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Help my understanding. Tengu v CNR
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Zindy Indy
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2013-11-06 13:49:23 UTC
So I am going to move down to null sec space and when not pvp'ing I am going to do some ratting. Now I have two choices and in my head I need to understand something.

My CNR can do around 1000 dps with TII cruise and has a pretty decent tank. I'm at work so can't link the fit.
If I fit a Tengu it can do around 550 dps with a very decent tank. Cap stable and 600m/s.

Now I have been reading a lot and people use a tengu, but in my mind I don't get why as the dps is half. Now I am sure it's something to do with applied dps or target size, but could someone explain it for me? Why is the tengu a good ratting ship and which combat sites are best suited for a tengu in angel space? I have level IV skills in all support missiles skills and level IV in cruise and heavy missiles specialisation.

Also could someone link a known tengu fit vs angel for me to check out? I have around 1.5 bil budget.

Thanks in advance.
Nimrod vanHall
Van Mij Belastingvrij
#2 - 2013-11-06 13:53:20 UTC
keep your CNR in high sec till your used to lining in nulsec.

start with a normal raven to get the hang of nulsec alternatively uses a T2 fit tengu. dont pimp it ot at first. your not used to the enviroment intell chanels, etc, you will lose your first raiing ship to pvp. start cheap :D
Zindy Indy
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2013-11-06 13:57:13 UTC
Sorry. I should have pointed out I have lived in null before and done ratting in null, with a cheap ship. Now I understand the environment I want to move up to the best ships I can fly.

I have already learned the hard way of ratting in null, and will not make the same mistakes again :)
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#4 - 2013-11-06 13:57:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Caitlyn Tufy
Three things:

1. Tengu can get close to 1k dps in HAM fit.
2. CNR is a faction ship = pricey = gank bait. It can be effective, but you should really know your surroundings before you commit to a ship like that.
3. Dominix can do better in an ordinary T2 fit and even if you lose it, the isk loss will be tiny compared to either the Tengu or the CNR.

Also, depending on the area of space you'll be living in, consider T3 BC.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#5 - 2013-11-06 19:00:07 UTC
-HAM tengu is FANTASTIC against angels, you don't even need to put nice mods on it.
-In null, agility = life
-CNR is more expensive and requires more expensive fittings
-battleships tend to be stuck doing anomalies in ratting systems, while the tengu can easily go 9 jumps out and run a combat plex
-getting a CNR out to nullsec and someday back again is much more expensive/PITA.
-CNR probably slightly out-dpses a ham tengu, but the tengu tanks better, and has much better application, although this might be trivial depending on the anom.

in any case, get better missile support skills. Also, your tengu should be getting closer to 650 dps or higher with HML scourge furies. Having a battleship in null is fine (if you're not new to null). I'm not saying you shouldn't do it, but just understand that a tengu is an incredibly useful and versatile ship, and is 90% as good at doing the few things the battleship can do.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Zoltan Lazar
#6 - 2013-11-07 01:27:38 UTC
HAM >>>>> HML. You get 900 DPS in a T2 fit hamgu. You get 650 in a HML fit. You get 600 with javelin HAMs, to nearly HML range, with immensely better damage application than HMLs. There's no need to fit HMLs when javelins do the range anyways.

Tengu is going to be even better post-rubicon, because it takes forever for a battleship to warp.
Zindy Indy
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2013-11-07 22:12:29 UTC
So I have finally had some time to run the numbers in EFT and this is what I come up with, let me know what you think.

[Tengu, Angel Anoms]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Kinetic Deflection Field II
Explosive Deflection Field II
Domination 10MN Afterburner
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Small Shield Booster II

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Nova Javelin Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Nova Javelin Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Nova Javelin Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Nova Javelin Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Nova Javelin Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Nova Javelin Heavy Assault Missile

Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Medium Warhead Flare Catalyst I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I

Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir

With this setup I get 429dps, which from what people have been saying isn't the greatest. If I use Rage I get 644dps.

I'm not worried about the tank as I will swap out some of the T2 mods for Deadspace where best but with that dps would it just be best for me to stick to something like a Raven or do you think with 644 dps and 21km range I would be able to clear Forsaken Hubs with 'speed'?

Even with setting All V's in EFT I only get 503 dps with Javelin HAM's so I don't know where you're geting the 600 dps from?
Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
#8 - 2013-11-08 02:41:24 UTC
The thing about a CNR and Tengu are, first off you should be able to get 800 to 900DPS from a Tengu easy. Also the Tengu can active tank MUCH better then a CNR, and because the Tengus sig radius is so much smaller, you won't always be hit, and when you are it won't hurt as much. The other thing is in null sec, someone can pop in to kill you at anytime, being able to align faster and warp out faster helps out a lot in not getting killed.

All in all I think a Tengu is a much better PvE ship all around (better PvP too). If you do choose to use a CNR, work up to use a Golem. The Golem is better than a CNR in everyway, but takes a lot more skills to use .

Only 2 ships I PvE in are an active Tengu, and a full passive Rattlesnake. I get 800 to 900 DPS from the Tengu and 900 plus from my RS. If you do go with a Tengu make sure you get ALL subsystems to L5, have great shield, and missile skills. Whatever you pick, have fun and be watchful.
Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
#9 - 2013-11-08 02:44:57 UTC
High -
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II

Med -
Medium Shield Booster II
Shield Boost Ampifier II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Extender II or Target Painter II
10mn Afterburner II

Low -
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control Unit II
Ballistic Control Unit II
Balistic Control Unit II
Ballistic Control Unit II

Rigs-
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst
Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I

Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Tengu Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst

It has only 5 launchers, but still gets over 700 to 800DPS with good skills, is fully stable and if you have your Sensor Compensation up you get like 42J, it's VERY hard to be jammed. You could change the HAMs for HLMs but you will loose a good deal of DPS. You can change a extender rig out to a velocity rig for more range also. And if you want you could always pimp it out with faction, deadspace, officer and T2 rigs, get a full set of crystal implants and 6% missile implants and it's unstoppable, but not cheap, and if you loose it ,well it would be VERY bad. Big thing is to have great missile skills, great shield skills and ALL subsystems to L5. against
Ludaman
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2013-11-08 04:14:02 UTC
Zindy Indy wrote:
So I have finally had some time to run the numbers in EFT and this is what I come up with, let me know what you think.

[Tengu, Angel Anoms]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Kinetic Deflection Field II
Explosive Deflection Field II
Domination 10MN Afterburner
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Small Shield Booster II

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Nova Javelin Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Nova Javelin Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Nova Javelin Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Nova Javelin Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Nova Javelin Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Nova Javelin Heavy Assault Missile

Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Medium Warhead Flare Catalyst I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I

Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir

With this setup I get 429dps, which from what people have been saying isn't the greatest. If I use Rage I get 644dps.

I'm not worried about the tank as I will swap out some of the T2 mods for Deadspace where best but with that dps would it just be best for me to stick to something like a Raven or do you think with 644 dps and 21km range I would be able to clear Forsaken Hubs with 'speed'?

Even with setting All V's in EFT I only get 503 dps with Javelin HAM's so I don't know where you're geting the 600 dps from?




You need to use Scourge missles.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#11 - 2013-11-08 06:41:44 UTC
special applications aside, you should never use a tengu with 5 launchers for PVE.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Cyrus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#12 - 2013-11-08 13:06:00 UTC
Tengu is a great ship for a cruiser hull. Takes real good advantage of the pith A-type small or medium shield boosters, has versatility, and does not feel like a sitting duck when you need to move and can be fit to be very effective with an interdiction nullifier still installed.

The CNR is still the better ship to get the job done. It just cost more isk for a good deadspace fit and you often don't wanna take it through a long series of jumps through null sec.
Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
#13 - 2013-11-08 20:00:14 UTC
IF you plan to do Sancs, Havens, 6 of 10s and up then a Tengu with 5 launchers, m3ed booster and fully stable will work MUCH better then a Tengu with 6 launchers and a small rep. You come solo most any sites. Just watch out for neuting towers and such, then you are screwed.

If you want a great PvE ship, get a Rattlesnake, you can passive solo Sancs, Havens, and most 6 of 10s and up, and do over 800DPS. You can rep anywhere from 200 per sec, to over 600 per sec. I have a Rattlesnake made to solo officer spawns, Sancs, Havens, and 6 of 10 and up and I can solo them all.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2013-11-10 11:04:29 UTC
You can solo sancs and havens in a basic T2 domi......or Ishtar for that matter.
Zindy Indy
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2013-11-18 12:43:42 UTC
After playing around with that fit I now have a 924 dps tengu with 22km range and cap stable at 44%. This is using two missile implants and the cap impants but as it's only planning to do ratting I don't mind spending that bit extra money.

Last night I tested it and doing one Angel Forsaken Hub I got a 16mil tick which I am happy with, plus I got a 9/10 out of it aswell.

With the small shield boost I haven't dropped below 90% shield apart from when I got webbed.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2013-11-18 13:44:59 UTC
Zindy Indy wrote:
After playing around with that fit I now have a 924 dps tengu with 22km range and cap stable at 44%. This is using two missile implants and the cap impants but as it's only planning to do ratting I don't mind spending that bit extra money.

Last night I tested it and doing one Angel Forsaken Hub I got a 16mil tick which I am happy with, plus I got a 9/10 out of it aswell.

With the small shield boost I haven't dropped below 90% shield apart from when I got webbed.


I pull that with an ishtar that costs a whopping 250mil.

......no implants
Zindy Indy
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2013-11-18 13:52:21 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Zindy Indy wrote:
After playing around with that fit I now have a 924 dps tengu with 22km range and cap stable at 44%. This is using two missile implants and the cap impants but as it's only planning to do ratting I don't mind spending that bit extra money.

Last night I tested it and doing one Angel Forsaken Hub I got a 16mil tick which I am happy with, plus I got a 9/10 out of it aswell.

With the small shield boost I haven't dropped below 90% shield apart from when I got webbed.


I pull that with an ishtar that costs a whopping 250mil.

......no implants


Well done. I wasn't looking for a ship fit that I couldn't fly. Otherwise the title of the thread would be, what ship should I use in angel space....