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The ISK train is over, Incursions coming to an end?

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Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#41 - 2013-11-07 17:55:13 UTC
Varkath Drakan wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
MikaPivav wrote:
the biggest sink ever invented in EVE is nullsec. It safer than high sec , more isk than incursions whatever people say. At least incursions are team work ..


There is a thread right now where the same people that constantly lie about how high sec makes more ISK / hour than null are bragging about how much ISK they are pulling in running null sec anom's.

Incursions do not make more per hour that null sec. They never have, not even in the era of the legion fleets.
Because what the null sec liars conveniently forget is the amount of prep/travel time needed to get fleets organized, versus the undock/ rat visible anom's solo instantly in null sec.

Null sec solo anom runners don't travel through 20 jumps, typically manned by suicide gankers, to get to an area where they will PvE.


But can you make 120m/hr with a 3 mil sp character for hours on end without worrying about someone coming and blowing you up in null unless it is deep sov space?

yes.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Varkath Drakan
Just Another Single Man Corp
#42 - 2013-11-07 18:07:46 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
Varkath Drakan wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
MikaPivav wrote:
the biggest sink ever invented in EVE is nullsec. It safer than high sec , more isk than incursions whatever people say. At least incursions are team work ..


There is a thread right now where the same people that constantly lie about how high sec makes more ISK / hour than null are bragging about how much ISK they are pulling in running null sec anom's.

Incursions do not make more per hour that null sec. They never have, not even in the era of the legion fleets.
Because what the null sec liars conveniently forget is the amount of prep/travel time needed to get fleets organized, versus the undock/ rat visible anom's solo instantly in null sec.

Null sec solo anom runners don't travel through 20 jumps, typically manned by suicide gankers, to get to an area where they will PvE.


But can you make 120m/hr with a 3 mil sp character for hours on end without worrying about someone coming and blowing you up in null unless it is deep sov space?

yes.



Please explain then
Varkath Drakan
Just Another Single Man Corp
#43 - 2013-11-07 18:13:04 UTC
Goldiiee wrote:

Sorry Jen you are taking my sarcasm a little to literally, when I first started doing VG's it was immediately apparent when we had a floater in fleet, HQ's are impossible to tell when there is a floater, but we try to filter them out by having members run a few dozen VG's before they get to HQ's.

But some methods are easy.
Find a guy not firing drop him and ban him.
On private coms tell fleet members to not fire on a target to see the new guys actual damage.
Call for fleet logs at the end of a fleet, and drop it into the EVE-HQ damage notification calculator.
But when in doubt, send him to fly with TVP.

Going to get trolled for that one...


Again, referring to just ISN in particular. A lot less people fly with ISN than the other communities, with this showing what many would consider a good reason.
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#44 - 2013-11-07 18:20:20 UTC
Varkath Drakan wrote:
Goldiiee wrote:

Sorry Jen you are taking my sarcasm a little to literally, when I first started doing VG's it was immediately apparent when we had a floater in fleet, HQ's are impossible to tell when there is a floater, but we try to filter them out by having members run a few dozen VG's before they get to HQ's.

But some methods are easy.
Find a guy not firing drop him and ban him.
On private coms tell fleet members to not fire on a target to see the new guys actual damage.
Call for fleet logs at the end of a fleet, and drop it into the EVE-HQ damage notification calculator.
But when in doubt, send him to fly with TVP.

Going to get trolled for that one...


Again, referring to just ISN in particular. A lot less people fly with ISN than the other communities, with this showing what many would consider a good reason.

Might be true for some, But I and those that fly with me know everyone is pulling their weight, minimizing floaters, and not asking half the group to do the work for the other half that is sitting at home watching porn (adult entertainment) while you earn them ISK seems like a fair trade.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#45 - 2013-11-07 18:51:15 UTC
Goldiiee wrote:
Varkath Drakan wrote:
Goldiiee wrote:

Sorry Jen you are taking my sarcasm a little to literally, when I first started doing VG's it was immediately apparent when we had a floater in fleet, HQ's are impossible to tell when there is a floater, but we try to filter them out by having members run a few dozen VG's before they get to HQ's.

But some methods are easy.
Find a guy not firing drop him and ban him.
On private coms tell fleet members to not fire on a target to see the new guys actual damage.
Call for fleet logs at the end of a fleet, and drop it into the EVE-HQ damage notification calculator.
But when in doubt, send him to fly with TVP.

Going to get trolled for that one...


Again, referring to just ISN in particular. A lot less people fly with ISN than the other communities, with this showing what many would consider a good reason.

Might be true for some, But I and those that fly with me know everyone is pulling their weight, minimizing floaters, and not asking half the group to do the work for the other half that is sitting at home watching **** (adult entertainment) while you earn them ISK seems like a fair trade.


Letting people run with meta 4 guns is a problem IMO. The DPS is the same as long as the skills are the same but since you can equip meta 4 guns with large X turret I, then your dps can be much lower than if you you had T2 because then large X turrent would need to be at V for a minimum of 20% more dps + at elast 1 rank of spec for 2% more. That adds up quickly. I never though people would use meta 4 guns on a pirate BS until I started running incursion. You even see people with those guns for weeks without them getting upgraded sometime.

Higher standards would effectively kill the 3 mill SP for 120 mill / hours isk sillyness.
MikaPivav
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2013-11-07 19:21:59 UTC  |  Edited by: MikaPivav
Problem is that nullbears forget they log undock make 100+ solo then dock. Watching local is nothing. People tha say its a big deal they have to be reminded that there is also intel. Didnt had any problem with ratting in my experience. Sure there were times i had to be docked but still...

Now something else since when solo play should be same with teamwork ? Make anomalies impossible to be soloed and require a fleet of 10+ then give them 200+ mil per hour. Watch nullbears cry over forums.

And end tnat risk thing. Only people that can say it are those that live on wormholes. There the pve actually involves skills and risk.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#47 - 2013-11-07 19:37:07 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
No one wants to force anyone to do anything. Now, some of us would like to be "less tied" to high sec. No one is forcing us to play there but 100 to 150 mil an hour flying in incursions fleets in increased safety (rather than PVEing in null with one eye glued to local/intel) is just too good to pass up. But CCP seems to have painted itself into a corner, can't nerf high sec because it's already a grind, can't buff null because the last null buff damn near broke the economy (really, 400 mil an hour titans lol).


You may disclaim your ability to correct problems, but it seems to me that you just nailed the biggest problem with balancing high sec, low sec and null sec income: namely the fact that the most powerful ships are barred from high sec. I imagine that it's quite hard to balance PVE for, say, Megathron pilots in each context without allowing people with access to supers the opportunity to ROFLstomp it for crazy ISK; likewise, you can go the other way and make people wonder why they're putting a super on the line in nullsec when they could be making the same or better ISK in a shiny subcap in high sec.

I agree strongly with you that I would not want to be involved in that balancing effort.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#48 - 2013-11-07 19:37:42 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Letting people run with meta 4 guns is a problem IMO. The DPS is the same as long as the skills are the same but since you can equip meta 4 guns with large X turret I, then your dps can be much lower than if you you had T2 because then large X turrent would need to be at V for a minimum of 20% more dps + at elast 1 rank of spec for 2% more. That adds up quickly. I never though people would use meta 4 guns on a pirate BS until I started running incursion. You even see people with those guns for weeks without them getting upgraded sometime.

Higher standards would effectively kill the 3 mill SP for 120 mill / hours isk sillyness.

There you go, make a suggestion in F&I for the upcoming Mach Nerf 'Only allow Meta 5 or above guns to be fitted' That'll cause a troll fest worthy of reading.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#49 - 2013-11-07 19:43:09 UTC
MikaPivav wrote:
Problem is that nullbears forget they log undock make 100+ solo then dock. Watching local is nothing. People tha say its a big deal they have to be reminded that there is also intel. Didnt had any problem with ratting in my experience. Sure there were times i had to be docked but still...


Thank you for clumsily making my point. Watching local isn't hard.

You know whats even easier than watching local? Not having to watch local at all because you are in high sec in an incursion fleet lol.

And "sure, there were times I had to be docked", guess what, that time NEVER comes in high sec unless you're war decced, which can't even happen if you're in an npc corp.

Seriously, did you give the subject any thought before posting?

Quote:

Now something else since when solo play should be same with teamwork ? Make anomalies impossible to be soloed and require a fleet of 10+ then give them 200+ mil per hour. Watch nullbears cry over forums.

And end tnat risk thing. Only people that can say it are those that live on wormholes. There the pve actually involves skills and risk.


You're not solo playing in a null upgraded system. Since according to incursion people we have to count travel times, wait times and the like, us "null bears" get to count all the things that go into making a null sec PVE home to lol.

Some Incursion types love to talk about "team work" i run incursions every week ,and the only people using actual team work are the people with roles (the aaa, the ddd, the droppers, the FCs). The majority of an incursion fleet is displaying exactly the same amount of "team work" as your average null sec blob ie "anchor on X, lock tagged targets, press F1, receive bacon". Hell, there have been times in incursion fleets that I thought of myself as the FCs drone lol.
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#50 - 2013-11-07 20:30:14 UTC
Incursions

VG fleet: 100 mil/hour when a fleet is up
HQ fleet: 175 mil/hour when a fleet is up

Cashing out CONCORD LP can bump those up by about 20-50 mil an hour.
Incursions take full attention, 10-30 other people to do be able to run them and constant moving of ships and gear across the galaxy every 3-4 days.

Nullsec

Mostly AFK ratting: 60 mil/hour non stop and solo
Actively ratting: 120 mil/hour non stop and solo

You always run the risk of being popped in nullsec but if you aren't terrible its safe for the most part. You have to deal with nullsec alliance politics, defense fleets and going on deployments to blow stuff up (a welcome and enjoyable break from the boredom that is ISK making imo).

So straight ISK/hour... you aren't going to beat incursion HQ fleets. Sustained income you aren't going to beat nullsec.

Each activity has its ups and downs and both are about the same in the end, the decision comes down to what you like doing more and what you can put up with.

Not today spaghetti.
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#51 - 2013-11-07 20:47:55 UTC
ROFLMAO,,, Good news. If that Event was to stop Incursions (I know it wasn't) we are going to have incursions forever. Unless you ask Razor to bring an end to it. LOL

And suddenly a thousand carebears cried out all at once and were just as suddenly silenced' Reply 'Must have been a gate camp ObiWan'

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#52 - 2013-11-07 20:54:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Sexy Cakes wrote:
Incursions

VG fleet: 100 mil/hour when a fleet is up
HQ fleet: 175 mil/hour when a fleet is up

Cashing out CONCORD LP can bump those up by about 20-50 mil an hour.
Incursions take full attention, 10-30 other people to do be able to run them and constant moving of ships and gear across the galaxy every 3-4 days.

Nullsec

Mostly AFK ratting: 60 mil/hour non stop and solo
Actively ratting: 120 mil/hour non stop and solo

You always run the risk of being popped in nullsec but if you aren't terrible its safe for the most part. You have to deal with nullsec alliance politics, defense fleets and going on deployments to blow stuff up (a welcome and enjoyable break from the boredom that is ISK making imo).

So straight ISK/hour... you aren't going to beat incursion HQ fleets. Sustained income you aren't going to beat nullsec.

Each activity has its ups and downs and both are about the same in the end, the decision comes down to what you like doing more and what you can put up with.


Some details missing. you say "where a fleet is up" for incursions, but don't mention "when forsaken hubs, forsaken rally points, havens and sanctums are available" for null sec. The good systems either get crowded or camped.

And "full attention" for incursions? When is that, who doesn't have sound on and their shield or armor alarms set to 95% in an incursion. and if you want to go akf in an incursion, many FCs will just say "broadcast for reps and hurry back. Want to go afk in null sec, you might get lucky running to bio and then coming back and you might now.

Also, incursion runners don't have to content with wormholes popping up out of no where, spewing raiders for which no intel channel will help lol.

I do both all the time (as well as other PVE) and while I'm glad EVE has some real group PVE content, high sec incursion farming are a bit insane. DIN and/or TVP popping the MOM early and making everyone wait a bit for more high sec incursions to spawn is actually a balancing factor, because otherwise it would be even more insane.

Low and null incursions are much less insane (mainly because they entail more player made risk)...which is why they are rarely done.
Eaphod
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#53 - 2013-11-07 21:06:02 UTC
Sexy Cakes wrote:
Incursions

VG fleet: 100 mil/hour when a fleet is up
HQ fleet: 175 mil/hour when a fleet is up

Cashing out CONCORD LP can bump those up by about 20-50 mil an hour.
Incursions take full attention, 10-30 other people to do be able to run them and constant moving of ships and gear across the galaxy every 3-4 days.


175 mil/hour is a pretty liberal estimate for HQ fleets, especially if you are not including CONCORD LP conversions. Each site pays out 31.5 million ISK, so that's 5 1/2 sites per hour. Granted, I've only earned about 3 billion total so far from Incursions, but 5 1/2 sites per hour is break neck pace (I've certainly never seen that, at least not with any consistency). Maybe if you get 4-5 TCRC's to spawn in a row and you're the only fleet in system.

My estimate for a consistent number would be more around 120 mil/hour before LP conversions. Which is still great ISK, especially including LP to the tune of ~9.8 mil/site if you do the leg work yourself.
MikaPivav
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2013-11-08 07:03:04 UTC

Lets say you have dominix farming non stop. Angel space doing a pair of domis i was getting 22-25 a tick per domi .

Lets do the math

Put diminishing return and put up 10 of those (Incursion fleets start with more) We are looking at 15m tick the least per domi thats 150 for 10 , 450m per hour farming in system that has 3 forshakens and 3 heavens and i believe you can max it more.
If you believe there arent people isoboxing that many then you live to a different eve. I seen Nightmares at drone lands , machariels at Angel and i believe there are people that doing it all over eve (Dont blame them. They can i am ok with that)

As for safety allow me to say that it has risk on high sec. Not many times i seen ships poping due to DPS and the fact that you DEPEND on logi. Because my friend you cant just tank ang get your income with a simple repper. Imagine now that on fleets if you have 1 DC .

Now for the economy , if CCP just stop incursions they will lose even more people playing the game. They already did the changes on incursions and economy messed up . If you trully want stable economy , lets just take the titan bridges, remove moon mining cartels , and enjoy the game how it will evolve. If you havent notice they will even **** it up pretty soon with the high sec PI changes once the powerblocks lay their hands on it
Ronin Gold Solbor
#55 - 2013-11-08 07:17:40 UTC
Well the aftermath is still being sorted out in GD, and the finger pointing will probably last for months (Well at least a week) but it looks like the Nul sec farming is safe, and the High sec farming has new incentive to up production of ISK so they can afford to go lemming into Nul.

All in all I think everyone is happy, Razor got an entertaining afternoon of shooting Wack-A-Mole style on a TiDi gate, Carebears got to confirm their fears of Nul sec, CCP got to test a some new code and live up to their end of the deal (Entertainment) and Incursion Runners got to make a few billion ISK in fleet while watching the events unfold on TwichTV (Till the cam-guy got killed).

All in all an average day of maintaining the Status Quo in Eve Online
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#56 - 2013-11-08 13:59:38 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
when a neutral comes in


If you can't deal with 1 neutral ............
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#57 - 2013-11-08 14:17:29 UTC
Kitty Bear wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
when a neutral comes in


If you can't deal with 1 neutral ............










Exactly where did i say i can't deal with 1 neutral?
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#58 - 2013-11-08 16:00:09 UTC
Jenn, thank you for anouncing to all the lurking hisec gankers that you do not watch local in hisec.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#59 - 2013-11-08 16:34:40 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
Jenn, thank you for anouncing to all the lurking hisec gankers that you do not watch local in hisec.


If you want to gank my scimitar or basilisk, go right ahead. They are really cheap.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#60 - 2013-11-08 19:59:11 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Varkath Drakan wrote:



I don't necessarily think that null sec should be insanely better reward rise. High sec and null sec are two different play styles, which players should be allowed to enjoy separately, not be forced to move into null to make decent isk because "high sec is to easy, blah blah blah." As stated before, most null sec players (probably all) have a high sec alt or go to high sec every so often to enjoy the ease of it. There are always the outliers, the people who don't fall into that but most people do.


Besides this, more rewards to "force" people to move has never worked, just the opposite. Low sec is fully of tasty rewards and still mostly empty. Wormholes have the best rewards in the game and the lowest share of population.

No one wants to force anyone to do anything. Now, some of us would like to be "less tied" to high sec. No one is forcing us to play there but 100 to 150 mil an hour flying in incursions fleets in increased safety (rather than PVEing in null with one eye glued to local/intel) is just too good to pass up. But CCP seems to have painted itself into a corner, can't nerf high sec because it's already a grind, can't buff null because the last null buff damn near broke the economy (really, 400 mil an hour titans lol).

I'm not one of those players who thinks he knows what professional game makers should do, just pointing out what I see as an imbalance. Damn if I would know how to correct it.


Not to mention wspace safest space.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it