These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

New dev blog: I don‘t always miss, but when I do...I do it with style.

First post
Author
Malcom Dax
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#61 - 2011-11-18 17:37:58 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
I don't care about the ratio of hit/miss. I'm not going to stare at someone for a few minutes, watching him get shot at, to determine that approximately 60% of those shots actually mised. I want to see that the last three shots from the enemy battleship landed on the friendly interceptor, and he will most likely need repairs NOW.


Would you actually watch for RR targets this way? I can't see this being of much use to you in a large fight, since there would be too many targets to watch and you can use the watch list to see actual damage, which is more informative than hits anyway. At best you would be able to watch one additional person (maybe more if you have good camera skills) but to me this is such an edge case and of such little utility that I'd prefer to see simulated hits/misses.

.

Mjana
Switzerland EVE Corp.
#62 - 2011-11-18 17:40:59 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:
Then finally ever considered giving a bending line for the autocannons? "Firing Arcs" faster the target higher the bend? not sure how much more backend that would require though. You can probably do a modification of this for hybrid/arty misses as well.(where shot spin simply destabilized the round and it arcs off randomly after missing)

I don't see any physical reason, why a completely passive projectile (without any propulsion devices to adjust their trajectory) should have a bent flight path after launched from a cannon.

Did you watch "Wanted" one too many times? Big smile Even tough it would surely look funny if turrets would do that "fling" move, it still wouldn't work (as prooved by Mythbusters).
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#63 - 2011-11-18 17:42:45 UTC
CCP Choloepus wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Outstanding work!

Please forgive this suggestion if it is not practical, but a reasonable solution to showing other ships hit/miss effects:

Ships that are in your watch list currently send accurate damage information, as well as any ships you have targetted (at least I presume so since we have a guage showing their curent damage level). If this information is already being passed, would it be possible for at least these ships (which are points of interest, and often closest to you) to show the hit/miss effects?

If so, that would probably take care of most of the ships you'd care to visually see hit/misses. Accurate info, points of interest around you covered, but without having to try and fake it for large numbers of ships.

As far as showing the hit/miss effects for ships you have your camera focused on... would be nice, and great you are considering it, but I would think it would be the least practical solution. However, if it is possible this would be great too.

Repectfully submitted, although you've probably already considered this.


No apologies for suggestions! If they've been raised before, it's at worst an extra vote for the feature, and more frequently covers some new ground as well. Smile

As it happens, this has come up before and it sounds like a solid idea to me. Things on your watch list might not be handled in exactly the same way as your targets and ship, but they do get at least some additional information compared to everything else on grid so we'll definitely be checking this out.


Excellent! Fingers crossed.

I just didn't want to either presume, or sound like I presume, to know exactly how your code base works like so many others have done. It bugs me when people do that. (especially when, more often that not, they have no idea). Smile

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

CCP Choloepus
C C P
C C P Alliance
#64 - 2011-11-18 17:44:40 UTC
Jaldard wrote:
Quote:
We could send information about every shot to everyone in a fleet battle, but this would be a huge increase to server load and communication bandwidth to the point where Team Gridlock would (quite rightly) fire me into the sun for even suggesting it.
I don't think so, of course it will have an (insignificant) impact on the bandwidth, but not on the server load, at least not in a negative way.
It seems obvious that it is more effective for the server to send all the data rather than computing (for each player) a list of what needs to be sent.
Of course I am not aware of the oddities that might exist in the server code, so please correct me if I'm wrong.


Now, I am not a server guy, but it adds up rather more quickly than you might expect.

Currently, after each damage calculation the server sends the relevant information to two parties, the attacker and the victim. At some point, shield/armour/hull values will also be sent to anyone targeting or watching the victim, but that's not necessarily synchronous and can be tacked on to other information once a tick.

So if you've got 100 ships all shooting at one other ship indiscriminately, you're sending out 100 hit/miss packets to the aggressors and 100 to the poor gankee.

Under the new regime, you'd be sending out 100 hit/miss packets to each aggressor, for a total of ten thousand, plus the 100 to the gankee. That kind of O(n^2) scaling is less than good.

I await CCP Masterplan's e-mail explaining how much black magic I've swept under the rug, but yeah. From a vertex-herder's perspective, that's why it's bad.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#65 - 2011-11-18 17:49:05 UTC
Mjana wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:
Then finally ever considered giving a bending line for the autocannons? "Firing Arcs" faster the target higher the bend? not sure how much more backend that would require though. You can probably do a modification of this for hybrid/arty misses as well.(where shot spin simply destabilized the round and it arcs off randomly after missing)

I don't see any physical reason, why a completely passive projectile (without any propulsion devices to adjust their trajectory) should have a bent flight path after launched from a cannon.

Did you watch "Wanted" one too many times? Big smile Even tough it would surely look funny if turrets would do that "fling" move, it still wouldn't work (as prooved by Mythbusters).


The individual shots themselves don't arc, but the burst "appears" to arc across the sky as the gun is tracking the target.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Esrevid Nekkeg
Justified and Ancient
#66 - 2011-11-18 17:50:28 UTC
It looks lovely on SiSi! Reminds me of Clear Skies 3 (time stamp 59:00)

Here I used to have a sig of our old Camper in space. Now it is disregarded as being the wrong format. Looking out the window I see one thing: Nothing wrong with the format of our Camper! Silly CCP......

Aerieth
The Sleeper Sleuths
#67 - 2011-11-18 17:59:10 UTC
/begin typical eve player unnessecary rage

More turret love I see. So my missiles are OK coming out of NO WHERE! That's not immersion breaking at all!

Quote:

Missiles aren't affected. The mechanics of (and code for) missile combat is very much a different kettle of squamous betentacled beasties.


Maybe that's a hint you should fix it?

/end

At least it's something ... I'll never see it. Just like I have yet to see the new turrets but yay for everyone else.
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2011-11-18 18:05:57 UTC
CCP Choloepus wrote:

Under the new regime, you'd be sending out 100 hit/miss packets to each aggressor, for a total of ten thousand, plus the 100 to the gankee. That kind of O(n^2) scaling is less than good.


Yeah, that kind of plans tend to cause Those That Watch The Server Performance look for places where they could dump the body of the programmer suggesting it... well that, and a murderous look. Neither is good. Roll

Hence I can fully understand not doing it like that. At least not for big fights. Sorry for earlier assuming that the client already did it like that - I made the assumption based on the experience as to how the server keels over and dies when enough people start settling their territorial disputes on a single grid. With lazors and heavy artillery and stuff. I guess the server is then just choking due to the movement related information that has to be transmitted to everyone about everyone on the same grid...

One option could be to do it like that for up to N players on grid and when N gets too big, it falls back to the old system, with perhaps some special cases to help the situation - stuff like transmit info about the ship you are Looking At, transmit info about ships in your watch list (up to N ships if it becomes a perf problem) etc...

"Impossible (and O(n^2) scaling) problems are just problems that need creative solutions that are usually based on cheating and misdirection." Big smile

But all that probably needs a lot more experimenting and profiling so you do not accidentally the whole server performance in fleet fights. We don't want that. Ever. Must have 1000 man fleet fights that are playable. Much more important than any shiny miss effects.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#69 - 2011-11-18 18:07:21 UTC
Aerieth wrote:
/begin typical eve player unnessecary rage

More turret love I see. So my missiles are OK coming out of NO WHERE! That's not immersion breaking at all!

Quote:

Missiles aren't affected. The mechanics of (and code for) missile combat is very much a different kettle of squamous betentacled beasties.


Maybe that's a hint you should fix it?

/end

At least it's something ... I'll never see it. Just like I have yet to see the new turrets but yay for everyone else.


Previous dev blogs have already discussed this. Reworking the missile and missile launcher mechanics are planned already (indeed, with V3 work being done it's pretty safe to assume that some of the work is already being done). It's a matter of completely reworking most everything about how they are currently handled, including the launching points themselves.

When you consider that missiles are already the most lag inducing weapon system in the game it's little wonder that it's going to be a large and time consuming operation.

I will be much happier when the work is done, so you aren't alone in that, but rest assured the issue isn't being ignored.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Pierced Brosmen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2011-11-18 18:18:46 UTC
Top of the head suggestion...

In a fight with several involved parties, could the server make a quick estimate at a set interval (cycle) for the hit/miss percentages and send that to the involved parties (plus spectators as long as that wouldn't cause too much extra traffic) and for the next interval the client will use that information to simulate hits and misses?

This would mean that all simulations will be one cycle behind, but should still give an idea of overall accuracy in the fight and will not add the load of telling everyone about every hit/miss relating to everyone else then you and your target.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#71 - 2011-11-18 18:26:13 UTC
Mjana wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:
Then finally ever considered giving a bending line for the autocannons? "Firing Arcs" faster the target higher the bend? not sure how much more backend that would require though. You can probably do a modification of this for hybrid/arty misses as well.(where shot spin simply destabilized the round and it arcs off randomly after missing)

I don't see any physical reason, why a completely passive projectile (without any propulsion devices to adjust their trajectory) should have a bent flight path after launched from a cannon.

Did you watch "Wanted" one too many times? Big smile Even tough it would surely look funny if turrets would do that "fling" move, it still wouldn't work (as prooved by Mythbusters).


Phsyics apply quite alot over a large interstellar distance, there is alot of gravitional forces ships exert along with the solar system its self all of these are effecthing shot projetories eventually.

Either way the shot arcs for auto cannons are not a phsyics thing is an accuracy thing you're leading your target so your entire volley winds up in the target instead of the first few bullets as the rest of the stream flys by.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

Jaldard
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#72 - 2011-11-18 18:28:29 UTC
CCP Choloepus wrote:
Under the new regime, you'd be sending out 100 hit/miss packets to each aggressor, for a total of ten thousand, plus the 100 to the gankee. That kind of O(n^2) scaling is less than good.
That's ~1.2ko/s assuming all the ships have a 1s RoF.
Come on ! TQ can tank that !
Sable Moran
Moran Light Industries
#73 - 2011-11-18 18:46:49 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:
Phsyics apply quite alot over a large interstellar distance, there is alot of gravitional forces ships exert along with the solar system its self all of these are effecthing shot projetories eventually.


Fights in eve apply within ranges under 250 km, most of the time way under that. I would hardly call that 'large interstellar distance'.

Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene V - Moon 4 - Duvolle Labs Factory. Hybrid charges, Projectile ammo, Missiles, Drones, Ships, Need'em? We have'em, at affordable prices. Pop in at our Ammo Shop in sunny Alentene.

Havak Kouvo
Doomheim
#74 - 2011-11-18 18:51:08 UTC
I think this should be delayed until it has been refined a bit more. There seem to be a few too many things that don't work about it to make it into the expansion.
Kari Trace
#75 - 2011-11-18 19:09:38 UTC
*ekk* :D

My pants...


I now have to change them....


+1 to the awesome counter for Crucible.

I like making things explode.

Kari Trace

Meditril
Minmatar Secret Service
Ushra'Khan
#76 - 2011-11-18 19:23:51 UTC
Running lvl 3 missions in assault frigates will make much more fun when you see all the misses etc.
Cool improvement!
StukaBee
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#77 - 2011-11-18 20:20:03 UTC
CCP Choloepus wrote:
[Thanks!

Something which has been suggested on these fora and which I really liked the sound of: as the quality of the shot increases (grouped weapons assumed), you have more hits arrive at the same point on the model. So a wrecking shot would look like current TQ, but a standard hit would hit different points on the ship, and light/barely hits would partially miss the target.

The last is currently in testing and art approval by the way, it may not arrive with Crucible but I'll try to get it live as soon as possible.


Oh wow, if you can get visuals varying according to the type of hit, could this be taken further to give differing effects according to whether the shot is hitting shields, armour or structure?

For example, if I'm shooting a target and his shields are still intact the shots would cause shield flare and energy discharge, as a I took his shields down and started hitting his armour that would change to sparks and impacts on the armour plates, and once I was through to structure the shooting would be penetrating the ship itself and causing internal fires and explosions.
Aineko Macx
#78 - 2011-11-18 20:22:00 UTC
Keep going like that, and we'll actually get the battle recorder & machinima at some point Cool
CCP Choloepus
C C P
C C P Alliance
#79 - 2011-11-18 20:34:00 UTC
StukaBee wrote:
Oh wow, if you can get visuals varying according to the type of hit, could this be taken further to give differing effects according to whether the shot is hitting shields, armour or structure?

For example, if I'm shooting a target and his shields are still intact the shots would cause shield flare and energy discharge, as a I took his shields down and started hitting his armour that would change to sparks and impacts on the armour plates, and once I was through to structure the shooting would be penetrating the ship itself and causing internal fires and explosions.


Yup! This involves an artist making some nice impact effects, but otherwise shouldn't be too hard. We've also been discussing having a few more effects for when a shot punches through the last of your shield/armour and starts chewing away at the next layer of tank. This would need a bit of hysteresis built in to avoid it looking silly under reps.

All optional of course, as this kind of stuff would definitely add a small performance hit unless we can claw some frame time back elsewhere.

Unfortunately, it's a lot easier to think up pretty new things to do with this feature than it is to get everything done. Nevertheless it's much better to have a full backlog than the alternative!
Faith Sunstrider
#80 - 2011-11-18 20:39:28 UTC
Good job CCP.
Now.. we need some ship crew (maybe in the next expansion) and you can get back to work on dust and wod for one more year. :D

(but we'll need half of CCP working on bugs that *maybe will* appear)