Player Features and Ideas Discussion

It seems reasonably clear that, in EVE Online, the rewards for certain activities are intended to get higher the more risk those activities entail. The level of reward also reflects the security status of the system the activity is performed in. A little reflection shows that the risk/reward structure coming from a system's security status is based on the risk of unscheduled capsuleer interaction, or PvP if you prefer. To show how this is the case consider planetary interaction, where there are richer resources under less competition in the lower security spaces, but where the only risk to reaping that reward is being caught by another capsuleer.

Before the industrial ship rebalance, a planet gooer pilot needed to make compromises: fit for survivability, or fit for capacity. Do you fit warp core stabilisers to help your ship escape an attacker, or expanded cargoholds to make fewer trips? On top of that was the choice of ship. Basic Tech 1 variants are cheap but liable to explode; you can afford to lose them, but you almost certainly will lose a few. Or a gooer could opt for the sturdier, cloakable, and inherently safer Tech 2 transports at the cost of two orders of magnitude more ISK. You're less likely to lose one, but it will sting if you do.

Now, with the introduction of the Epithal, there is no compromise to be made. Gooers have a ship with a vast bay, specific to the task and unmodifiable by fitted modules, leaving spare slots for a tank and room for four warp core stabilisers, all in a ship that is cheap enough to be disposable anyway. Carry more goo and get it home safely, in all classes of space where you should, by definition, be at risk from other capsuleers but no longer are.

I appreciate the desire to create tailored ship classes. I also appreciate that well-flown ships should be able to survive. And I am not decrying my lack of targets just because I see less explosions. My opening remarks hopefully show that planet gooers should be at risk from other pilots, precisely because they are the only risk planet gooers see for their increased reward. The design of the Epithal flouts this principle.

A simple fix, to restore the risk/reward structure that seems integral to the EVE Online, would be to reduce the number of low fitting slots on the Epithal. Strip the low fitting slots available down to two as a maximum, or perhaps just the one. After all, it probably doesn't need them anyway. The ship does what it is designed to do without any fitting, boosted now by skill training instead.

An alternative, if an extension to the meta game is preferred, is to introduce a new module, one that could even benefit more than the haulers-versus-gankers struggle I've outlined. Create a mid-slot module that acts as an infini-point against ships with warp core stabilisers fit, however many are on the ship, but does nothing against ships that have don't have any fit. Such a module would determine fitting choices for both gankers and haulers alike—as well as those faction warfare pilots frustrated by button-pushers—prompting questions and compromises for both.

Do you fit warp core stabilisers to the brim of your low slots, hoping that a ship with a standard disruptor or scrambler is waiting? Or do you gamble on someone hoping to catch you with WCS and go naked, fitting for agility? And does the attacker fit the WCS infini-pointer with a view to catching gooers, or other sneaky ships that don't intend to fight, or fit standard disruption for more standard encounters? Or fit both, relinquishing valuable utility fitting slots to ensure you catch your prey?

Of course, 'otherwise doing nothing' is not a great design for any module, so perhaps the WCS infini-pointer could act as a sub-standard webifier module if WCS are not fit, having maybe 50% the effect of the standard Tech 1 variant. This would make the module useful in conjunction with fitting a normal warp disruptor, but still not as efficient. And if the WCS infini-pointer is given the shortened range of a warp scrambler but without the ability to cut off micro warp drives then the chance of the target ship's capture is still not guaranteed, particularly when bearing in mind a non-WCS ship could be boosted in to warp sooner if webbed instead of warp-disrupted.

The WCS infini-pointer module may seem unbalanced, and may well actually be unbalanced, probably with some unintended consequences waiting to be found. It is just a first pass at an idea to keep space dangerous. But I don't think it breaks more than it fixes. Fitting both the new module and a standard scrambler isn't as good as combining a scrambler with a webifier, and not as expensive—in ISK or fitting compromise—as needing to fit two three-point faction scramblers to catch a basic Tech 1 industrial ship, which, frankly, seems perverse. Being caught by multiple ships with a spread of fitting would be no different from being caught by multiple ships with multiple points of warp disruption. And there always remains the option for a planet gooer to fit an ECM module or carry ECM drones to escape a lone ambusher. Or, you know, forget the module and just strip the Epithal of some low fitting slots.

HIC, Tier 3 BC, multiple scrams. Three solutions just off the top of my head.

Fine, bump the thing and shoot it in a destroyer. Is it really that hard to counter a choice of a particular fit? Hell, in a Corax you can have a MWD and 3 scrams to both bump and scram.

The meta solution for this "problem" is bumping.

YOU are.

"Immune to Interdiction"? You may want to re-phrase that. I'm pretty sure an Interdictor can catch and destroy any T1 hauler. Anyone care to dispute that? Bubbles work in W-space, last time I checked.

"Bumping is unreliable"? And that's supposed to be my problem? CCP's problem? No. It's YOUR problem. Practice. Improve. WORK ON YOUR SKILLS!

"Needing to bring friends to pop a T1 hauler is perverse"? Why? I'm supposed to bring friends to properly fly one! Scouts, webbers, possibly ECM/counter gankers (see, I read the forums, and every one of these statements has been applied by gankers to haulers - sucks when it's you on the other end, doesn't it?).

Also, you're indirectly complaining that the ship is able to carry valuable cargo that can't be destroyed without incurring expense on the ganker's part - you may want to refer back to the innumerable thread posts stating that there is/should be no relationship between the cost of the hauler, the value of the cargo, and the cost of the ships needed to kill that hauler - but those are all about the price of freighters versus Catalysts (again, sucks when you're on the receiving end, doesn't it?)

So, again, I reiterate what I said above.

HTFU, little ganker!

Or, go do PI in W-Space, and tell all of us how risk-free it is, and laugh all the way to the bank!

Single bubble Sabre with full rack of guns and dual webs. Drop bubble, web industrial, blat blat.

I mean, I am assuming you actually know warp core stabs don't work against bubbles.

You guys in w-space have gotten obsessed with catching everything with a cloaky Proteus or some similar ship. Try out solo dictor fits for once.

Doesn't invalidate anything I posted above. I do Industry, Hauling, bad PVP (mostly just a fleet line pilot, but I'm learning how to use a Neut Domi), PVE, some Trading, etc. I've been ganked numerous times.

I used to fly a stabbed Bestower in lowsec, and had various impolite comments posted in local about my bravery, sexual orientation, my Mother's marital status at the time of my conception/birth, the length of my future Eve career, and many other things, just because I used Warp Core Stabs in a hauler, because I wasn't 'playing Eve right'.

I used the tools I had available to the best of my ability. I eventually lost that ship, but it took the tackler grabbing me with two scramblers. Fair play to him, he earned the kill.

Same principle applies here. If you want the kill, EARN IT. Use a better ship, use a better fit, ask for help. Go read all of the forum posts about freighters, and you'll readily and easily be able to understand how hilarious it is to read about a ganker whining that "it's too hard" to kill a hauler. Maybe it's time for you to take all of the advice you gankers have so helpfully offered freighter pilots for so long.

Then why am I reading this forum post? Are you referring to the OP as a 'ganker', or an 'Elite PVP'er'? I see someone claiming that a T1 hauler is too hard to catch/kill. I see someone who hasn't yet adapted to the situation. I see complaints that it's not 'easy.'

Tough. I don't care that someone lives in a WH (I did it for over a year), and can't find a way to punish the mean PI guy, who is lazily laughing all the way to the bank.

To quote Gunny Highway, "Improvise, Adapt, Overcome!"

With the added caveat that, if you can't, stop complaining about those who do, and learn from them.

gank =/= suicide-gank

So, essentially, a T1 industrial ship change means that I should be flying fleets of battlecruisers/battleships to destroy structures instead of aiming for a simple, unarmed hauler?

I don't quite get why a cheap, basic ship should require a logistics operation to catch.