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Nullsec Moon-Goo Distribution
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Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#21 - 2013-10-30 17:34:54 UTC
Himnos Altar wrote:
Disclaimer: I have not done the math to see how much this thing will cost

This all holds true. UNTIL during a Sov/coalition war breaks out, and the two sides offensively drop siphons on every single tower the other side has. These units have the capability of weakening alliance finances during a war. It may not be enough to be a major factor on its own, but it may have an effect on morale if SR programs lose a little steam.

Granted, I may be over thinking this.

But let me give you another option--during an offensive siphon offensive, there isn't just 1 siphon placed per moon mining tower. It's more in the order of 5-6. That would effectively shut out a day's worth of mining, and if they were succesfully picked up full by the offensive siphoners, there would be more than enough ISK to pay for another round of siphons. This would probably be run by black ops type ships with black ops cynos, at a guess.

Siphon bomber fleet roams?

This is good in many respects--it gives Alliances all new ways to wage war, and it forces alliances to actually patrol their space. These patrols can be jumped, adding to small gang warfare.

You COULD try patrolling in massive fleet fight blobs, but that couldn't last for long.


This also makes AFK? Cloakers a bigger threat.

Are they AFK Cloaking, or are they AFK Siphon Cloakers?
The part you miss though is as I put above. A single battleship could clear all the siphons, and the guns would keep anyone else at bay. You would need a larger fleet to defend your siphons than the sov holder would need to defend the POS.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
E-2C Hawkeye
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#22 - 2013-10-30 17:35:29 UTC
Xen Solarus wrote:
Lots of people have been discussing the potential threat of the new Siphon units, in particular to small corps mining moons in lowsec. It might well be that this could be the case. But i'm interested in using them for what CCP is hinting at, stealing stuff directly from the Alliances! Cool As a member of a wormhole corp, access to random areas of null sec are fairly common.

With that in mind, i've come to realise my knowledge of the distribution of the various nullsec moons is extremely limited. They've dominated the valuable moons for a long time now, and such information can be found realitively easily with good old google. But, thats hardly helpful when i'm exiting a wormhole into a completely random corner of the universe.

So, does any enterprising capsuleer have a flashy graphic map that clearly displays the locations of the Alliances main moons? Also, do they tend to be grouped together in populated areas, or seperate and isolated (or both!). A general feel of how Alliances protect their moon-mining POS' is what i'm trying to get at here.

And finally, how does someone actually steal something from a POS considering the siphon needs to be 50km from the POS, well within the range of the guns? Any significant attack on the POS itself is likely to draw the attention of the local Alliance pretty damn fast, and everyone knows those damn ****-stars can be a right pain in the arse. Shocked

Regardless, i think they're going to be alot of fun!

It was my understanding that your name will be on the siphon, which will make it useless for stealing from your alliance/corp.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#23 - 2013-10-30 17:35:58 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Xen Solarus wrote:
Well, depends, remember they aren't targeted by the guns automatically, requires someone manning them to do that. So you could feasibly sweep through an area and deploy them on selected targets. You can deploy more than one remember, slapping up 10 would increase the amount you're stealing immensely. Assuming i'm hitting a moon-goo POS pretty close to my wormhole exit, getting the goods back to market would be a piece of cake!

But, i'm admitting my biggest obstacle is my lack of available knowledge regarding null sec moon-goo operations. I'm assuming they're not particularly time intensive processes that require alot of constant hands-on attention. They're setup to run, and people come back when needed. Does this mean they'd be more vulnerable to this sort of hit and run steal attack?

But don't forget, each one has to be deployed for 4 hours to break even. And during that time, you can't stop someone shooting them or stealing from them. So say you put it on my POS, I turn up, empty it and start shooting it down. What will you do?
Sure, you could shoot me, in full view of the POS guns. That would be pretty hilarious.
Remember, the POS gun's don't automatically shoot your siphon, but if I'm on grid in a mega, grinding your siphons down, best of luck dropping me before the POS drops you.

You didn't train to pos gun I see..

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Xen Solarus
Furious Destruction and Salvage
#24 - 2013-10-30 18:02:52 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:

But don't forget, each one has to be deployed for 4 hours to break even. And during that time, you can't stop someone shooting them or stealing from them.


They're going to be around 10mill a piece. Not exactly mega expensive. I plan to get a blueprint and just mass-produce them. I've always been one of the "minerals are free" crowd. Big smile At that sorta price, i'd literally crap them out around null sec POS' just for lolz. Getting profit would be secondary! Cool

Becides, my idea would be to not hang around. You locate moon harvesting POS, slap out a bunch of siphons and move on to another system. Keep on going, finding more, marking them, slapping them out, moving on. You could swing back later and see how many made it, and how many didn't. I can see it being alot of fun, and a right pain for null sec Alliances. Most of null sec is empty anyway!

As i've said, the main issue is information. Information is power! Knowing where the best moon goo is located in new eden would go a long way to helping people looking to stick it to the Alliances.

ElQuirko wrote:

OP: Moon maps are very easy to get your hands on. Get any alt inside any corp of any major alliance and go to "alliance bulletins". Most will have one up. Same for JB networks, POS placement...


This is exactly the sorta thing i'd be looking for. Surely if the information is so readily available it would have been leaked outside by now people that had left or been kicked etc?

Post with your main, like a BOSS!

And no, i don't live in highsec.  As if that would make your opinion any less wrong.  
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#25 - 2013-10-30 18:53:05 UTC
There are a few things you just don't talk about in an alliance. First is where your supercaps are. Second is where your good moons are. There will be only a handful of people in an alliance who have this information, and they sure as hell won't share it with the general public.

What might happen though is someone sharing the location of their enemy's moons, to try to crowdsource the siphoning.
Himnos Altar
An Errant Venture
#26 - 2013-10-30 19:10:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Himnos Altar
Lucas Kell wrote:
Himnos Altar wrote:
Disclaimer: I have not done the math to see how much this thing will cost

This all holds true. UNTIL during a Sov/coalition war breaks out, and the two sides offensively drop siphons on every single tower the other side has. These units have the capability of weakening alliance finances during a war. It may not be enough to be a major factor on its own, but it may have an effect on morale if SR programs lose a little steam.

Granted, I may be over thinking this.

But let me give you another option--during an offensive siphon offensive, there isn't just 1 siphon placed per moon mining tower. It's more in the order of 5-6. That would effectively shut out a day's worth of mining, and if they were succesfully picked up full by the offensive siphoners, there would be more than enough ISK to pay for another round of siphons. This would probably be run by black ops type ships with black ops cynos, at a guess.

Siphon bomber fleet roams?

This is good in many respects--it gives Alliances all new ways to wage war, and it forces alliances to actually patrol their space. These patrols can be jumped, adding to small gang warfare.

You COULD try patrolling in massive fleet fight blobs, but that couldn't last for long.


This also makes AFK? Cloakers a bigger threat.

Are they AFK Cloaking, or are they AFK Siphon Cloakers?
The part you miss though is as I put above. A single battleship could clear all the siphons, and the guns would keep anyone else at bay. You would need a larger fleet to defend your siphons than the sov holder would need to defend the POS.



A single Battleship *COULD* clear all the siphons, if they know that they're there. Again, this would require an actual patrol to see if there *are* any siphons. And during a time when the Alliance is deployed elsewhere (say, a sov fight, or lolwar), this might be a matter of minutes, hours, or days. This would also take time and manpower from the offensive front, or ratting/mining. I wonder if the average/line pilot Nuller would even be thinking about siphons at all.

Also, if you drop siphons during their off-peak hours when there's almost nobody on, it's conceivable that you could get a full siphon cycle (4 hours). And since the siphon actually stays until it's destroyed, you can keep emptying the siphon as many times as you want, until either you or the siphon is destroyed.

Again, I'm not disputing that *if* the Alliance is keeping a close eye out, they can easily clear siphons, it's a matter of if the Alliance is keeping an eye out for siphons in the 4 hour period during which a particular Siphon (or group of Siphons) does their work.

If an Alliance has multiple reactions/moon miners in a system, it would take significantly less than an hour for a cloaky ship to deploy multiple siphons. And with a no-bubble T3, covert Cynos, it would be very hard to catch this phantom siphon fleet. I'm basing this on what's-his-face's presentation at EVE Vegas about how he rats with 2x Sins (IIRC),Covert bubble-proof T3.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#27 - 2013-10-30 19:21:46 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
What might happen though is someone sharing the location of their enemy's moons, to try to crowdsource the siphoning.

ever wanted to hear about pandemic legion lowsec moons

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#28 - 2013-10-30 19:43:22 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
What might happen though is someone sharing the location of their enemy's moons, to try to crowdsource the siphoning.

ever wanted to hear about pandemic legion lowsec moons

They're on the list. Cool
Xen Solarus
Furious Destruction and Salvage
#29 - 2013-10-31 01:51:16 UTC
There's currently nothing concrete on if Corps/Alliances will recieve automated messages when a siphon is working on one of their POS (tho it i doubt they will, as it would make them very easy to remove). This would boost your chances of success considerably, considering the amount of moons out their extracting Goo with minimum supervision. Can you see nullsec Alliances checking each and every moon-goo POS every 4 hours?

Further confirmation regarding this from CCP would be nice!

Post with your main, like a BOSS!

And no, i don't live in highsec.  As if that would make your opinion any less wrong.  
destiny2
Decaying Rocky Odious Non Evil Stupid Inane Nobody
Rogue Drone Recovery Syndicate
#30 - 2013-10-31 01:56:04 UTC
just means more null moon towers will be better dickstars Shocked
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#31 - 2013-10-31 02:04:23 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
But don't forget, each one has to be deployed for 4 hours to break even. And during that time, you can't stop someone shooting them or stealing from them.


Four hours of accumulated time.

If I deploy the siphon, leave it for a few cycles, then retrieve it and cloak up, then repeat this over and over again, I only need to get 4 hours of siphoning time to pay for the siphon. After that it's pure profit.

So what if I was to monitor intel channels, keep an eye on local, etc, and simply decloak & scoop the siphon any time a red enters system, then decloak & redeploy any time the system is empty?

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Xen Solarus
Furious Destruction and Salvage
#32 - 2013-10-31 02:08:22 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
But don't forget, each one has to be deployed for 4 hours to break even. And during that time, you can't stop someone shooting them or stealing from them.


Four hours of accumulated time.

If I deploy the siphon, leave it for a few cycles, then retrieve it and cloak up, then repeat this over and over again, I only need to get 4 hours of siphoning time to pay for the siphon. After that it's pure profit.

So what if I was to monitor intel channels, keep an eye on local, etc, and simply decloak & scoop the siphon any time a red enters system, then decloak & redeploy any time the system is empty?


No, once they're deployed they can't be rescooped again.

Post with your main, like a BOSS!

And no, i don't live in highsec.  As if that would make your opinion any less wrong.  
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#33 - 2013-10-31 08:07:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdiel Kavash
Xen Solarus wrote:
There's currently nothing concrete on if Corps/Alliances will recieve automated messages when a siphon is working on one of their POS (tho it i doubt they will, as it would make them very easy to remove). This would boost your chances of success considerably, considering the amount of moons out their extracting Goo with minimum supervision. Can you see nullsec Alliances checking each and every moon-goo POS every 4 hours?

Further confirmation regarding this from CCP would be nice!


Quoting someone who knows what nullsec is about:

CCP Greyscale wrote:
  • Shooting at stationary structures is boring
  • Having to spend significant amounts of effort defeating an enemy which isn't even fighting back is really boring
  • Waking up every morning and having to clean up the mess made while you were asleep is boring
  • Making something tedious will not stop players doing it if it's very clearly the best option. They'll do it, and they'll hate it
Marexlovox
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2013-10-31 08:21:14 UTC
I think every expansion the moon goo should be scrambled (meaning switching the moons around). Why not, would make the universe a better place. Pirate
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2013-10-31 08:23:26 UTC
Marexlovox wrote:
I think every expansion the moon goo should be scrambled (meaning switching the moons around). Why not, would make the universe a better place. Pirate



You wouldn't say that if you had ever moon scanned, that crap is soul crushing
Marexlovox
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2013-10-31 08:26:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Marexlovox
Onictus wrote:
Marexlovox wrote:
I think every expansion the moon goo should be scrambled (meaning switching the moons around). Why not, would make the universe a better place. Pirate



You wouldn't say that if you had ever moon scanned, that crap is soul crushing


Well its always the same power blocks owning all the good moons because they know where they are at, and given the fact CFC has 35k member shouldn't take long to rescan moons, that a lot of cov ops at work, and yes I have scanned moons, doesn't take long for one system.
Xen Solarus
Furious Destruction and Salvage
#37 - 2013-10-31 08:54:15 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:


Quoting someone who knows what nullsec is about:

CCP Greyscale wrote:
  • Shooting at stationary structures is boring
  • Having to spend significant amounts of effort defeating an enemy which isn't even fighting back is really boring
  • Waking up every morning and having to clean up the mess made while you were asleep is boring
  • Making something tedious will not stop players doing it if it's very clearly the best option. They'll do it, and they'll hate it


Ah so i might get to steal null sec Alliances moon goo, but in the attempt to do so i also get to slowly crush their will?

Sounds delicious! Cool

Post with your main, like a BOSS!

And no, i don't live in highsec.  As if that would make your opinion any less wrong.  
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2013-10-31 09:07:28 UTC
Marexlovox wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Marexlovox wrote:
I think every expansion the moon goo should be scrambled (meaning switching the moons around). Why not, would make the universe a better place. Pirate



You wouldn't say that if you had ever moon scanned, that crap is soul crushing


Well its always the same power blocks owning all the good moons because they know where they are at, and given the fact CFC has 35k member shouldn't take long to rescan moons, that a lot of cov ops at work, and yes I have scanned moons, doesn't take long for one system.


Yeah and those moons are on our space poor in low.

Yeah ok, when one system has 69 moons in it.

Didn't take long at allRoll
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#39 - 2013-10-31 09:45:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Tauranon
Mara Rinn wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
But don't forget, each one has to be deployed for 4 hours to break even. And during that time, you can't stop someone shooting them or stealing from them.


Four hours of accumulated time.

If I deploy the siphon, leave it for a few cycles, then retrieve it and cloak up, then repeat this over and over again, I only need to get 4 hours of siphoning time to pay for the siphon. After that it's pure profit.

So what if I was to monitor intel channels, keep an eye on local, etc, and simply decloak & scoop the siphon any time a red enters system, then decloak & redeploy any time the system is empty?


You can't scoop the siphon. Also in highsec, my opportunity cost for 4 hours is 280 million isk (haven't bothered working it out in Vale since Vale is more fun I don't care right now).

Whether siphoning is more fun than 280m isk is yet to be seen.

but they are 20m3, what I suspect you are hoping for is the magic day where you dump 40 on a route, and then the even more magic tomorrow when you go back past and most of the 40 are still there, and you spend all day hauling goo to your drop off. Or even better you don't bother to do the dump of the siphons, someone else does, and you go past an hour before they log back on...

In other news, since they don't work on reaction chains, bleargh, no "mmmmmmonster kill" in 1 system siphoning 20 towers.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#40 - 2013-10-31 10:31:21 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Xen Solarus wrote:
Well, depends, remember they aren't targeted by the guns automatically, requires someone manning them to do that. So you could feasibly sweep through an area and deploy them on selected targets. You can deploy more than one remember, slapping up 10 would increase the amount you're stealing immensely. Assuming i'm hitting a moon-goo POS pretty close to my wormhole exit, getting the goods back to market would be a piece of cake!

But, i'm admitting my biggest obstacle is my lack of available knowledge regarding null sec moon-goo operations. I'm assuming they're not particularly time intensive processes that require alot of constant hands-on attention. They're setup to run, and people come back when needed. Does this mean they'd be more vulnerable to this sort of hit and run steal attack?

But don't forget, each one has to be deployed for 4 hours to break even. And during that time, you can't stop someone shooting them or stealing from them. So say you put it on my POS, I turn up, empty it and start shooting it down. What will you do?
Sure, you could shoot me, in full view of the POS guns. That would be pretty hilarious.
Remember, the POS gun's don't automatically shoot your siphon, but if I'm on grid in a mega, grinding your siphons down, best of luck dropping me before the POS drops you.

You didn't train to pos gun I see..
Well that assumes the responder has the permissions to use them. It's more likely to be a random blue finding it.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.