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Balancing Feedback: Tier3 Battlecruisers

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Phantomania
Lonely Trek
#781 - 2011-11-18 13:13:12 UTC
SMT008 wrote:


Those ships ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO DO ANY KIND OF SOLO PVE.

ARE NOT.




Amazing, I havn't read anywhere that pilots are NOT ALLOWED TO DO SOLO PVE in the Tier3BCs, could you post a link with this information please.

Does that mean you get concorded if your able to and you do?

And I don't like the Drake, its ZZZzzzz!
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#782 - 2011-11-18 13:14:36 UTC
Jennifer Starling wrote:

Who says so?

Is it forbidden to do L3s in a Vagabond or Retribution because it's not specifically designed to do so?
Part of the fun in EVE is to find fits to make a ship suited for a lot of tasks. If someone can do L4s in a Naga, let them.


I'm not saying "You can't do lvl 4s with this", I'm saying "You're not supposed to because it's utterly ineffective and stupid".

The Retribution doesn't have two medslots, and this prevent it from being used in PVP.

The Vagabond have high EM/Therm resistances, and that's pretty good for BloodRaider ratting.

The Naga does less damage than a Drake. Tank less. And it's more expensive. Who in their right mind would run missions with this. Oh and, you can't shoot elite frigates if one of them tackle you.
Phantomania
Lonely Trek
#783 - 2011-11-18 13:18:11 UTC
SMT008 wrote:
Jennifer Starling wrote:

Who says so?

Is it forbidden to do L3s in a Vagabond or Retribution because it's not specifically designed to do so?
Part of the fun in EVE is to find fits to make a ship suited for a lot of tasks. If someone can do L4s in a Naga, let them.


I'm not saying "You can't do lvl 4s with this", I'm saying "You're not supposed to because it's utterly ineffective and stupid".

The Retribution doesn't have two medslots, and this prevent it from being used in PVP.

The Vagabond have high EM/Therm resistances, and that's pretty good for BloodRaider ratting.

The Naga does less damage than a Drake. Tank less. And it's more expensive. Who in their right mind would run missions with this. Oh and, you can't shoot elite frigates if one of them tackle you.



Oh, cause you can't, its ineffective and stupid, but then if another pilot can, what does that make you?
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#784 - 2011-11-18 13:28:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Gaines
Phantomania wrote:

I'll settle for the Launcher Hardpoints without bonus's, just to get 8 heavies on there!


Then you can complain that your torps don't hit anything and your ship always dies in a fire? Without the range, damage, and radial bonus a torp boat will be worthless. Go read up on the first half of this thread- exactly how terrible the Naga was EVEN WITH BONUSES.

Phantomania wrote:
Oh, cause you can't, its ineffective and stupid, but then if another pilot can, what does that make you?



Wait.. wait wait wait wait wait..

Are you posting the position that you are upset still that this ship doesn't have slots for what you want to do, and that thing you wanted to do was not even what the ship was intended to do in the first place?

That's like being mad that Jeep didn't make the Cherokee fast enough to use on a race track.


I'm sorry, but it's your fault for skilling only missiles and caldari ships.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
#785 - 2011-11-18 14:49:07 UTC
Vincent Gaines wrote:
Phantomania wrote:

I'll settle for the Launcher Hardpoints without bonus's, just to get 8 heavies on there!


Then you can complain that your torps don't hit anything and your ship always dies in a fire? Without the range, damage, and radial bonus a torp boat will be worthless. Go read up on the first half of this thread- exactly how terrible the Naga was EVEN WITH BONUSES.

Example. Perhaps people that have good missile skills but low hybrid skills would want the Naga to mission together to speed up the killing rate a bit. In L4s, you often spend most of your time killing battleships. So it would be far from worthless.

Next to that, the bonusses weren't set in stone yet, there was still room to tweak them for max versatility.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#786 - 2011-11-18 15:05:37 UTC
wether or not caldari players trained hybrids or not has NOTHING to do with why the Naga should be a torpedo or hybrid ship...
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#787 - 2011-11-18 15:32:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Gaines
Jennifer Starling wrote:
Example. Perhaps people that have good missile skills but low hybrid skills would want the Naga to mission together to speed up the killing rate a bit. In L4s, you often spend most of your time killing battleships. So it would be far from worthless.

Next to that, the bonusses weren't set in stone yet, there was still room to tweak them for max versatility.



They would be better off in a raven as a group to be honest.

If you're going to mission in a group to blitz missions, have a couple ravens to apply the siege DPS and several cruisers to push to the objective.


That's a more glaring problem.. There are other ships and ship classes in the game, use them effectively instead of relying on one cookie cutter ship to do things.

Pinky Denmark wrote:
wether or not caldari players trained hybrids or not has NOTHING to do with why the Naga should be a torpedo or hybrid ship...


It has everything to do with WHY most of them are whining about it not being a missile ship. Give me a valid reason why it should be a missile ship.

You didn't or don't want to train hybrids and feel left out. Would you like me to quote specific examples?

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
Phantomania
Lonely Trek
#788 - 2011-11-18 15:38:33 UTC
Vincent Gaines wrote:
Phantomania wrote:

I'll settle for the Launcher Hardpoints without bonus's, just to get 8 heavies on there!


Then you can complain that your torps don't hit anything and your ship always dies in a fire? Without the range, damage, and radial bonus a torp boat will be worthless. Go read up on the first half of this thread- exactly how terrible the Naga was EVEN WITH BONUSES.





Lol, you tell me to read the posts! I didn't even mention Torps! Read again!

Maybe you need new GLASSES! Lol

I don't want to take your precious Rail Naga with its bonus's away from you, I say just put the launcher hardpoints back without bonus's or the -% CPU and PG for Siege Launchers!

My idea doesn't effect the way the Naga is now at all, just the ability to throw 8 Heavies on there like the Talos has Drones!

Roll
InsomniaHUN
Stargate Universe SGU
#789 - 2011-11-18 16:07:41 UTC
Naga should be set back to the torpedo setup.. its kinda useless now.. if someone wants to use hybrid, use the gallante cruiser....
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#790 - 2011-11-18 16:15:51 UTC
Phantomania wrote:

My idea doesn't effect the way the Naga is now at all, just the ability to throw 8 Heavies on there like the Talos has Drones!

Roll



And....What would it bring ? It would still deal less DPS than a Drake, and the hull doesn't make up for that.

You basically want to be able to use this shiny looking hull for whatever you want, not for whatever it was designed for, right ?

Sorry, but you'll die in every decent lvl 4 mission.
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#791 - 2011-11-18 16:25:51 UTC
Phantomania wrote:

My idea doesn't effect the way the Naga is now at all, just the ability to throw 8 Heavies on there like the Talos has Drones!

Roll


huh?

Are you trolling?

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
Phantomania
Lonely Trek
#792 - 2011-11-18 16:27:11 UTC
SMT008 wrote:
Phantomania wrote:

My idea doesn't effect the way the Naga is now at all, just the ability to throw 8 Heavies on there like the Talos has Drones!

Roll



And....What would it bring ?




Why do you care? is it just for the sake of arguing, YOU still have the same Naga!

It will though bring some versatility, even nice to fit 1 or 2 heavies just to take out drones.

More choice is FTW, think about it!
Phantomania
Lonely Trek
#793 - 2011-11-18 16:29:59 UTC
Vincent Gaines wrote:
Phantomania wrote:

My idea doesn't effect the way the Naga is now at all, just the ability to throw 8 Heavies on there like the Talos has Drones!

Roll


huh?

Are you trolling?



I'm not answering you anymore, while you insist on wearing those glasses!
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#794 - 2011-11-18 16:29:59 UTC
InsomniaHUN wrote:
if someone wants to use hybrid, use the gallante cruiser....



Why do people still make this stupid comment?

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
Phantomania
Lonely Trek
#795 - 2011-11-18 16:31:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Phantomania
Vincent Gaines wrote:
InsomniaHUN wrote:
if someone wants to use hybrid, use the gallante cruiser....



Why do people still make this stupid comment?



probably for the same reason you slate every pro missile comment!

dam, forgot the glasses!
Sir Fury
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#796 - 2011-11-18 17:01:43 UTC
Vincent Gaines wrote:
Pinky Denmark wrote:
wether or not caldari players trained hybrids or not has NOTHING to do with why the Naga should be a torpedo or hybrid ship...


It has everything to do with WHY most of them are whining about it not being a missile ship. ...


Not everything. Not anything. Missile only capable pilots wanting a missile ship because they can't fly anything else is one faction. And they do not necessarily represent all those in favour of a Missile Naga.
Granted you say "most of them" & "not all of them". Maybe I am a minority among the "whiners", & as I mentioned before, I am skilled mainly in hybrids & projectiles, soon Lazors, not much in missiles.

But I would like to see a Missile Naga

Vincent Gaines wrote:
Give me a valid reason why it should be a missile ship....


Validity doesn't apply, we're all throwing out opinions based on our own prejudices. & my answer is a simple one. Variety.

Hybrid, Lazors, & Projectile capable pilots have a ship to fly. Those in Missiles don't. The reasoning has been primarily because missiles suck, in other words, would not fulfill the original purpose these ships were meant to serve. That saying, its still questionable whether the Talos will either.
In the end whether or not all the ships are able to perform "there intended" function, 1 or 2 ships, in this case the Tornado & maybe the Oracle, will overshadow the Talos & the Naga, hybrid or Launcher, unless further changes are made.

With the current game mechanics, maybe a hybrid Naga does perform better than a missile Naga.
As I said before, if CCP''s going to roll out a hybrid Naga for now, & will consider adding missile options later when they get around to making BS Missiles PvP compatible, its probably ok. Otherwise that's just them saying fixing missiles is just too hard work & we won't do it. That's not very good for the game. & in all honesty, with the "buffed hybrids" still a mess, getting around to missiles is a bit of a pipe dream.
So I say, let the missile capable pilots die in their Nagas. Us Hybrid pilots have 1 ship to play with, even if it needs improvements. Having 2 hybrid ships not only puts the 2 in direct competition (a battle of losers in my view, where there's no prize to be gained - like football spectators fighting while the actual players duke it out - looking at you Tornado & Oracle) with type of tank being the only distinction, its also boring.

TL:DR Let all the main weapon systems be represented for some variety. Despite CCP trying to pigeonhole these new BCs for a specific role, us players will likely choose the best of the lot for that purpose, & find another uses for the rest, if their lucky.

p.s. For a more selfish & irrational reasoning, being a Gallente pilot, I dislike the idea of a Caldari ship having a hybrid platform, which also may turn out to be better than our Hybrid platform. As bad as they are, Hybrids have traditionally been strongest amongst the Gallente. I want to keep it that way. But thats just possessive ol me.P
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#797 - 2011-11-18 17:17:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Gaines
Sir Fury wrote:

Validity doesn't apply, we're all throwing out opinions based on our own prejudices. & my answer is a simple one. Variety.

Hybrid, Lazors, & Projectile capable pilots have a ship to fly. Those in Missiles don't. The reasoning has been primarily because missiles suck, in other words, would not fulfill the original purpose these ships were meant to serve. That saying, its still questionable whether the Talos will either.
In the end whether or not all the ships are able to perform "there intended" function, 1 or 2 ships, in this case the Tornado & maybe the Oracle, will overshadow the Talos & the Naga, hybrid or Launcher, unless further changes are made.

With the current game mechanics, maybe a hybrid Naga does perform better than a missile Naga.
As I said before, if CCP''s going to roll out a hybrid Naga for now, & will consider adding missile options later when they get around to making BS Missiles PvP compatible, its probably ok. Otherwise that's just them saying fixing missiles is just too hard work & we won't do it. That's not very good for the game. & in all honesty, with the "buffed hybrids" still a mess, getting around to missiles is a bit of a pipe dream.
So I say, let the missile capable pilots die in their Nagas. Us Hybrid pilots have 1 ship to play with, even if it needs improvements. Having 2 hybrid ships not only puts the 2 in direct competition (a battle of losers in my view, where there's no prize to be gained - like football spectators fighting while the actual players duke it out - looking at you Tornado & Oracle) with type of tank being the only distinction, its also boring.

TL:DR Let all the main weapon systems be represented for some variety. Despite CCP trying to pigeonhole these new BCs for a specific role, us players will likely choose the best of the lot for that purpose, & find another uses for the rest, if their lucky.

p.s. For a more selfish & irrational reasoning, being a Gallente pilot, I dislike the idea of a Caldari ship having a hybrid platform, which also may turn out to be better than our Hybrid platform. As bad as they are, Hybrids have traditionally been strongest amongst the Gallente. I want to keep it that way. But thats just possessive ol me.P



Crap, that's a really good response. Finally.

I agree in many ways on what you said.

If they want to make a missile Naga, it would take a whole lot of fine tuning to be viable, lest it become extremely niche (anti-capital large bomber).

It would need to have 3 bonuses.
10% torpedo velocity
10% explosion radius
10% explosion velocity

This should, and mind you I'm theorycrafting and don't have a spreadsheet or any of that crap, but make it somewhat viable. You would also need to adjust the PG and CPU as early on there were reports of fitting issues.

The ship would need to be faster also, as it's kinda slow. the engagement range would need to be between 30-70km.

I still believe it would die horribly 1v1 with any of the other tier 3 BCs but I digress.

Speaking of the Talos.....

In every engagement I have had against a Tornado, I have been unable to "catch" it, even if we start at 11km.

This ship needs not a drone bay, but a web range bonus. I say give the thing 15% web range per level. and drop the damage bonus (use the bonus given to hybrids in the generic buff.

- drop drone bay (again)
- keep tracking bonus
- web range bonus 10% per level
- increase max speed to allow it to close
- reduce sig radius slightly

Now you have a GUNship that can get in closer.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
m0cking bird
Doomheim
#798 - 2011-11-18 17:21:44 UTC  |  Edited by: m0cking bird
Well, if you really want more missiles ships. Why not push for them? Even if they may not be as useful in some areas of eve. Siege Naga may be useful for missions I suppose (i dunno).
Wylee Coyote
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#799 - 2011-11-18 20:43:37 UTC
Sir Fury wrote:

Vincent Gaines wrote:
Give me a valid reason why it should be a missile ship....


Validity doesn't apply, we're all throwing out opinions based on our own prejudices. & my answer is a simple one. Variety.

Hybrid, Lazors, & Projectile capable pilots have a ship to fly. Those in Missiles don't. The reasoning has been primarily because missiles suck, in other words, would not fulfill the original purpose these ships were meant to serve. That saying, its still questionable whether the Talos will either.
In the end whether or not all the ships are able to perform "there intended" function, 1 or 2 ships, in this case the Tornado & maybe the Oracle, will overshadow the Talos & the Naga, hybrid or Launcher, unless further changes are made.

With the current game mechanics, maybe a hybrid Naga does perform better than a missile Naga.
As I said before, if CCP''s going to roll out a hybrid Naga for now, & will consider adding missile options later when they get around to making BS Missiles PvP compatible, its probably ok. Otherwise that's just them saying fixing missiles is just too hard work & we won't do it. That's not very good for the game. & in all honesty, with the "buffed hybrids" still a mess, getting around to missiles is a bit of a pipe dream.
So I say, let the missile capable pilots die in their Nagas. Us Hybrid pilots have 1 ship to play with, even if it needs improvements. Having 2 hybrid ships not only puts the 2 in direct competition (a battle of losers in my view, where there's no prize to be gained - like football spectators fighting while the actual players duke it out - looking at you Tornado & Oracle) with type of tank being the only distinction, its also boring.

TL:DR Let all the main weapon systems be represented for some variety. Despite CCP trying to pigeonhole these new BCs for a specific role, us players will likely choose the best of the lot for that purpose, & find another uses for the rest, if their lucky.

p.s. For a more selfish & irrational reasoning, being a Gallente pilot, I dislike the idea of a Caldari ship having a hybrid platform, which also may turn out to be better than our Hybrid platform. As bad as they are, Hybrids have traditionally been strongest amongst the Gallente. I want to keep it that way. But thats just possessive ol me.P


QFE
JessiJames
Bats Country
#800 - 2011-11-18 22:48:09 UTC  |  Edited by: JessiJames
I was going to complain again - but the changes are pretty good now ! Wonder why not have the Talos=Naga and make the Torps more useful on the latter but hey.

Actually i have a complaint:

Speed with 10MN MWD:

Tornado: 1662 m/s
Talos: 1604 m/s
Oracle: 1436 m/s
Naga: 1386 m/s


Can you even that out a bit for the Naga and Oracle ??!?!? Please ? I see no reason why they should be that much slower.