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Making the Epithal catchable, or adding to the meta-game of warp core stablisers

Author
Penny Ibramovic
Wormhole Engineers
#1 - 2013-11-03 11:50:48 UTC
It seems reasonably clear that, in EVE Online, the rewards for certain activities are intended to get higher the more risk those activities entail. The level of reward also reflects the security status of the system the activity is performed in. A little reflection shows that the risk/reward structure coming from a system's security status is based on the risk of unscheduled capsuleer interaction, or PvP if you prefer. To show how this is the case consider planetary interaction, where there are richer resources under less competition in the lower security spaces, but where the only risk to reaping that reward is being caught by another capsuleer.

Before the industrial ship rebalance, a planet gooer pilot needed to make compromises: fit for survivability, or fit for capacity. Do you fit warp core stabilisers to help your ship escape an attacker, or expanded cargoholds to make fewer trips? On top of that was the choice of ship. Basic Tech 1 variants are cheap but liable to explode; you can afford to lose them, but you almost certainly will lose a few. Or a gooer could opt for the sturdier, cloakable, and inherently safer Tech 2 transports at the cost of two orders of magnitude more ISK. You're less likely to lose one, but it will sting if you do.

Now, with the introduction of the Epithal, there is no compromise to be made. Gooers have a ship with a vast bay, specific to the task and unmodifiable by fitted modules, leaving spare slots for a tank and room for four warp core stabilisers, all in a ship that is cheap enough to be disposable anyway. Carry more goo and get it home safely, in all classes of space where you should, by definition, be at risk from other capsuleers but no longer are.

I appreciate the desire to create tailored ship classes. I also appreciate that well-flown ships should be able to survive. And I am not decrying my lack of targets just because I see less explosions. My opening remarks hopefully show that planet gooers should be at risk from other pilots, precisely because they are the only risk planet gooers see for their increased reward. The design of the Epithal flouts this principle.

A simple fix, to restore the risk/reward structure that seems integral to the EVE Online, would be to reduce the number of low fitting slots on the Epithal. Strip the low fitting slots available down to two as a maximum, or perhaps just the one. After all, it probably doesn't need them anyway. The ship does what it is designed to do without any fitting, boosted now by skill training instead.

An alternative, if an extension to the meta game is preferred, is to introduce a new module, one that could even benefit more than the haulers-versus-gankers struggle I've outlined. Create a mid-slot module that acts as an infini-point against ships with warp core stabilisers fit, however many are on the ship, but does nothing against ships that have don't have any fit. Such a module would determine fitting choices for both gankers and haulers alike—as well as those faction warfare pilots frustrated by button-pushers—prompting questions and compromises for both.

Do you fit warp core stabilisers to the brim of your low slots, hoping that a ship with a standard disruptor or scrambler is waiting? Or do you gamble on someone hoping to catch you with WCS and go naked, fitting for agility? And does the attacker fit the WCS infini-pointer with a view to catching gooers, or other sneaky ships that don't intend to fight, or fit standard disruption for more standard encounters? Or fit both, relinquishing valuable utility fitting slots to ensure you catch your prey?

Of course, 'otherwise doing nothing' is not a great design for any module, so perhaps the WCS infini-pointer could act as a sub-standard webifier module if WCS are not fit, having maybe 50% the effect of the standard Tech 1 variant. This would make the module useful in conjunction with fitting a normal warp disruptor, but still not as efficient. And if the WCS infini-pointer is given the shortened range of a warp scrambler but without the ability to cut off micro warp drives then the chance of the target ship's capture is still not guaranteed, particularly when bearing in mind a non-WCS ship could be boosted in to warp sooner if webbed instead of warp-disrupted.

The WCS infini-pointer module may seem unbalanced, and may well actually be unbalanced, probably with some unintended consequences waiting to be found. It is just a first pass at an idea to keep space dangerous. But I don't think it breaks more than it fixes. Fitting both the new module and a standard scrambler isn't as good as combining a scrambler with a webifier, and not as expensive—in ISK or fitting compromise—as needing to fit two three-point faction scramblers to catch a basic Tech 1 industrial ship, which, frankly, seems perverse. Being caught by multiple ships with a spread of fitting would be no different from being caught by multiple ships with multiple points of warp disruption. And there always remains the option for a planet gooer to fit an ECM module or carry ECM drones to escape a lone ambusher. Or, you know, forget the module and just strip the Epithal of some low fitting slots.
Kellath Eladrel
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2013-11-03 13:14:36 UTC
An Itty V has a cargobay well over 35,000 cubic meters and agility similar to the epithal, with 5 low slots.

The answer has always been to bump-kill or use the infinite point already in the game (it's called Focused Warp Disruption Script). Or hell, bring moar scrams.

To get more abstract, it's already very doable to catch and kill haulers in a variety of ships, whether they're agility fit, WCS fit, or whatever. You're saying that the Epithal ruins the risk-reward balance of PI, but the change you propose would increase the risk factor enormously where I think it's already quite high.

TLDR, if a goram T1 hauler gets away from you, he deserves it, we don't need a gamewide buff to warp disruption mechanics.

Five card stud, nothing wild, and the sky's the limit.

NearNihil
Jump Drive Appreciation Society
Jump Drive Appreciation Alliance
#3 - 2013-11-03 13:57:28 UTC
HIC, Tier 3 BC, multiple scrams. Three solutions just off the top of my head.
Penny Ibramovic
Wormhole Engineers
#4 - 2013-11-03 14:59:17 UTC
If a T1 hauler needs a HIC, multiple scrams, or a tier 3 battlecruiser to be threatened, then that T1 hauler is overpowered. That's all I'm saying.
NearNihil
Jump Drive Appreciation Society
Jump Drive Appreciation Alliance
#5 - 2013-11-03 15:14:16 UTC
Fine, bump the thing and shoot it in a destroyer. Is it really that hard to counter a choice of a particular fit? Hell, in a Corax you can have a MWD and 3 scrams to both bump and scram.
Meyr
Pirannha Corp
#6 - 2013-11-03 15:53:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Meyr
I've said it before, and I'll say it again...

WOW, ARE GANKERS AND PIRATES THE WHINIEST GROUP OF EVE PLAYERS!!!

You have almost unlimited options at your disposal, and you're crying because you can't easily catch and destroy a T1 hauler with a ship that's cheap enough for you to not regret losing it?

Awwwwwww, poor baby! How about you take the very same advice you 'Elite PVP'rs' always give haulers:

1. Bring friends, or fit differently. If I choose to fit a DC II, and a rack of Warp Stabs, then it's your job to fit two scrams to stop me. There's no difference here between my old Bestower/Iteron V fits or what is available as fitting options today. (I can't wait for the response to this one...)

2. Use a different ship for the job.

3. Change your tactics. I believe someone above mentioned 'bumping' as an option?

4. Choose a different playstyle, if this one is too frustrating for you to deal with.

HTFU, as you guys always tell your targets. Get off your lazy butts and adapt. You were gifted with the four most common racial haulers being made even easier for you to kill, you have 'Tags for Sec Status' so you don't have to actually go WORK to regain it, Teir 3 BC's for cheaper ganking hulls, the cops don't arrest/hold you in civilized space, no matter how low your sec status, ship & cargo scanners so you're not having to 'risk' killing an empty hull (notice that the hauler must risk losing everything?)...

AND YOU'RE STILL WHINING?!?!

Really?
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#7 - 2013-11-03 15:55:55 UTC
The meta solution for this "problem" is bumping.

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--

Penny Ibramovic
Wormhole Engineers
#8 - 2013-11-03 16:04:06 UTC
Meyr wrote:
1. Bring friends, or fit differently. If I choose to fit a DC II, and a rack of Warp Stabs, then it's your job to fit two scrams to stop me. There's no difference here between my old Bestower/Iteron V fits or what is available as fitting options today. (I can't wait for the response to this one...)


The difference is that your old fits couldn't carry as much as the new hauler, so if you were fully stabbed you would need to make multiple trips to carry any significant amount of material. And note that your Itty V fit required a level V skill and still couldn't hold as much as an Epithal with only basic training.

Also, needing to bring friends to pop a tech 1 industrial ship is a little perverse.

Meyr wrote:
3. Change your tactics. I believe someone above mentioned 'bumping' as an option?


It's an option, but it's unreliable.

Meyr wrote:
4. Choose a different playstyle, if this one is too frustrating for you to deal with.


And let w-space planet gooers gain ISK hand-over-fist all because a tech 1 industrial ship has made them nearly immune to simple interdiction, without an need to compromise their fit or fly with any skill? My main argument is that reward should come with risk. The Epithal has all but negated the risk of collecting planet goo, certainly in w-space, but with the same reward. I consider this to be an issue of balance.

Meyr wrote:
AND YOU'RE STILL WHINING?!?!

Really?


Who's whining?
Meyr
Pirannha Corp
#9 - 2013-11-03 16:26:58 UTC
Penny Ibramovic wrote:
Meyr wrote:
1. Bring friends, or fit differently. If I choose to fit a DC II, and a rack of Warp Stabs, then it's your job to fit two scrams to stop me. There's no difference here between my old Bestower/Iteron V fits or what is available as fitting options today. (I can't wait for the response to this one...)


The difference is that your old fits couldn't carry as much as the new hauler, so if you were fully stabbed you would need to make multiple trips to carry any significant amount of material. And note that your Itty V fit required a level V skill and still couldn't hold as much as an Epithal with only basic training.

Also, needing to bring friends to pop a tech 1 industrial ship is a little perverse.

Meyr wrote:
3. Change your tactics. I believe someone above mentioned 'bumping' as an option?


It's an option, but it's unreliable.

Meyr wrote:
4. Choose a different playstyle, if this one is too frustrating for you to deal with.


And let w-space planet gooers gain ISK hand-over-fist all because a tech 1 industrial ship has made them nearly immune to simple interdiction, without an need to compromise their fit or fly with any skill? My main argument is that reward should come with risk. The Epithal has all but negated the risk of collecting planet goo, certainly in w-space, but with the same reward. I consider this to be an issue of balance.

Meyr wrote:
AND YOU'RE STILL WHINING?!?!

Really?


Who's whining?


YOU are.

"Immune to Interdiction"? You may want to re-phrase that. I'm pretty sure an Interdictor can catch and destroy any T1 hauler. Anyone care to dispute that? Bubbles work in W-space, last time I checked.

"Bumping is unreliable"? And that's supposed to be my problem? CCP's problem? No. It's YOUR problem. Practice. Improve. WORK ON YOUR SKILLS!

"Needing to bring friends to pop a T1 hauler is perverse"? Why? I'm supposed to bring friends to properly fly one! Scouts, webbers, possibly ECM/counter gankers (see, I read the forums, and every one of these statements has been applied by gankers to haulers - sucks when it's you on the other end, doesn't it?).

Also, you're indirectly complaining that the ship is able to carry valuable cargo that can't be destroyed without incurring expense on the ganker's part - you may want to refer back to the innumerable thread posts stating that there is/should be no relationship between the cost of the hauler, the value of the cargo, and the cost of the ships needed to kill that hauler - but those are all about the price of freighters versus Catalysts (again, sucks when you're on the receiving end, doesn't it?)

So, again, I reiterate what I said above.

HTFU, little ganker!

Or, go do PI in W-Space, and tell all of us how risk-free it is, and laugh all the way to the bank!
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2013-11-03 16:51:57 UTC
Meyr wrote:
Or, go do PI in W-Space, and tell all of us how risk-free it is, and laugh all the way to the bank!


Penny is primarily talking about W-Space, since she lives there. And writes a (daily updated) blog about her experiences. http://www.tigerears.org/
Beaver Retriever
Reality Sequence
#11 - 2013-11-03 17:00:06 UTC
Single bubble Sabre with full rack of guns and dual webs. Drop bubble, web industrial, blat blat.

I mean, I am assuming you actually know warp core stabs don't work against bubbles.

You guys in w-space have gotten obsessed with catching everything with a cloaky Proteus or some similar ship. Try out solo dictor fits for once.
Nathalie LaPorte
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2013-11-03 17:05:31 UTC
If the epithal gets caught, the gooer just puts the cargo back in the POCO and loses nothing of real value. You should be targeting the gooer as he/her does logistics between k-space and w-space, anyway. This would involve adapting and flying a dictor, or bumping, or using a drag bubble.


Or you could adapt and attack the POCO/POS of the PI gooer, instead of limiting your tactics to only attacking one point of the chain. Instead of assuming that CCP has overlooked the fact that the epithal is harder to kill at a POCO, perhaps you should consider that CCP probably intentionally prefers these other methods of attack, which motivated the change in the first place.

The (t1 ship can't be reliably stopped except with a t2 ship, so the t1 ship is overpowered) argument is hilarious. What about gankers routinely using t1 dessies to take out t2 mining barges? Do you think that proves that t1 dessies are overpowered? How about other t1 ships, such as titans, should they be able to defeat a t2 jump freighter in 1v1 battle? Forget battle-badgers, where's my battle-rhea!
Meyr
Pirannha Corp
#13 - 2013-11-03 17:09:24 UTC
Doesn't invalidate anything I posted above. I do Industry, Hauling, bad PVP (mostly just a fleet line pilot, but I'm learning how to use a Neut Domi), PVE, some Trading, etc. I've been ganked numerous times.

I used to fly a stabbed Bestower in lowsec, and had various impolite comments posted in local about my bravery, sexual orientation, my Mother's marital status at the time of my conception/birth, the length of my future Eve career, and many other things, just because I used Warp Core Stabs in a hauler, because I wasn't 'playing Eve right'.

I used the tools I had available to the best of my ability. I eventually lost that ship, but it took the tackler grabbing me with two scramblers. Fair play to him, he earned the kill.

Same principle applies here. If you want the kill, EARN IT. Use a better ship, use a better fit, ask for help. Go read all of the forum posts about freighters, and you'll readily and easily be able to understand how hilarious it is to read about a ganker whining that "it's too hard" to kill a hauler. Maybe it's time for you to take all of the advice you gankers have so helpfully offered freighter pilots for so long.
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2013-11-03 17:17:05 UTC
Meyr wrote:
Same principle applies here. If you want the kill, EARN IT. Use a better ship, use a better fit, ask for help. Go read all of the forum posts about freighters, and you'll readily and easily be able to understand how hilarious it is to read about a ganker whining that "it's too hard" to kill a hauler. Maybe it's time for you to take all of the advice you gankers have so helpfully offered freighter pilots for so long.


You know, that's the difference between gankers and the elite-pvp crowd: Gankers, despite numerous nerfs to their profession, have adapted and changed their tactics. They did this so good that there still are dozens of whiny carebears demanding more nerfs to ganking. The elite-pvp crowd, instead of adapting, whines about changes and demands "fixes".
Meyr
Pirannha Corp
#15 - 2013-11-03 17:28:55 UTC
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Meyr wrote:
Same principle applies here. If you want the kill, EARN IT. Use a better ship, use a better fit, ask for help. Go read all of the forum posts about freighters, and you'll readily and easily be able to understand how hilarious it is to read about a ganker whining that "it's too hard" to kill a hauler. Maybe it's time for you to take all of the advice you gankers have so helpfully offered freighter pilots for so long.


You know, that's the difference between gankers and the elite-pvp crowd: Gankers, despite numerous nerfs to their profession, have adapted and changed their tactics. They did this so good that there still are dozens of whiny carebears demanding more nerfs to ganking. The elite-pvp crowd, instead of adapting, whines about changes and demands "fixes".


Then why am I reading this forum post? Are you referring to the OP as a 'ganker', or an 'Elite PVP'er'? I see someone claiming that a T1 hauler is too hard to catch/kill. I see someone who hasn't yet adapted to the situation. I see complaints that it's not 'easy.'

Tough. I don't care that someone lives in a WH (I did it for over a year), and can't find a way to punish the mean PI guy, who is lazily laughing all the way to the bank.

To quote Gunny Highway, "Improvise, Adapt, Overcome!"

With the added caveat that, if you can't, stop complaining about those who do, and learn from them.
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2013-11-03 17:35:42 UTC
Meyr wrote:
Then why am I reading this forum post? Are you referring to the OP as a 'ganker', or an 'Elite PVP'er'? I see someone claiming that a T1 hauler is too hard to catch/kill. I see someone who hasn't yet adapted to the situation. I see complaints that it's not 'easy.'


It's clear from OP's corp, his blog and place of living that she is not a suicide ganker. Most wormholers are of the opinion that they are god's chosen people and destined to bring elite pvp to New Eden. ("We are no skill-less blobbers, we don't do ****** sov wars, we are small gang specialists, bringing back solo pvp" etc).

Nathalie LaPorte
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2013-11-03 17:41:22 UTC
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Meyr wrote:
Then why am I reading this forum post? Are you referring to the OP as a 'ganker', or an 'Elite PVP'er'? I see someone claiming that a T1 hauler is too hard to catch/kill. I see someone who hasn't yet adapted to the situation. I see complaints that it's not 'easy.'


It's clear from OP's corp, his blog and place of living that she is not a suicide ganker. Most wormholers are of the opinion that they are god's chosen people and destined to bring elite pvp to New Eden. ("We are no skill-less blobbers, we don't do ****** sov wars, we are small gang specialists, bringing back solo pvp" etc).




gank =/= suicide-gank
Alexhandr Shkarov
ExDominion
Evictus.
#18 - 2013-11-03 17:50:46 UTC
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Meyr wrote:
Or, go do PI in W-Space, and tell all of us how risk-free it is, and laugh all the way to the bank!


Penny is primarily talking about W-Space, since she lives there. And writes a (daily updated) blog about her experiences. http://www.tigerears.org/


Looks like her blog would fit 'tigerTears.org' much better.

All my posts are on my personal title and should not be confused as me speaking for anyone else.

Penny Ibramovic
Wormhole Engineers
#19 - 2013-11-03 18:05:29 UTC
Nathalie LaPorte wrote:
Or you could adapt and attack the POCO/POS of the PI gooer, instead of limiting your tactics to only attacking one point of the chain. Instead of assuming that CCP has overlooked the fact that the epithal is harder to kill at a POCO, perhaps you should consider that CCP probably intentionally prefers these other methods of attack, which motivated the change in the first place.


So, essentially, a T1 industrial ship change means that I should be flying fleets of battlecruisers/battleships to destroy structures instead of aiming for a simple, unarmed hauler?

I don't quite get why a cheap, basic ship should require a logistics operation to catch.
Alexhandr Shkarov
ExDominion
Evictus.
#20 - 2013-11-03 18:11:51 UTC
Penny Ibramovic wrote:
Nathalie LaPorte wrote:
Or you could adapt and attack the POCO/POS of the PI gooer, instead of limiting your tactics to only attacking one point of the chain. Instead of assuming that CCP has overlooked the fact that the epithal is harder to kill at a POCO, perhaps you should consider that CCP probably intentionally prefers these other methods of attack, which motivated the change in the first place.


So, essentially, a T1 industrial ship change means that I should be flying fleets of battlecruisers/battleships to destroy structures instead of aiming for a simple, unarmed hauler?

I don't quite get why a cheap, basic ship should require a logistics operation to catch.


For the simple reason that while the hull may be cheap, it is a cargo ship and requires some effort to get it killed. It allows people to actually have a chance once they fly around, which is the whole problem that we had prior. I for one do not mind to see that gankers need to put more effort in their roams.

All my posts are on my personal title and should not be confused as me speaking for anyone else.

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