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Let's break a t2 Monopoly.

Author
Haulie Berry
#81 - 2013-10-22 16:57:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Dex Thunakar wrote:


Hmm I didn't say it's unfair that people buy them. What's unfair is that they were originally given to certain players for free...



Except, they weren't given to certain players for free. They were awarded to people via a lottery system, with the chance to win being proportional to the player's investment into the system. This is the exact, factual opposite of "free", and it's no more or less "unfair" than it is when Alice and Bob walk into the same casino, Alice goes bust, and Bob hits the jackpot.

So, since you've just asserted that that's the basis of the complaint, and since we've now established that your premise is factually incorrect, you no longer have a complaint.

Glad I could clear that up for you.
Altalicious
State War Academy
Caldari State
#82 - 2013-10-25 11:41:25 UTC
Elena Thiesant wrote:
Gargep Farrow wrote:
One area I quickly noticed that BPO's have a good advantage is in making some BPCs. Take mining crystals for example. I can make a ten run copy, (leaving out decryptors) whereas a BPO owner can make a 100 run one.


However those copies take longer to make than the items themselves. T2 Mining crystal BPO takes (at PE 0) a minute and a half to manufacture a single item and 5 minutes to make a 1-run copy. So that 100-run Veldspar Mining Crystal II BPC took 8.3 hours to create, in that time the BPO owner could instead have manufactured over 300 crystals


This is one area that CCP needs to take up. The copying time for T1 bpcs is horrendous and they are treated as modules not ammo. I wouldn't mind inventing these but they are just not worth it. The copy times for T1 needs to be addressed and the amount produced per T2 run needs to bumped. Right now these items are a joke.
Zifrian
The Pannion Domin
Ghostbirds
#83 - 2013-10-25 15:56:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Zifrian
Altalicious wrote:
Elena Thiesant wrote:
Gargep Farrow wrote:
One area I quickly noticed that BPO's have a good advantage is in making some BPCs. Take mining crystals for example. I can make a ten run copy, (leaving out decryptors) whereas a BPO owner can make a 100 run one.


However those copies take longer to make than the items themselves. T2 Mining crystal BPO takes (at PE 0) a minute and a half to manufacture a single item and 5 minutes to make a 1-run copy. So that 100-run Veldspar Mining Crystal II BPC took 8.3 hours to create, in that time the BPO owner could instead have manufactured over 300 crystals


This is one area that CCP needs to take up. The copying time for T1 bpcs is horrendous and they are treated as modules not ammo. I wouldn't mind inventing these but they are just not worth it. The copy times for T1 needs to be addressed and the amount produced per T2 run needs to bumped. Right now these items are a joke.

The copy times are largely irrelevant because the market adapts to the conditions of making the item. If you look at T2 crystals, they have gone up and down but are generally a profitable item. So while it might be nice to flatten the times to make them, (I think I even complained about this at one time) the profitability doesn't seem to be drastically affected by it since people who don't mind it make them is small compared to those that stay away.

The one item that seems to have a huge problem with copying is cloaking devices. I think you can only make 1 or 2 full run copies in a station. I think that's because it's being treated as a T2 blueprint. But then again my same logic applies. What?

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Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
#84 - 2013-10-26 04:03:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Barbara Nichole
Elena Thiesant wrote:
Alice Loreley wrote:
Invention does not have any sense to make some profit, it's just useless, because your potential loss is terribly huge.


You might want to run those numbers again, invention is far from without profit.


Absolutely; what's more, many BPOs that have changed hands have cost the new purchasers so much they will never break even with going market rates. It's not a real problem unless you believe that envy and jealousy is a real problem.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]

Callduron
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#85 - 2013-10-27 00:57:13 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Alice Loreley wrote:
Let's discuss

You must be new to manufacturing, as you are completely wrong, or another Brewlar Kuvakei alt.

T2 BPOs do not control the markets of any decent volume items worth inventing. T2 BPOs do rule the markets of low volume items not worth inventing.

I've earned hundreds of billions of ISK inventing. I've never owned a T2 BPO, nor do I want to.

There is no T2 BPO monopoly.


However T2 BPOs are first at the trough leaving the rest of us to live off what they leave.

There's no reason for T2 BPOs to persist in the game. They are the Technetium of manufacturing. Out of date, overpowered, tainted with scandal. Anyone who had one has had plenty of time to exploit this asset. It's high time they were removed and a fairer more level playing field brought into being for Eve industrialists.

I write http://stabbedup.blogspot.co.uk/

I post on reddit as /u/callduron.

Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
Goonswarm Federation
#86 - 2013-10-27 20:28:45 UTC
Callduron wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Alice Loreley wrote:
Let's discuss

You must be new to manufacturing, as you are completely wrong, or another Brewlar Kuvakei alt.

T2 BPOs do not control the markets of any decent volume items worth inventing. T2 BPOs do rule the markets of low volume items not worth inventing.

I've earned hundreds of billions of ISK inventing. I've never owned a T2 BPO, nor do I want to.

There is no T2 BPO monopoly.


However T2 BPOs are first at the trough leaving the rest of us to live off what they leave.

There's no reason for T2 BPOs to persist in the game. They are the Technetium of manufacturing. Out of date, overpowered, tainted with scandal. Anyone who had one has had plenty of time to exploit this asset. It's high time they were removed and a fairer more level playing field brought into being for Eve industrialists.



can you please back up your arguments. as im new here and don't get why T2 bpos are an issue

OMG when can i get a pic here

Haulie Berry
#87 - 2013-10-27 20:32:49 UTC
Smoking Blunts wrote:


can you please back up your arguments. as im new here and don't get why T2 bpos are an issue


He can't. His "argument" is that he hopes repeating something enough times will magically make it become true.
Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2013-10-27 21:06:23 UTC
Callduron wrote:
Anyone who had one has had plenty of time to exploit this asset.


Except that the BPOs are bought and sold regularly. I'd be surprised if many are still owned by the people who got them in the lottery. So no, it cannot be held true that any owner of a T2 BPO has even made back what they paid for it.
Callduron
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#89 - 2013-10-31 05:21:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Callduron
Smoking Blunts wrote:
Callduron wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Alice Loreley wrote:
Let's discuss

You must be new to manufacturing, as you are completely wrong, or another Brewlar Kuvakei alt.

T2 BPOs do not control the markets of any decent volume items worth inventing. T2 BPOs do rule the markets of low volume items not worth inventing.

I've earned hundreds of billions of ISK inventing. I've never owned a T2 BPO, nor do I want to.

There is no T2 BPO monopoly.


However T2 BPOs are first at the trough leaving the rest of us to live off what they leave.

There's no reason for T2 BPOs to persist in the game. They are the Technetium of manufacturing. Out of date, overpowered, tainted with scandal. Anyone who had one has had plenty of time to exploit this asset. It's high time they were removed and a fairer more level playing field brought into being for Eve industrialists.



can you please back up your arguments. as im new here and don't get why T2 bpos are an issue


T2 bpos were available to players years ago through a lottery system based on Research Agents. Instead of getting datacores you got a small chance to win a BPO. They were intended to be rare.

When the system was changed to invention T2 bpcs became much more accessible. Anyone, with a little skills training, can now do T2 manufacture.

However the blueprints in the new system are weaker that the blueprints of the old. -4 PE -4 ME and copies not originals. The BPOs can of course be researched to be more efficient.

It makes no sense that there are better scientific blueprints. It's not immersive - have New Eden scientists become dumber and thus incapable of making these super-blueprints? It makes no game balance sense - do old rich players need a crutch to help them keep up with upcoming new players?

Ships and weapons that are superceded get removed or nerfed. You can no longer deploy mines or AOE doomsdays. So why should the class of 06 have better industrial ability than players who started in later years just because they happened to be playing at that time?

It also distorts the economy. A T2 BPO will always dominate the production of that item increasing the risk for inventors. This is because it has better ME and PE which means they cost less to make per item. It also waives the requirement to spend materials on inventing which is an additional cost saving. Suppose an item sells 200 units per day, 100 of which are produced by T2 BPO holders. If the item sees a slump in demand, say to 120, we will see 100 items supplied by BPO holders and inventors will lose 80% of their trading volume. Thus it magnifies risk for inventors by ring-fencing some portion of the custom leaving a smaller market share available for inventors.

Haulie Berry wrote:


He can't. His "argument" is that he hopes repeating something enough times will magically make it become true.



Well don't you look silly.

I write http://stabbedup.blogspot.co.uk/

I post on reddit as /u/callduron.

Mai Shigemi
Doomheim
#90 - 2013-10-31 07:01:32 UTC
Callduron wrote:

Ships and weapons that are superceded get removed or nerfed. You can no longer deploy mines or AOE doomsdays. So why should the class of 06 have better industrial ability than players who started in later years just because they happened to be playing at that time?


Good observation. Maybe there's a reason why T2 BPOs haven't been remove from circulation. Only thing I can think of is the accepted tradeoff with the marginal market distortion effect and some other property.

What comes to the other property, I don't know. The T2 BPO ridiculous prices makes them not a valid investment even in a long run.

But if BPO keeps its value and withstands inflation, it's a good investment for a lazy investor who want some marginal return. In a sense, T2 BPO is like gold; it has real value, but the value is in the fact that people value it.

But the fact remains, if somebody set up us the many BPOs for free, some party has an unfair advantage over other players. But so has the t3 instalock gate camp over a basic ratter wandering off his safe route. (But does he have a cyno?)

Callduron wrote:

It also distorts the economy. A T2 BPO will always dominate the production of that item increasing the risk for inventors. This is because it has better ME and PE which means they cost less to make per item. It also waives the requirement to spend materials on inventing which is an additional cost saving. Suppose an item sells 200 units per day, 100 of which are produced by T2 BPO holders. If the item sees a slump in demand, say to 120, we will see 100 items supplied by BPO holders and inventors will lose 80% of their trading volume. Thus it magnifies risk for inventors by ring-fencing some portion of the custom leaving a smaller market share available for inventors.


The economy distortion is quite relative; in some items, definitely yes. Overall? Not really. Or at least you can't observe such an effect in general. There are other factors in play, which affects the profit margins way more than T2 BPO holders.

The only real advantage the T2 BPO owners have is the value in the print itself. I would argue the other effects these parties pose are marginal at best.

/Mai
Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#91 - 2013-10-31 08:36:30 UTC
Callduron wrote:
Suppose an item sells 200 units per day, 100 of which are produced by T2 BPO holders. If the item sees a slump in demand, say to 120, we will see 100 items supplied by BPO holders and inventors will lose 80% of their trading volume. Thus it magnifies risk for inventors by ring-fencing some portion of the custom leaving a smaller market share available for inventors.


For inventors it's very easy to change markets. Railguns not selling well this month, then invent, build and sell lasers (or whatever is selling well). That's something that a T2 BPO holder can't do. If the item their BPO makes doesn't sell, then they have a rather expensive piece of paper.
If someone were to research a market before starting in on it and see that there's very low turnover (200 items total a day for example), then a smart person wouldn't enter that market at all. Leave it for the BPO holders and the people who don't do market research.

Quote:
So why should the class of 06 have better industrial ability than players who started in later years just because they happened to be playing at that time?


T2 BPOs aren't limited to the class of 06 and earlier. They're tradable and are regularly traded. If they have such huge advantages, why don't you buy a couple and exploit that advantage yourself?
Ginger Barbarella
#92 - 2013-10-31 21:54:25 UTC
Elena Thiesant wrote:
T2 BPOs aren't limited to the class of 06 and earlier. They're tradable and are regularly traded. If they have such huge advantages, why don't you buy a couple and exploit that advantage yourself?


It's the original Brewlar argument: he can't or won't spend the money to buy AND THEN DESTROY them himself, so he insists on CCP waving their nerf bat and destroying them en masse. Using a simple argument like "then buy them and destroy them" woni't work on this crowd, because they refuse to do what it takes to achieve their goal. They want an Easy Button; they want it handed to them.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#93 - 2013-11-01 00:14:09 UTC
Callduron wrote:


T2 bpos were available to players years ago through a lottery system based on Research Agents. Instead of getting datacores you got a small chance to win a BPO. They were intended to be rare.

When the system was changed to invention T2 bpcs became much more accessible. Anyone, with a little skills training, can now do T2 manufacture.

However the blueprints in the new system are weaker that the blueprints of the old. -4 PE -4 ME and copies not originals. The BPOs can of course be researched to be more efficient.


These changes insured manufacuring by T2 BPO's is much more efficient than manufacturing by Invention. The result is T2 BPO's, which were already valuable, suddenly became extraordinarily valuable. They are not only rare legacy items of limited supply, but many of them are isk-printing machines when put to full use.

Callduron wrote:

It makes no sense that there are better scientific blueprints. It's not immersive - have New Eden scientists become dumber and thus incapable of making these super-blueprints? It makes no game balance sense - do old rich players need a crutch to help them keep up with upcoming new players?


Whining about lost technology here, right before you point out additional nerfs to technology in the following paragraph is silly. Frankly, EvE's content is not centered on it's amazing storyline. Content in EvE is player created by the conflicts and interactions of players. In other words, when your playing an immortal pilot flying through the stars, you have no right to ***** about realism. Especially when "reasonable explanations" can be conjured up by any daydreaming fanfick writer.

Callduron wrote:

Ships and weapons that are superceded get removed or nerfed. You can no longer deploy mines or AOE doomsdays. So why should the class of 06 have better industrial ability than players who started in later years just because they happened to be playing at that time?


Why does class of '09 have access to a Zephyr?
Why does class of '10 have access to a Primae
Why does class of '11 have access to an Echelon?

Many unique items exist in this game, and access to them came about from being in the right place, at the right time. From being lucky to playing smart. These items often give in-game advantages, are sometimes valued at extraordinary amounts of isk, and so on.

Finally, both doomsdays and mines were changed, not removed from the game. They were changed to bring game play balance to areas of the game that were escalating into very unbalanced situations.

Realize, when CCP removed the T2 BPO lottery and instituted invention, they had a very difficult choice:
Option 1: Keep T2 BPO's in the game, leaving legacy items of extreme value. This was potentially unfair to anyone playing the game at that time. The lucky BPO holders become more secure in the position, as they hold golden tickets they could exploit. At the same time, these players were already "lucky". Furthermore, anyone with lots of energy invested in attempting to win a lottery loses out on ever winning a prized possession.

Option 2: Remove T2 BPO's from the game. This had the potential of severely disrupting the t2 economy. It was also unfair to the lucky winners of T2 BPO's, as they put time and energy into the game to secure their lottery tickets.

The fact is, CCP went with Option 1, and I'm sure many players at that time felt it was unfair the could never win a T2 BPO. Realize though, this was many, many, many years ago. The game survived, players accepted the change, and the game has evolved. At this point in time, current T2 BPO holders are no longer the "lucky ticket holders" of a bygone era. They are investors and collectors that have spent years of effort to acquire their precious prizes, often at ridiculous costs to ascertain. At this point, the existence of T2 BPO's generally a moot point. Yes, there are certain markets that they hold a large sway over, namely low volume T2 Items. Invention Producers will lose to BPO producers when competing in these markets, but so what. The end user gets the item cheaper because the T2 BPO holder exists, and the careless inventor loses some isk. IMO, that is simply a win-win scenario!

Callduron wrote:

It also distorts the economy. A T2 BPO will always dominate the production of that item increasing the risk for inventors. This is because it has better ME and PE which means they cost less to make per item. It also waives the requirement to spend materials on inventing which is an additional cost saving. Suppose an item sells 200 units per day, 100 of which are produced by T2 BPO holders. If the item sees a slump in demand, say to 120, we will see 100 items supplied by BPO holders and inventors will lose 80% of their trading volume. Thus it magnifies risk for inventors by ring-fencing some portion of the custom leaving a smaller market share available for inventors.


So? Seriously... so what? Why is this an issue?
Jdestars
Stars Research systems Incorporation
#94 - 2013-11-04 15:28:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Jdestars
Alice Loreley wrote:
Many things in our beloved EVE are just amazing, some others are not good at all and some - absolutely disgusting. EVE is more then 10 years old MMO with magnificent potential and now i see clearly how the CCP is going to realise all of this potential. Only one thing isn't good at all - rarity of t2 bpo's.
Few lucky guys in the galaxy have them. Few people are able to rule the entire t2 market. Is that right? Invention does not have any sense to make some profit, it's just useless, because your potential loss is terribly huge.
Let's take a look - part of community using t2 equipment is very close in numbers to entire game population. Many characters are skilled enough to use t2 modules and they buy this equipment as soon as they reach the trading hub.

But the number of industrialists able to produce t2 equipment without significant losses is very-very low. And the invention system of present time just kills any hope to success. And as the final blow - you're just not able to withstand to someone who has a t2 bpo.

Some turns to solve this problem are obviously not good. But what if the solution is known for a long time? It's not so difficult to rise invention chances and replace ME & PE in t2 bpc from -4 to 0. And maybe it's not a bad idea to cut any t2 bpo's off the game at all.

Let's discuss






i think you are in wrong after introduction Invention price T2 decrease under product cost T2 base on BPO

so CCP introduce a new lottery system worth than older and inventor productor have not apply true statistique calculation of It and produce and sell at lost
if you calculat îto parameter or engaged isk during a large period with distribution curve of the binomial function .. you can see how recover the engaged isk .... and maybe the AS will be cost 50 or 100m/pc
maybe you dont know ... if you base you calculation of the limit to infinit for know the % chance sucessful bpo you are in wrong because :
Nb inv bymonth * 12 *10year = limited value much more near of 0 than infinity limits ...
check law of bernouilli , law binomial , ... and you major problems : http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradoxe_de_Saint-P%C3%A9tersbourg , cf probability risk-neutral and other subject on the web
.. yep you say Eve its a game ... yes but with Irl mathematical rules ...so blam CCP for invention system ,Blam other inventor with no irl Math skill as you wish
if you think that remove BPO change you case .. you wrong too

why productor with BPO T2 sell under Inventor productor ? stupid if they ajuste the price sell on inventor all gains
BPO T2 have limits of product item ( 100 pc for AS by Month ) and if you check inventor you see that it will be bite equal ...

you forget a point Trader havent the same rules of producter (inventor or not) , no take care about cost price

Old producter with bpo ( 2) which try to mainted hig price with this large stack of ship since 2006

Noted you can check the old forum http://oldforums.eveonline.com/default.asp? for same subject or read some doc like this http://www.maths-fi.com/malliavin/Modelisation_du_risque_de_credit_01_06_2004.pdf .. (apply to invent too ); if you have enough courage

and dont forget , each new play whose try to invent must be educate .... a whole without end , pray that Eve leader economic Team read this post ;)
Nolen Cadmar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#95 - 2013-11-04 16:42:30 UTC
I'd like to put my name down on the pro-T2 BPO side. Yes, I wish i had a T2 BPO, but they absolutely do NOT need to be removed. Almost all T2 items are profitable through the invention process. And not just a bit above break even, you can make LOADS of isk inventing as long as you pick the right items.

The people that won the T2 BPO's played years and years ago. Let them have their treasures. They played for 10 years, they deserve to have something better than what we do. Or for those that purchased T2 BPO's, they worked their ass off earning isk to purchase one. I believe that either of those people deserve to have their little bragging right. It's not preventing others from making money. Anyone that believe such is either trying to do invention the wrong way or is just jealous of those that have T2 BPO's and doesn't want to work to get one themselves.


I mean...T2 invention sucks, there's no way to make profit. Anyone looking to start, should look elsewhere b/c there's no money to be made. Curse you T2 BPO's! *shakes fist*

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Kolmogorow
Freedom Resources
#96 - 2013-11-05 01:20:54 UTC
A significant part of existing T2 BPOs is not being used at all because 1) the owners who won the BPO in the lottery are rich enough and totally bored with manufacturing and selling after so many years and 2) the owners who bought the BPOs bought them like a bottle expensive wine, not to drink it but just to store it in the cellar for one year and then sell it for twice the price, or as a collectors item to wallpaper their captain's quarter. The value increase over time of an assault frig BPO for example as just an asset that is lying in a hangar is so much higher than the money your could earn from it by manufacturing that it's not worth the hassle to actually use the BPO. And obviously, the people who spent 150 bil on a BPO don't care and don't have to care about "tied capital". If they would and they are smart enough, they wouldn't buy it and become inventors. There is no competition for inventors at all.
Jdestars
Stars Research systems Incorporation
#97 - 2013-11-05 08:32:13 UTC
Lors Dornick wrote:
I's say that there are three kinds of posters who claim that T2 BPOs makes it impossible to make a profit on invented T2 BPCs.

  • Trolls.
  • People who fail at market research and/or basic math.
  • People who are making money on invention and doesn't want the unwashed masses to interfere in their markets.


Hmm, wait a sec, I'm on my own list.

I've changed my mind.

There's absolutely no way to make a profit on invented T2 BPCs.


  • People who fail at market research and/or basic math. => Invention need more than basic math

  • Who lost :=>urge trader and productor (see the =0.01 isk war and volume of each bid )
  • who win : => trader only ( they dont care about cost price for product , just need volatility on exchange volume

  • dont forget the limits of trade and production its the capacity to regenerate the cashflow necessary of operation

    [*] my own bpo sleep too since two years, i dont want to delivers gift for trader with the sell stockpile at low price
    Smohq Anmirorz
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #98 - 2013-11-05 12:12:55 UTC
    Alice Loreley wrote:


    Let's discuss



    Again??

    ...

    Again?

    Let's discuss this blood-stained patch of ground that used to be a dead horse that was beat upon incessantly? You think we should discuss it.

    'Let's discuss'. Hah!