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Siphon unit now useless

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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#41 - 2013-11-05 04:09:24 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
… the issue is we've just got a lot more pointless space-work that generates no content for anyone else. we survey towers every few hours, loot and blap siphons, log off


You are limiting your thinking by assuming everyone is going to use the siphons by deploying them and leaving them be.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
Shadow Cartel
#42 - 2013-11-05 05:36:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Zloco Crendraven
Mara Rinn wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
… the issue is we've just got a lot more pointless space-work that generates no content for anyone else. we survey towers every few hours, loot and blap siphons, log off


You are limiting your thinking by assuming everyone is going to use the siphons by deploying them and leaving them be.


If you will need more hours than a normal gaming session to repay your siphon unit than people will be leaving them around POSes in hope that when they return tomorrow there is something.

If you can repay it in some 2-3 hours than you will come back pick up those 2-3 mils, leave it there and come back every few hours to get the reward. Than you go to sleep leave the siphon knowing that it will prolly be destroyed or stolen from.

In one gaming session a couple of mills aint much. But when you are doing for the corp while roaming that can be few couple of hundreds (10 members X 10 siphons) when you seed an entire region. Couple of hundred millions daily for a lowsec corp is huge money (you know we don't own those fancy moons).

There was a plan ongoing to seed 4-5 lowsec regions and force moon holders to drop them. But now nothing will happen because i repeat, the siphons are useless in this state. Becasue now instead of earning couple of hundreds of millions we could loose a billion daily (10 members x 10 siphons x 10+millions) That is a budget we can't sustain for a long period.

Goons can sustain that kind of loss to blockade (aka Troll, grief) smaller entities. That is why they push for higher entry barrier so they keep the griefing mechanic (which could be a profit one, much larger content provider) only for themselves.
Higher entry barrier, simple economics that big corporations use to keep as bigger piece of market as possible.

Because if CCP is going to follow this logic even with the larger ones, it is a dead system from the start. Larger ones won't be taken even in consideration.

BALEX, bringing piracy on a whole new level.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#43 - 2013-11-05 05:41:17 UTC
Zloco Crendraven wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
… the issue is we've just got a lot more pointless space-work that generates no content for anyone else. we survey towers every few hours, loot and blap siphons, log off


You are limiting your thinking by assuming everyone is going to use the siphons by deploying them and leaving them be.


If you will need more hours than a normal gaming session to repay your siphon unit than people will be leaving them around POSes in hope that when they return tomorrow there is something.


Why?

Siphons add an exciting new dimension to the sport of AFK cloaking.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Chiliwomper
Star Wind Enterprises
#44 - 2013-11-05 05:47:05 UTC
Everyone realizes that you can deploy multiple Siphon units right? and they only take up 20m3 of cargo space. So get yourself a Cloakly Hauler and set up a few systems then make your way back through later collecting your goo. some of your units might have been destroyed or taken from. and some may be full of nice things.
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
Shadow Cartel
#45 - 2013-11-05 06:00:16 UTC
Chiliwomper wrote:
Everyone realizes that you can deploy multiple Siphon units right? and they only take up 20m3 of cargo space. So get yourself a Cloakly Hauler and set up a few systems then make your way back through later collecting your goo. some of your units might have been destroyed or taken from. and some may be full of nice things.


That is a business for solo or very small entities. And only very poor players, new players will see a profit in that. I dunno what is the cap 5 or 10 atm. If u seed 10 you will need to earn around 100 million just to repay them. If you somehow manage to anchor them on the best moons you will need 5 hours to not be shot or stolen from to only repay them and than again 5 more hours to gain 100mil. But they will cost more than 10 mills for sure.

If they were 2 mills it could be a potential profit for solo new players and for more organised groups. Also it could be a nice tool to hurt bigger entities or at least making them log much, much more often. Some of us (many of us) want it to play a more significant role than the "Big boys grief tool".

BALEX, bringing piracy on a whole new level.
Axhind
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#46 - 2013-11-05 07:27:41 UTC
Zloco Crendraven wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
… the issue is we've just got a lot more pointless space-work that generates no content for anyone else. we survey towers every few hours, loot and blap siphons, log off


You are limiting your thinking by assuming everyone is going to use the siphons by deploying them and leaving them be.


If you will need more hours than a normal gaming session to repay your siphon unit than people will be leaving them around POSes in hope that when they return tomorrow there is something.

If you can repay it in some 2-3 hours than you will come back pick up those 2-3 mils, leave it there and come back every few hours to get the reward. Than you go to sleep leave the siphon knowing that it will prolly be destroyed or stolen from.

In one gaming session a couple of mills aint much. But when you are doing for the corp while roaming that can be few couple of hundreds (10 members X 10 siphons) when you seed an entire region. Couple of hundred millions daily for a lowsec corp is huge money (you know we don't own those fancy moons).

There was a plan ongoing to seed 4-5 lowsec regions and force moon holders to drop them. But now nothing will happen because i repeat, the siphons are useless in this state. Becasue now instead of earning couple of hundreds of millions we could loose a billion daily (10 members x 10 siphons x 10+millions) That is a budget we can't sustain for a long period.

Goons can sustain that kind of loss to blockade (aka Troll, grief) smaller entities. That is why they push for higher entry barrier so they keep the griefing mechanic (which could be a profit one, much larger content provider) only for themselves.
Higher entry barrier, simple economics that big corporations use to keep as bigger piece of market as possible.

Because if CCP is going to follow this logic even with the larger ones, it is a dead system from the start. Larger ones won't be taken even in consideration.



Maybe you elite PvPers can take a break from hiding behind cloaks and go run an L4? If each of your 10 members does one GE or AE then each can afford 4 siphons. If you have issues making 10 mil here and there than you seriously need to up your game.

On the other hand I see how you want a free isk printing machine but with the moon nerf that is renters and sadly your are obviously not able to play with the big boys in 0.0.
While on it the reason you can't play with the big boys is exactly why you will not be able to benefit from siphons. You can't coordinate properly.
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#47 - 2013-11-05 08:45:10 UTC
Axhind wrote:
Maybe you elite PvPers can take a break from hiding behind cloaks and go run an L4? If each of your 10 members does one GE or AE then each can afford 4 siphons. If you have issues making 10 mil here and there than you seriously need to up your game.

But that requires :effort:, not just dropping a structure from a covops and expecting the same income as alliances throwing hundreds of ships at each other to control valuable moons.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2013-11-05 10:05:55 UTC
Most moons are NOT visited within 5-6 hours. In fact the effective usage will be mostly on high end moons far far away from the main population of the said alliances.

BTW, how may Hp those things have ?

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Lipbite
Express Hauler
#49 - 2013-11-05 10:49:36 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
BTW, how may Hp those things have ?

70k.

So - is there anyone who are going to use these things for profit? If there will be any profit at all...
xttz
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#50 - 2013-11-05 11:29:21 UTC
Current siphon stats on sisi (to avoid anymore confusion):

80k EHP (10k shield, 10k armour, 60k structure)
Volume 35m­­³
Capacity 900m³ (16.6 hours worth of raw material)
Steals 60 units of raw material, 25 units processed material
Waste factor 10%, meaning 54 units of raw material, 22 units processed material per hour
Sig radius 100m

Requires Anchoring II to use (not trainable on trial accounts)
Base manufacturing time of 3h20m
Skills to build:

  • Electronic Engineering IV
  • Graviton Physics IV
  • Industry I

Materials:

  • Isogen [6545]
  • Megacyte [189]
  • Mexallon [20747]
  • Nocxium [1900]
  • Pyerite [34181]
  • Tritanium [236425]
  • Zydrine [624]
  • Data Chips [12]
  • Electronic Parts [30]
  • Guidance Systems [125]

Approx ~12mil isk build cost
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#51 - 2013-11-05 13:40:27 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
… the issue is we've just got a lot more pointless space-work that generates no content for anyone else. we survey towers every few hours, loot and blap siphons, log off


You are limiting your thinking by assuming everyone is going to use the siphons by deploying them and leaving them be.

it's trivial to get around someone trying to camp them, and if someone does try to gank the alt we just blap the siphon and the loot can from safely inside the shields

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#52 - 2013-11-05 13:53:55 UTC
the latter is just a "eugh, effort" response to a camper when you don't feel like taking the minute to loot the thing in perfect safety

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
Shadow Cartel
#53 - 2013-11-05 15:18:13 UTC
Axhind wrote:
Zloco Crendraven wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
… the issue is we've just got a lot more pointless space-work that generates no content for anyone else. we survey towers every few hours, loot and blap siphons, log off


You are limiting your thinking by assuming everyone is going to use the siphons by deploying them and leaving them be.


If you will need more hours than a normal gaming session to repay your siphon unit than people will be leaving them around POSes in hope that when they return tomorrow there is something.

If you can repay it in some 2-3 hours than you will come back pick up those 2-3 mils, leave it there and come back every few hours to get the reward. Than you go to sleep leave the siphon knowing that it will prolly be destroyed or stolen from.

In one gaming session a couple of mills aint much. But when you are doing for the corp while roaming that can be few couple of hundreds (10 members X 10 siphons) when you seed an entire region. Couple of hundred millions daily for a lowsec corp is huge money (you know we don't own those fancy moons).

There was a plan ongoing to seed 4-5 lowsec regions and force moon holders to drop them. But now nothing will happen because i repeat, the siphons are useless in this state. Becasue now instead of earning couple of hundreds of millions we could loose a billion daily (10 members x 10 siphons x 10+millions) That is a budget we can't sustain for a long period.

Goons can sustain that kind of loss to blockade (aka Troll, grief) smaller entities. That is why they push for higher entry barrier so they keep the griefing mechanic (which could be a profit one, much larger content provider) only for themselves.
Higher entry barrier, simple economics that big corporations use to keep as bigger piece of market as possible.

Because if CCP is going to follow this logic even with the larger ones, it is a dead system from the start. Larger ones won't be taken even in consideration.



Maybe you elite PvPers can take a break from hiding behind cloaks and go run an L4? If each of your 10 members does one GE or AE then each can afford 4 siphons. If you have issues making 10 mil here and there than you seriously need to up your game.

On the other hand I see how you want a free isk printing machine but with the moon nerf that is renters and sadly your are obviously not able to play with the big boys in 0.0.
While on it the reason you can't play with the big boys is exactly why you will not be able to benefit from siphons. You can't coordinate properly.


In other words you want to say that i am right that siphons ARE to expensive and i need to throw my life away so i can earn isk for a proper siphon seeding campaign that will result in a big - in my pocket and nothing else.

Think before posting. I know you guys in goonswarm are used to some brainless posting, but cmn this is a serious topic.

BALEX, bringing piracy on a whole new level.
I Love Boobies
All Hail Boobies
#54 - 2013-11-05 15:34:06 UTC
You really think people who want to grief Goons with siphons are going to care about profits OP?
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
Shadow Cartel
#55 - 2013-11-05 15:44:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Zloco Crendraven
I Love Boobies wrote:
You really think people who want to grief Goons with siphons are going to care about profits OP?


Ahm yesss...my corp and quite few more lowsec entiteis and few more from npc 0.0. That is around 10 entities that i know about.
Entities (corps, alliances)

Because and i repeat again small groups can not grief any big entity in EVE if the price are expensive. We are poor, we don't have budget worth of billions isk for griefing for a longer period. We hardly have isk for replacing some key doctrine ships.

If you grief a big entity you need to grief on larger scale (cover couple of regions) for quite few months.
And believe me my corp is among the wealthier around lowsec or NPC 0.0

If it can't at least break even in one gaming session it is not worth it, simple as that.

BALEX, bringing piracy on a whole new level.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#56 - 2013-11-05 15:44:34 UTC
Zloco Crendraven wrote:

In other words you want to say that i am right that siphons ARE to expensive and i need to throw my life away so i can earn isk for a proper siphon seeding campaign that will result in a big - in my pocket and nothing else.

Think before posting. I know you guys in goonswarm are used to some brainless posting, but cmn this is a serious topic.

proper game balance is me being able to do whatever i want cost-free please make sure eve meets this thank you

just me though nobody else

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
Shadow Cartel
#57 - 2013-11-05 15:51:01 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Zloco Crendraven wrote:

In other words you want to say that i am right that siphons ARE to expensive and i need to throw my life away so i can earn isk for a proper siphon seeding campaign that will result in a big - in my pocket and nothing else.

Think before posting. I know you guys in goonswarm are used to some brainless posting, but cmn this is a serious topic.

proper game balance is me being able to do whatever i want cost-free please make sure eve meets this thank you

just me though nobody else


lol...obviously you didn't read even one post. Just trolling around :D...again shows me that i am right

BALEX, bringing piracy on a whole new level.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#58 - 2013-11-05 15:55:49 UTC
Zloco Crendraven wrote:

lol...obviously you didn't read even one post. Just trolling around :D...again shows me that i am right

your post was entirely "proper balance would require effort on my part to get what i want"

my mockery was directly on point

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
Shadow Cartel
#59 - 2013-11-05 16:06:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Zloco Crendraven
Weaselior wrote:
Zloco Crendraven wrote:

lol...obviously you didn't read even one post. Just trolling around :D...again shows me that i am right

your post was entirely "proper balance would require effort on my part to get what i want"

my mockery was directly on point


- Seed 1-2 regions of siphon units (20 moons)
- Get to them back in 2-4 hours to return the isk invested (depends on moons)
- Get again back to them in 2-4 hours to scoop the profit

Go to sleep. Repeat this every day for at least 3 months to have any effect on a bigger entity. Why repeat everyday? Simply because they will be or destroyed or stolen from the next day. And this is for the price of 2 mil per siphon unit.
You call this no effort? It is huge effort. Almost impossible tbh for most of the lowsec or 0.0 NPC entities.

Now imagine for the current prices of 12 mil. It is 6 times that effort to only return the invested. It is billions and billions monthly to cover only 1-2 regions. As i said atm it is only "Big boys grief tool"

Be objective man.

BALEX, bringing piracy on a whole new level.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2013-11-05 17:39:50 UTC
Zloco Crendraven wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Zloco Crendraven wrote:

lol...obviously you didn't read even one post. Just trolling around :D...again shows me that i am right

your post was entirely "proper balance would require effort on my part to get what i want"

my mockery was directly on point


- Seed 1-2 regions of siphon units (20 moons)
- Get to them back in 2-4 hours to return the isk invested (depends on moons)
- Get again back to them in 2-4 hours to scoop the profit

Go to sleep. Repeat this every day for at least 3 months to have any effect on a bigger entity. Why repeat everyday? Simply because they will be or destroyed or stolen from the next day. And this is for the price of 2 mil per siphon unit.
You call this no effort? It is huge effort. Almost impossible tbh for most of the lowsec or 0.0 NPC entities.

Now imagine for the current prices of 12 mil. It is 6 times that effort to only return the invested. It is billions and billions monthly to cover only 1-2 regions. As i said atm it is only "Big boys grief tool"

Be objective man.


Seriously, if you are some scrub poor who cannot afford a few hundred siphons a month maybe you should be making ISK in other parts of EVE first.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.