the problem, it takes too long to refine, and then on top of that, you lose most of your ore. Seriously a simple fix would make using a refiner at a pos much more covenant to use, and would prolly give a mild boost to wh/0.0 industry to boot. But no it just hinders it. Hell you have an advantage to use a lab at a pos, and a builder array at a pos, but then you get dinged big time using a refiner... that's just seems awefully designed to me

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
Rall Mekin
End-of-Line
#16 - 2013-11-11 23:14:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Rall Mekin
I have a max skilled miner, and two max skill building toons. I do not do industry in wormholes--currently, I do not do industry period (I don't have time--we spend most of our time hunting for kills). However, if you love industry and wormholes, its possible.

I'd suggest a C2/C2/High Sec or even C1/high sec wormhole, being aware of PVPers at all time. Build you a rorqual in there, crush your ore, and export it through the high sec for refining via Orca (t2 transports if you go with the C1). It'd be simple enough, and if you just have 1 jump to high sec and *KNOW* what you are doing, you should be fine.

You will have to "worry" about PVP at some point. My suggestion would be cuddle up to a bigger corp/alliance that wouldn't mind having an industrialist around to produce t2 items in hole for the PVPers (like us). However, they will most likely to pull you weight in PVP (again, like us). Also, hopefully you like PVP, because its a regular part of life here, and it can be helluvalot of fun.

As a note, you will STILL want a high sec POS for copying so your more expensive BPOs don't DIAF when--and its not if, its WHEN--your POS is sieged and everything burned down.
Himnos Altar
An Errant Venture
#17 - 2013-11-12 08:49:26 UTC
Rall Mekin wrote:


As a note, you will STILL want a high sec POS for copying so your more expensive BPOs don't DIAF when--and its not if, its WHEN--your POS is sieged and everything burned down.



And/or you/someone else forgets to make a fuel run and the FF shuts off.

:P
7enn
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2013-11-12 13:42:37 UTC
DaReaper wrote:
7enn wrote:
Indy stuff you can do in HS ---> HS is best


Indy stuff you can't do in HS--->

WH (especially lower class) offer great protection from larger fish trying to swallow you up - they have to find you AND have the ambition to lump you up. It's not that hard to follow a careless player through k-space to their wh entrance, but if you're a careful player it's pretty tough to be found.

WH - if you're building T3 you don't have far to haul most of the materials.

Drugs - you save a lot of hauling time/effort if you make the drugs close to where the gas is.

Stuff you want to sell in Jita - building closer to Jita is better

Mining - do it in system with a refining station or be OK w/ throwing 25%-50% of the minerals right off the top.

This is all blinding flash of the obvious stuff. No real trade secrets involved. If you wanna play in wh and do indy, then you either set up in a wh and work out of there OR set up an indy base in k-space and do wh diving on the side. Again, wear sunglasses when read this.

As to DaReaper's "sigh, they REALLY need to fix that." NO they don't need to fix anything. You need to come to terms that eve isn't easy mode. You make choices with what is there. If it's not ideal for you.... SIGH, TOUGH MUFFINS. Some of you folks just crack me up. Get your head around this game. Inconvenient does not equal 'broken - CCP must fix'.

SMA not dropping loot after a patch - broken
POS refining isn't as good as in a station - inconvenient

Learn the difference, embrace it and sigh QUIT WHINING


My reply to this never got grabbed, so...

I'm not whining i'm stating that refining at a pos is broken. OFC its not suppose to be a win button, but seriously, spending 3 hours to refine, losing 25-50% of your ore, and only being able to refine one ore type is a joke. Yes I can crush and haul all my stuff to empire, refine, then bring it back in. But why should I? I'm not saying pos' should give 100% ore, but some of this stuff is stupid. I'd be happy with the ability to get 90 or so % of my ore, be able to refine multiple ore types at once for the 3 hours. OR lose 75% but be able to refine in 10 min or less. That's the problem, it takes too long to refine, and then on top of that, you lose most of your ore. Seriously a simple fix would make using a refiner at a pos much more covenant to use, and would prolly give a mild boost to wh/0.0 industry to boot. But no it just hinders it. Hell you have an advantage to use a lab at a pos, and a builder array at a pos, but then you get dinged big time using a refiner... that's just seems awefully designed to me



You are whining and you just did it again. Please stop. Perfect refining is for k-space. Deal with it. If HS guys started whining for the use of dreads (for pve only of course) in HS and demanding escalations of some form at some site - i'm sure you would be the first to play the risk reward card. WHs make crazy sleeper isk, have no local and have mass limits that prevent hamfisted outfits from finding good fights. WH also are teh suxors for mining/refining. Deal with it.
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#19 - 2013-11-12 18:26:51 UTC
7enn wrote:
DaReaper wrote:
7enn wrote:
Indy stuff you can do in HS ---> HS is best


Indy stuff you can't do in HS--->

WH (especially lower class) offer great protection from larger fish trying to swallow you up - they have to find you AND have the ambition to lump you up. It's not that hard to follow a careless player through k-space to their wh entrance, but if you're a careful player it's pretty tough to be found.

WH - if you're building T3 you don't have far to haul most of the materials.

Drugs - you save a lot of hauling time/effort if you make the drugs close to where the gas is.

Stuff you want to sell in Jita - building closer to Jita is better

Mining - do it in system with a refining station or be OK w/ throwing 25%-50% of the minerals right off the top.

This is all blinding flash of the obvious stuff. No real trade secrets involved. If you wanna play in wh and do indy, then you either set up in a wh and work out of there OR set up an indy base in k-space and do wh diving on the side. Again, wear sunglasses when read this.

As to DaReaper's "sigh, they REALLY need to fix that." NO they don't need to fix anything. You need to come to terms that eve isn't easy mode. You make choices with what is there. If it's not ideal for you.... SIGH, TOUGH MUFFINS. Some of you folks just crack me up. Get your head around this game. Inconvenient does not equal 'broken - CCP must fix'.

SMA not dropping loot after a patch - broken
POS refining isn't as good as in a station - inconvenient

Learn the difference, embrace it and sigh QUIT WHINING


My reply to this never got grabbed, so...

I'm not whining i'm stating that refining at a pos is broken. OFC its not suppose to be a win button, but seriously, spending 3 hours to refine, losing 25-50% of your ore, and only being able to refine one ore type is a joke. Yes I can crush and haul all my stuff to empire, refine, then bring it back in. But why should I? I'm not saying pos' should give 100% ore, but some of this stuff is stupid. I'd be happy with the ability to get 90 or so % of my ore, be able to refine multiple ore types at once for the 3 hours. OR lose 75% but be able to refine in 10 min or less. That's the problem, it takes too long to refine, and then on top of that, you lose most of your ore. Seriously a simple fix would make using a refiner at a pos much more covenant to use, and would prolly give a mild boost to wh/0.0 industry to boot. But no it just hinders it. Hell you have an advantage to use a lab at a pos, and a builder array at a pos, but then you get dinged big time using a refiner... that's just seems awefully designed to me



You are whining and you just did it again. Please stop. Perfect refining is for k-space. Deal with it. If HS guys started whining for the use of dreads (for pve only of course) in HS and demanding escalations of some form at some site - i'm sure you would be the first to play the risk reward card. WHs make crazy sleeper isk, have no local and have mass limits that prevent hamfisted outfits from finding good fights. WH also are teh suxors for mining/refining. Deal with it.


And you are not getting that my gripe has zero to do with wh's and with the refining array in general, which is utterly useless.

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
Rall Mekin
End-of-Line
#20 - 2013-11-12 19:31:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Rall Mekin
Himnos Altar wrote:
Rall Mekin wrote:


As a note, you will STILL want a high sec POS for copying so your more expensive BPOs don't DIAF when--and its not if, its WHEN--your POS is sieged and everything burned down.



And/or you/someone else forgets to make a fuel run and the FF shuts off.

:P


If you are referring to the abandoned POSes in J154407 named "WH For Sale: Contact Rall Mekin", there's still fuel in some of them. We left everything there to the Bob and the Solar Winds because we had our C5 home and it was taking too long to sell. So, I just kicked out all the ships, offlined it, and left. Yes, this meant our killboard took a hit with squishy modules left, but, meh. I was hoping someone would just take me up on the offer to buy everything in hole, because all I need to do is bring an alt in, unanchor everything, and let someone else reanchor.

So far, we haven't managed to lose a POS or modules to someone not fueling it (yet). ;)
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