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Inaccuracies in official materials regarding manufacturing are resulting in misunderstanding

Author
Velicitia
XS Tech
#41 - 2013-10-18 22:42:21 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:

The base waste on extra material is 0%.


If and only if it is not also used in the "Base" materials. That is, the "Extra Materials" Tritanium (for, e.g. a Thrasher) is subject to ME penalties, whereas "Construction Blocks" in a T2 ship are not.

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Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#42 - 2013-10-21 13:08:38 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:

The base waste on extra material is 0%.


If and only if it is not also used in the "Base" materials. That is, the "Extra Materials" Tritanium (for, e.g. a Thrasher) is subject to ME penalties, whereas "Construction Blocks" in a T2 ship are not.

Uhh, are you sure about this?
I'm at work so don't have access to my client, but I'm pretty sure extra materials are always 0 waste, regardless of whether they are a duplicate.

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BoBoZoBo
MGroup9
#43 - 2013-10-21 16:59:25 UTC  |  Edited by: BoBoZoBo
This should be filed under "Complicated solutions to easy problems."

I can see what you are saying technically. but honestly. in ten years of producing intertube space thingies, it has never been confusing and has never interrupted the way profit/loss is calculated when determining what to build and sell.


The only confusing thing is the new split between materials and "extra materials" That is just full ******.

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Angeal MacNova
Holefood Inc.
Warriors of the Blood God
#44 - 2013-10-21 17:41:36 UTC
I could be lacking in understanding but...

Your silo example is an incorrect analogy. Corn is used to fill a silo, not make one. Now, if mining caused a % of the ore mined per cycle to become 'lost' and there was a skill that reduced this % (improving harvest proficiency) then this would be on par with the 10% of the corn harvested going to waste as it is becoming 'lost' (missed or destroyed by the harvester).

It's more like building a house. You have your 2x4s, 4x4s, dry wall, shingles, siding, flooring, ect. etc. Due to the size and shape of these items, you'll be trimming and cutting and at the end you will have a waste bin full of 'left overs'. That is production waste and it is a factor that needs to be considered before you begin. A skilled person will make better use of the materials and will result in having less waste.

Even when it comes to smelting. Take iron for example. You put the iron rich material into the smelter and you drain off the iron. What's left behind is the slag. How much iron is left behind in that slag depends on the person and equipment.

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Embargo.
#45 - 2013-10-21 18:32:46 UTC
I think instead of wanting my kids to learn math and economics from an old person who doesn't care about anything and has a job locked in regardless of performance I'm going to have them start playing EvE at around 10 y/o.

By the time they are 18 they will have an entire constellation or perhaps even a region under their control.

...sniff...

I'd be so proud.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#46 - 2013-10-21 19:05:22 UTC
Karrin Rawlter wrote:
Perhaps it makes sense to you only now that you have been playing the game for some months.
No, it makes sense because we've learned the mechanics.

Quote:
The thing is a factor is always supposed to be multiplied. So when EvE presents you with a factor of .10, and a bill of materials, those things should interact via some multiplication, either of the base or bill of materials. But the practical consequence of wastage factor is not to multiply the base by 0.10, or the bill by 0.90, but to multiply base by 1.10.
This relationship is not evident to rookies who look at the blueprint.
The relationship is also not particularly relevant unless you intend to create your own research calculator. A rookie doesn't need to do that — s/he just has to look at the blueprint and/or download any of the bajillion blueprint tools available. If there is a deeper interest, s/he can do what everyone else has done and research the mechanics, and as others have mentioned, this ×1.1 is hardly “secret” since that's what +10% means and since that's how wastage works in many real processes as well.

Quote:
Most rookies I've talked to thought that you multiplied something by the wastage factor (you don't)
Yes you do. You multiply your production requirements by it to get the amount of materials that will just go to waste.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#47 - 2013-10-22 01:03:31 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:

The base waste on extra material is 0%.


If and only if it is not also used in the "Base" materials. That is, the "Extra Materials" Tritanium (for, e.g. a Thrasher) is subject to ME penalties, whereas "Construction Blocks" in a T2 ship are not.

Uhh, are you sure about this?
I'm at work so don't have access to my client, but I'm pretty sure extra materials are always 0 waste, regardless of whether they are a duplicate.



ME waste doesn't apply to extra materials.


Production Efficiency waste, on the other hand, does, if they're also in the base materials.

How am I sure? Because the numbers add up correctly (i.e. to what is actually used) when you calculate using this.

Unfortunately, there's a display bug which shoves all the waste against the base materials. But if you look at the totals, they work out.

Woo! CSM XI!

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Johan Civire
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#48 - 2013-10-22 01:50:07 UTC
Going in and left confuse. I only know how to warp and press the F1 bottom..... This is way above my pay gray....
Zifrian
The Frog Pond
Ribbit.
#49 - 2013-10-31 21:56:12 UTC
I have no idea what the hell this thread was about....semantics?

Jesus, who gives a ****? I've got a list as long as my leg that make industry a huge pain inthe ass for everyone that's a whole lot worse than being confused about what wastage factor means.

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Mac Munoz
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2013-10-31 23:17:01 UTC
OP's rant/melt down on page 2 was one of the better things I have read on the internet all week. I can relate to the feeling.
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