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[Request] Review of possible New Order EULA Breach

First post
Author
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#121 - 2013-10-30 19:26:44 UTC
oOReikaOo Michiko wrote:
No one even reads the post do they.. they just skim the damn thing and then start reading the comments... ridiculous.

Oh and trust me the last thing i'd like is to have to deal with seeing that flag lit up every day knowing someone else is back on my thread without even thinking it through just to insult me. You may feel im wrong, but not everyone does, unfortunately Im the only one willing to stick my neck out for it. CCP isnt ********, they get 100's of support tickets about this kind of stuff a day, they didn't send me here to be trolled they sent me here to be a focal point for that frustration, but sadly I cant convince people to support me in open against people like the CFO of the CFC, EVEN YOU GIZZNIT, im dissapointed that someone who met me personally would think for a second I give a **** about attention from people in a video game.

Im going to keep this thread up , keep responding, and keep pushing the issue. Feel free to continue to troll my thread with the only basis that this is a game. Eventually people will stop hiding behind like button and secret personal in game chats and stick up to people who think that just because they play a game it gives them a right to act like the bottom of the barrel.

And oh btw GM Riven , you suck , told you it would be a **** storm. I told you I didn't trust the CSM , and I hope you can see why now.


I'm sorry you feel personally slighted by me, perhaps I didn't elaborate clearly:

Gizznitt wrote:
your trying to invoke cyber-bulling to get "attention", but you are way out of line.


I'm not implying you have some personal desire for attention, I'm saying you are employing the name of cyber-bulling to bring attention to the topic. To give an unrelated example that happened to me yesterday: A friend and I were discussing illegal immigration, and she brought up the recent gruesome murder of several children in NY by an illegal immigrant to emphasize criminal activity of illegal immigrants. The murder reference was simply a sensational approach to discussing the topic, just like cyberbullying is a sensational approach to discussing the actions of Erotica 1.

Really, take a step back and look at waht Erotica 1 has done, and keep the sensationalist stuff out of it. Then we can truly evaluate whether Erotica 1 has crossed the line:

a.) Protection Racket: Erotica & crew have "claimed" several systems as theirs. They run a protection racket to strong-arm isk out of any miner that wishes to utilize those systems. --- We could discuss the pro's and con's of this, but CCP generally gave it the thumbs up. Believe it or not, but the new order recently moved into my highsec industrial home and attempted to strong arm my alt that utilizes the system to casually mine, invent, and manufacture. It has been entertaining.....

b.) Scamming: Erotica & crew have scammed players out of "all their assets". I truly don't understand how you convince someone to hand over all their assets to another player in this game. That really just blows my mind, but it happens, and way more often than it should. --- We could discuss the pro's and con's of this, but CCP also gave scamming the thumbs up (as long as its not in the rookie channel).

c.) Humiliation: Erotica & crew have potentially shamed and/or humiliated another EvE player in a harmful manner. They recorded people "flipping out" on coms over their scamming & strong arming. They recorded people "singing" and willfully doing silly things in the hope of reclaiming scammed assets. Then they publicized these recordings for anyone & everyone to know. --- This is where you believe they have crossed the line, and this is where you need to address the pro's and con's of allowing this behavior.
Pro:
-- Provides humor to many EvE players.
-- Teaches, believe it or not. People learn from being humiliated, and other people learn from their public examples.
-- Provides content: This goes both ways, be it someone looking for the next laugh, or the humiliated looking for revenge.
-- Publicity: Word of mouth is the best form of publicity that exists, and humorous quips spread the fastest.

Cons:
-- Potentially results in players leaving the game. Ultimately, some people get so down trodden when scammed, humiliated, or faced with a conflict of interest they simply leave the game. That's unfortunate, but sometimes there isn't a solution that satisfies everyone.
-- Potentially causes people emotional damage. Some people, after experiencing something humiliated, look back and laugh. Some people get angry and goal driving. Some people do something stupid. Some people retain the hurt and truly are wouned from these experiences. To be honest though, this is a game, and anyone that is actually harmed from ingame activities really shouldn't be playing in the first place.

So the question is, where is the line on humiliation, and did Erotica cross it:
Did continue abusing someone showing signs of severe emotional distress (like threaten to commit suicide)?
Did they perform truly targeted harassment (as in the "victim" tried to move to a different area of space and they followed them system to system to poke at him, etc)?
Did they do something illegal (sexually explicit photos, RL asset scamming, RL harassment)?

I haven't seen any evidence they crossed any of these lines, and that's the crux of the argument.

p.s. You can turn off "notifications" by clicking "unsubscribe" on the top right of the forum thread.
Malcolm Shinhwa
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#122 - 2013-10-30 19:32:50 UTC
Well this is akward... I make a post refuting the "no one even reads the OP" and tthen CSM Mike Azariah posts and shows he didn't read the OP. She did file a petition Mike. The GMs apparently gave her some form of "working as intended. " when that didn't placate her they sent her to this forum. I'm also sure you can look forward to a lump of coal in your Christmas stocking from soundcloud for suggesting she take her fight to them.

[i]"The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental[/i]."

Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#123 - 2013-10-31 05:20:57 UTC
Actually I did read the edit at the end of the OP.

amazing, I know.

What I meant was to continue down that path, not here. I am not trying to shush or shutter debate, just that if it is a gameplay issue of harassment then this is not the place for it to be weighed.

Quote:
*edit* I'd like to state I started by first creating a support ticket about this issue, but was told I would have to bring this issue up through this channel.
-OP
Quote:
In this forum, any EVE player can raise an issue for debate.

The best and most supported of these issue threads are picked up by the CSM for debate. The issues that pass debate are bought to CCP, and if CCP consents, the issues get implemented into the game.
Assembly hall rules

Are we looking for debate on this, a common consensus on whether it is harassment or a single player asking for a ruling from CCP?

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)

oOReikaOo Michiko
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#124 - 2013-10-31 06:14:37 UTC
oOReikaOo Michiko wrote:
Zedrik Cayne wrote:
oOReikaOo Michiko wrote:
No one even reads the post do they.. they just skim the damn thing and then start reading the comments... ridiculous.

Oh and trust me the last thing i'd like is to have to deal with seeing that flag lit up every day knowing someone else is back on my thread without even thinking it through just to insult me. You may feel im wrong, but not everyone does, unfortunately Im the only one willing to stick my neck out for it. CCP isnt ********, they get 100's of support tickets about this kind of stuff a day, they didn't send me here to be trolled they sent me here to be a focal point for that frustration, but sadly I cant convince people to support me in open against people like the CFO of the CFC, EVEN YOU GIZZNIT, im dissapointed that someone who met me personally would think for a second I give a **** about attention from people in a video game.

Im going to keep this thread up , keep responding, and keep pushing the issue. Feel free to continue to troll my thread with the only basis that this is a game. Eventually people will stop hiding behind like button and secret personal in game chats and stick up to people who think that just because they play a game it gives them a right to act like the bottom of the barrel.

And oh btw GM Riven , you suck , told you it would be a **** storm. I told you I didn't trust the CSM , and I hope you can see why now.


I resent the implication that I did not read, and listen to, your original post.

The reason people aren't supporting you, is not because they are afraid of the CFC and something awful will happen to them, or because they are afraid of other reprisals by other groups or individuals. The reason is because you are just plain wrong. You aren't a focal point for the 'issue', if you are trying to be and this is the best focal point that can be mustered the planning committee for your cause needs to have a few more meetings. Maybe hire a consultant.

The activities certainly aren't nice, in fact they are downright cruel. But nobody is being forced to participate. Up and until CCP says 'Hey, guys..this isn't cool anymore. We now have rules in place to stop you from behaving badly. Accept the change to the rules or walk.' There is nothing wrong with it in so far as the terms of the game.

You are implying that the behavior is 'bottom of the barrel'. Does anyone go hungry because they lost their space possessions? Is anyone being denied basic human rights because their behavior has been spotlight? There are many forms of behavior that are reprehensible, that steal people's lives. None of which can happen in eve unless the victims are operating a RMT operation, and all those assets that were given away expecting to be doubled or tripled just happen to be their next paycheck.

Is that why you are so upset? Is this putting a crimp in your RMT bot empire or something through an alt?

Or are you trying to apply some sort of extra moral behavior on the activities of pilots in EvE. Just because we play a game, that has no rules against a behavior that we enjoy, means that we will indulge in that behavior. Not everyone will, but getting your bowels in a knot because someone does engage in it is about as useful as pissing on a nuclear reactor to cool it down.

You want to 'push the issue' be my guest. CCP pushed you here so you could air your grievance. Don't think they don't know what kind of reaction you would get. Hence my 'you got trolled by CCP' comment.

So, which is it? Are you just some errant knight tilting at windmills? Are you an RMT boss who lost a paycheck and are pissed? Are you the all-in-one troll? Or god forbid, do you actually believe the fountain of words you spew here and are riding a moral high horse?

Actually curious about how you see your role and your reasons for being in that role.


Yep, proposal dropped.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfSDNPFCPfY

Malcolm Shinhwa
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#125 - 2013-10-31 07:05:34 UTC
2013.10.30 02:59
oOReikaOo Michiko wrote:

Im going to keep this thread up , keep responding, and keep pushing the issue. Feel free to continue to troll my thread with the only basis that this is a game. Eventually people will stop hiding behind like button and secret personal in game chats and stick up to people who think that just because they play a game it gives them a right to act like the bottom of the barrel.


2013.10.30 14:30
oOReikaOo Michiko wrote:

Yep, proposal dropped.


So Space Moses you are not. I'm guessing with a stalwart ally such as yourself, if you had any supporters they are pretty darn glad they didn't back you.

[i]"The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental[/i]."

Zedrik Cayne
Standards and Practices
#126 - 2013-10-31 13:19:06 UTC
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:
2013.10.30 02:59
oOReikaOo Michiko wrote:

Im going to keep this thread up , keep responding, and keep pushing the issue. Feel free to continue to troll my thread with the only basis that this is a game. Eventually people will stop hiding behind like button and secret personal in game chats and stick up to people who think that just because they play a game it gives them a right to act like the bottom of the barrel.


2013.10.30 14:30
oOReikaOo Michiko wrote:

Yep, proposal dropped.


So Space Moses you are not. I'm guessing with a stalwart ally such as yourself, if you had any supporters they are pretty darn glad they didn't back you.


C'mon folks. The OP has dropped the issue, and should probably request the thread be locked. The horse has been beaten to death and at this point you're just making it harder to clean the remains off the sidewalk.

I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon

Dream Kim
Black Echelon
#127 - 2013-11-02 02:02:24 UTC
Zedrik Cayne wrote:
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:
2013.10.30 02:59
oOReikaOo Michiko wrote:

Im going to keep this thread up , keep responding, and keep pushing the issue. Feel free to continue to troll my thread with the only basis that this is a game. Eventually people will stop hiding behind like button and secret personal in game chats and stick up to people who think that just because they play a game it gives them a right to act like the bottom of the barrel.


2013.10.30 14:30
oOReikaOo Michiko wrote:

Yep, proposal dropped.


So Space Moses you are not. I'm guessing with a stalwart ally such as yourself, if you had any supporters they are pretty darn glad they didn't back you.


C'mon folks. The OP has dropped the issue, and should probably request the thread be locked. The horse has been beaten to death and at this point you're just making it harder to clean the remains off the sidewalk.


Just have the 50 cats do it.
Erotica 1
Krypteia Operations
#128 - 2013-11-03 10:12:31 UTC
This thread should remain open until the OP has received satisfaction from her next submission. There is no reason for us to start all over after she hears back.

See Bio for isk doubling rules. If you didn't read bio, chances are you funded those who did.

oOReikaOo Michiko
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#129 - 2013-11-03 12:21:38 UTC
There is no need. OP Request thread closed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfSDNPFCPfY

Lady Areola Fappington
#130 - 2013-11-03 14:37:46 UTC
I think she be mad at you, Erotica.

Also, just because it's locked, doesn't mean we can't link to it. I have a feeling this thread might be bookmarked by a few people, for future reference.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide

ElQuirko
Protus Correction Facility Inc.
#131 - 2013-11-04 12:24:37 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Edit: How do the cyberbulling laws in iceland work anyway? Roll

I believe the Icelandic constitution contains the doctrine of "HTFU".

Dodixie > Hek

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#132 - 2013-11-05 01:02:37 UTC
oOReikaOo Michiko wrote:
There is no need. OP Request thread closed


And while you're at it, ISDs, can we look into that IRL threat thing?

Because that's pretty despicable, especially from someone blathering about "cyber bullying".

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

AnJuan Jackson
Kraken Exploration and Janitorial Services
Tactical Supremacy
#133 - 2013-11-05 01:13:56 UTC
oOReikaOo Michiko wrote:
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
oOReikaOo Michiko wrote:


Specialist? Can you please explain.



The words speak for themselves. I am a specialist in cyberbullying.

Here, bullying, at it's core, required forced nonconsensual involvement in an enviroment. Schoolkids can be bullied, because they cannot remove themselves from school. Workplace bullying exists because it's quite difficult for someone to up and change a job. Cyberbullying exists only in that social media has become a huge part of today's life, and isn't something easy to escape from.


Ero 1's bonus rooms and singing are purely consensual. Nobody forces you to play Ero's game. You are not required to join the bonus round. Nobody is holding a gun to a person's head, forcing them to sing. You can walk away at any time.


You can start calling it "bullying", when CCP comes in and says "sing on ventrillo or lose your account". Till then, it's someone making a poor decision.


So you think just because we can quit EVE Online its not cyberbullying? Ridiculous.

"Bullying is the use of force, threat, or coercion to abuse, intimidate, or aggressively to impose domination over others. The behavior is often repeated and habitual. One essential prerequisite is the perception, by the bully or by others, of an imbalance of social or physical power. Behaviors used to assert such domination can include verbal harassment or threat, physical assault or coercion, and such acts may be directed repeatedly towards particular targets. Justifications and rationalizations for such behavior sometimes include differences of class, race, religion, gender, sexuality, appearance, behavior, or ability.[2][3] If bullying is done by a group, it is called mobbing.[4] The target of bullying is sometimes referred to as a "victim""

No where in this definition does it say "hey your not a victim if you can walk away". I am at work and my manager bullies me, but HEY its not bullying because I can quit my job!!! No your still being bullied, you should not have to quit your job , quit a game, or do ANYTHING because of another person. You are bullies.



Just going to point out, in any competitive environment, yes the option to walk away is valid.

Refusing to do so and subjecting yourself to loss, is not the other person's fault, but your own for acknowledging the risk and failing to mentally prepare yourself for the consequences.

EVE Online is a uncaring, beautiful monster. Any one moderately well adjusted in life can deal with its trials and tribulations without having to cry about "cyber bullying." Of which, I would say this is a stretch. When someone does something foolish and their picture is plastered over the internet, any attempt to try to get it taken down will just backlash into it spreading faster.

It's best to have a humble, well balanced response to these things. Evaluate if you can move past it and continue, or walk away.
As opposed to being so wracked by "How could this happen to me?" that they want a safety net to stop them from being so stupid next time.
Homem na Estrada
#134 - 2013-11-06 11:08:41 UTC
As a rule of thumb you can rule out harassment everytime you have a sine qua non clause demanding the active participation of the "victim".

Ganking is harassment, you dont ask to be ganked (some people beg to be, but it is not a condition sine qua non). Wardec is flamed by some as a form of CCP legal harassment tool, but you activelly open a corp, and wardec is something that comes with it.

If you are in an NPC corp, do not attack or seek revenge, do not open yourself to theft or any other action or inaction that in any way facilitate the act done to you, and you have no means to protect against it, then it is harassment.

ISK Doublers are scammers ALWAYS. Period. As is anything that offers something for nothing. Everytime you are offered something that isnt usually bringing something to the one offering, it is a sort of scam that if it is not you the victim, someone is.

People usually complain in the form of "I have this problem", "I have been a victim of this", and when you do this, you are just doing the same thing you are complaining about, which is someone that just bother when something is done wrong to them.

Barely no one come to the forums and talk about things that happen to everyone, or something they find out they can do and have an advantage. If someone find out that game mechanics allow you to force a person out of their ships and you take over, you will only see a post when a person is a victim of this. And the thing is, usually people will come with such a post and then tell "he said I should click eject or he would shoot me". LoL

C'mon people, make CCP spend time on something really important.

There are two powers: Power of Numbers and Power of Leadership They compensate or add to each other, but nothing compensates or add to having neither. Politics: If you dont use it, it will use you.