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Enough is Enough: Nerf Minmatar

Author
Julia Connor
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#381 - 2011-11-17 21:42:18 UTC
Nerfing ACs into the ground won't change ****. A new FOTM will be out in as little as 2 weeks. I'm already thinking of active vindis that can fit neutrons and 2 x-type large deadspace reppers at the same time after this patch comes out. That's 1500+ tank and 1600dps if you include a full set of ogre IIs plus a 90% web and tracking good enough to hit a logi orbiting at close range. I wish my maelstrom could pull this offRoll

P.S. I'm not sure if this fit will be possible after the patch but I guess so given that it is possible with a full rack of ions atm on TQ.
m0cking bird
Doomheim
#382 - 2011-11-17 23:06:09 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Break it down to the basics:

Amarr should be masters of medium range. Nice optimal. Poorer tracking up close.

Gallente should be masters of point blank combat. We'll see how they fare once the changes hit TQ.

Minmatar thread the needle between the two and are masters of neither. They can control the range though and either get under the Amarr's lasors or stay out of the range of blasters.

Now let's suppose for the sake of argument that the Gallente are once again masters of short range. Let's also suppose that they can now more easily close the gap with Amarr. Would people use them? High risk and do or die vs. the Winmatar platform that doesn't have to risk it all every time.

When Minmatar are out of wack the game notices alot more. When ships were going super fast in the nano age - Amarr medium range meant absolutely nothing. When the range of Minmatar ships got drastically increased - almost doubling in some cases - Gallente are completely shut out. In the old days that kiting window was 5km - 10km. You can make a mistake in that window. You can get caught. Not so much when your window is 20km+



No! The so called nano-nerf only made another nano-age. Gallente were being kited before. In fact, it has always been that way for awhile. Minmatar did control mid-range pvp, while still being able to be very viable close range. Amarr was long range but, still had the ability to engage close range. Gallente were not very dynamic to begin with. What hurt close range engagements alot more than the range control of most other races was a increase in the player base. More pilots, more fleets. Which made 1 v 1 situations less likely. Something that can only be compensated for by a solo pvper by skirmishing.

It's also the case that Minmatar did and are in Amarrr territory. Minmatar dominated medium and now are very effective long range. The area where Amarr should excel in. Amarr now barely excel there. Something I mentioned has happened when the changes were introduced and many Amarr pilots have suggested happened. Tracking enhancers increased auto-cannons viability alot more than CCP realised. See, they got something that is alot like having ships like a Brutix do 1000- 1500 damage per second. CCP increased Minmatar ships applied damage by many folds. Something like 30 - 40%. It's nice to be able to do 1500 damage per second on paper. If you're only able to apply half of that in game. That increase does not mean much. Minmatar changes increased Minmatars applied damage, which was alot better than a str8 damage boost. Applied damage being a result of projected damage, of course.


[Rupture, Break copy 1]
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II
Gyrostabilizer II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Warp Disruptor II
Stasis Webifier II

Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M

Medium Projectile Ambit Extension I
Medium Projectile Ambit Extension I
Medium Projectile Ambit Extension I


Warrior II x5


This was a example of what I was using before the changes to Tracking enhancers. I limited overall damage with this set-up, but increased overall velocity and damage projection. This is what I was using to engage multiple frigates in the past and now (4 - 7 mix assault frigates on average). I still use this over the shield Rupture when dealing with multiple frigates. Even though its overall velocity is low. I've also engaged and destroyed ships like a Vagabond in this set-up.

I was quickly able to know the difference between paper damage and actual applied damage with set-ups like this. This is why heavy missiles are superior to heavy assault missiles overall and why pulse lasers are still superior to auto-cannons.

This is how i compensated for the large difference in Gallente damage and tank (Vexor more than Thorax). Most Minmatar pilots @ the time had no interest in figuring out ways to optimise their set-ups and was a big reason for the boost to MInmatar. They would not have needed it if they did set-ups like the one above to deal with what was the environment @ the time.

Gallente on the other hand is somewhat different. Gallente drone ships are infact the kings of close range pvp. Blaster ships never exceled there and they dont now. There is no Minmatar, Amarr or Caldari ship I'm able to fly that compared with Gallente drone ships in most classes, close range. I'm not sure what blasters ever excel @. Also, these are what I consider drone ships and all excel @ close range pvp. No other ships come close in there class: Taranis, Comet, Ishkur, Ishtar, Gila, Rattlesnake, Mrymidon, Eos, Vexor navy, Vexor, Dominix, Dominix Navy. Noticed that all these ships have noticeable more drones in their subsequent classes than any other ship. I made these classification 2 years ago, with the intent of finding Minmatar and Caldari alternatives that are as good or better, but I was never able to. I dont think I need to explain why drone ships are usefull close range if you've ever solo pvped (ecm resistant, tank, damage, neut resistant).
Large Collidable Object
morons.
#383 - 2011-11-17 23:57:30 UTC
Julia Connor wrote:
Nerfing ACs into the ground won't change ****. A new FOTM will be out in as little as 2 weeks.


Of course it would, but it would be nice to have FOTMs change once in a while - that's why it's called FOTM.

Minmatar has been the Flavour of the last years, if you disregard the minor gap between the nano nerf and projectile boost (where they still were great but the nano crowd was sulking because they weren't invulnerable anymore).

I can fly all races, but it would be nice to actually have a reason to fly anything but winmatar except very few niches.
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
Desudes
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#384 - 2011-11-18 00:33:47 UTC
Lyris Nairn wrote:
Irrespective of the merits for nerfing the Minmatar ships and the modules that support them expressed in this thread, I have issue with the concept of nerfing things in general as a solution. Nerfing and balancing are not the same thing. Nerfing a thing merely creates a temporary power vacuum which is then promptly filled by the next flavor of the month. This is as much true in EVE Online as it is in other MMOs, where you can observe a pattern of things being nerfed only to have some other thing being decried as overpowered a few weeks later by the same people.

More than that, I think it reeks of cowardice and laziness. Why nerf anything? I personally think there is a lot of satisfaction to be had in watching my alliance mates log in by the hundreds and slam themselves into super-capital ships in their disposable battle cruisers. Is this indicative of a power imbalance? Sure. Should something be done about it? Yes, and in fact something is being done about it in Crucible. But was it necessary? That's where I am unsure. Sure, you can say that I am comparing apples to oranges when I liken Minmatar sub-capitals to super-capitals in general, but the point remains the same—there is a thing, commonly called out as being overpowered and imbalanced, which can and demonstrably has been taken down through numbers, through tactics, or through some other tool available to the players.

We can do so much more than whinge on the forums about imbalances. If we truly believe that A Thing is imbalanced, then perhaps the single best way to force change is to overwhelmingly embrace it or analyse and adopt whatever mechanics make that particular Thing so good and apply it to other Things. Hurricanes with AutoCannons and Medium Energy Neutralizers was the Clusterfuck Coalition's response to the proliferation of super-capitals, and it works; but, with greater or fewer numbers one could just as easily have used Armageddons or Thoraxes to accomplish the same thing.

We have within us, each and every one of us, the capacity for innovative thinking and adaptability. Let us use it!

Whinging on forums just makes us appear weak, lazy, and cowardly.

Overcoming obstacles puts us in control of the game.


Not exactly in correct order but heres my 2isk...

1) Same reason Battleships aren't able to roflstomp frigates is why caps/supercaps shouldn't be what they are. CCP seems to have a clear "size doesn't equal I-Win"; until you hit capital ship level. If they have said capital ships are exempt from this then please link and I will stand corrected (I will chalk it up to asinine game developing as I do a lot of things in EVE)

I disagree strongly against "zerg the living **** out of it" as a solution to any problem in MMOs. Why? This would suggest you can't do exactly the same with an intensely smaller number. If it takes your zerg to kill one guy, what happens when he brings half a dozen friends?

"I brought a bigger ship so suck my wang and gimme yer loot"

2) The argument of "nerfing one FOTM is useless because a new FOTM will take its place" derails the purpose of the nerf. It isn't nerfed because it is popular (or shouldn't be), it is nerfed because it is giving unfair advantages.

3) as for nerfing in general: Game development in MMOs when done right is a series of nerfs and buffs. An example of another game is healers when Arenas were first introduced in WoW. There were 4 healers; Paladins were dominating, Priests were useful as a counter-composition, Shamans were just below mediocre and Druid healers were non-existant. Throughout the expansion they were tweaked until every healer was useful in many ways. (disclaimer: I have no idea how the current scene is as I haven't played since around 2009)

Also you have to keep in mind that where balance is the issue, and only one item is overpowered, it is much easier to change that one item then to change every single other item to match it

4) Whinging on the forums is useless, I agree. The honest to god best and quickest way to get things changed in MMO's from my 11 years experience playing them is to record tons and tons of footage of it and get it seen by lots and lots of people. Be extremely meticulous and have as much raw data as possible. Making a HUGE uproar out of valid and proven data which can be easy assimilated gets things changed (though to be honest, CCP seems one of the blindest companies as far as balance goes)

For instance in Everquest the classes that frequently got looked at were ones that had intelligent and dedicated players providing feedback directly to devs. You'd see the same Necromancers talking about expansion closed betas for instance, the same Beastlords.

Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu?

Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#385 - 2011-11-18 00:51:21 UTC
The first MMO I ever played was EQII. I still have a very close friend from college who plays it. While it wasn't for me the one thing I admired about it was the constant balancing that went on with the classes. Tweaks were done weekly if not daily. Players didn't have an extended period of time - much less years - to get acclimated to something unbalanced. It's an area I wish CCP was better in.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#386 - 2011-11-18 03:42:18 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Minmatar thread the needle between the two and are masters of neither. They can control the range though and either get under the Amarr's lasors or stay out of the range of blasters.


How is a Cane supposed to get under a Harb's lasers? Getting that close just turns the fight into a straight up DPS/EHP race, which your typical shield cane loses to a plated Harb.
Nezumiiro Noneko
Alternative Enterprises
#387 - 2011-11-18 04:01:05 UTC
Large Collidable Object wrote:
Julia Connor wrote:
Nerfing ACs into the ground won't change ****. A new FOTM will be out in as little as 2 weeks.


Of course it would, but it would be nice to have FOTMs change once in a while - that's why it's called FOTM.

Minmatar has been the Flavour of the last years, if you disregard the minor gap between the nano nerf and projectile boost (where they still were great but the nano crowd was sulking because they weren't invulnerable anymore).

I can fly all races, but it would be nice to actually have a reason to fly anything but winmatar except very few niches.



thats more a matter of where you are at tbh. . Going against xyz who like ship abc....yeah you are gonna see abc alot. Was in one plance it was minny spam. Another place that wished I had a zealot bpo becasue they ran the crap out of them.


Fotm for years has favored minny ships? No ****....its favored 2 races (amarr and minny). 1 of those races, minmatar, is more popular since for years its where most caldari players went when they heard "fly something else?" that one time too many. Why I went there. Didn't waste my train time in shield and missiles unlike amarr (nag runs citadel, it own't waste my cruise train). Actually like amarr but that x-train wasted too many skills.

But for your average caldari player minny is a walk in x-train damn near. As the carebear race of choice for noobs nerfed or not nerfed, server will see minny spam till the day it shuts down from the drake/ falcon / rokh burnouts from caldari side. Hybrid may fix that....can wait and see. Might make eagle, lolrox and vulture good. Not betting isk on it, but I will keep an open mind and see what the players do with em.
Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#388 - 2011-11-18 04:29:59 UTC
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Minmatar thread the needle between the two and are masters of neither. They can control the range though and either get under the Amarr's lasors or stay out of the range of blasters.


How is a Cane supposed to get under a Harb's lasers? Getting that close just turns the fight into a straight up DPS/EHP race, which your typical shield cane loses to a plated Harb.


That's a crappy example as you have 250m+ ships shooting at eachother with weapons that have 125m resolution. Try cruiser to cruiser. The pulses will still hit but it's alot more 'barely scratched'.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#389 - 2011-11-18 04:45:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Mfume Apocal
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
That's a crappy example as you have 250m+ ships shooting at eachother with weapons that have 125m resolution. Try cruiser to cruiser. The pulses will still hit but it's alot more 'barely scratched'.


Any example that compares Rupture to Omen is just going to wind up in the Rupture's favor because the Omen is terrible ship in need of several buffs.

EDIT: And now that I've checked, both of them are at or above the sig radius for medium guns.
Desudes
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#390 - 2011-11-18 13:29:13 UTC
A ships 1v1 abilities against another ship have little to do with its balance with that other ship.

Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu?

Goose99
#391 - 2011-11-18 16:45:05 UTC
Desudes wrote:
A ships 1v1 abilities against another ship have little to do with its balance with that other ship.


Exactly. Those 10 brutixes coming after the lone can will never catch it...Lol

Nerf Minmatar speed. They should be as fast as Caldari.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#392 - 2011-11-18 17:19:38 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
Desudes wrote:
A ships 1v1 abilities against another ship have little to do with its balance with that other ship.


Exactly. Those 10 brutixes coming after the lone can will never catch it...Lol

Nerf Minmatar speed. They should be as fast as Caldari.


Screw that. They can still move. Nerf them! And their ammo still has damage associated with it. NNNNEEEERRRRFFF!!!

Roll

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#393 - 2011-11-18 17:21:51 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Minmatar thread the needle between the two and are masters of neither. They can control the range though and either get under the Amarr's lasors or stay out of the range of blasters.


How is a Cane supposed to get under a Harb's lasers? Getting that close just turns the fight into a straight up DPS/EHP race, which your typical shield cane loses to a plated Harb.


That's a crappy example as you have 250m+ ships shooting at eachother with weapons that have 125m resolution. Try cruiser to cruiser. The pulses will still hit but it's alot more 'barely scratched'.


I have absolutely no problems hitting things with medium lasers. I don't know why you're complaining about this? :confused:

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#394 - 2011-11-18 17:48:01 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

I have absolutely no problems hitting things with medium lasers. I don't know why you're complaining about this? :confused:

-Liang


All your gunnery and gunnery support is V, right?

Try it with the average player who might not have that yet. They might have most to IV, some even to III. They miss a bit more.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.

Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#395 - 2011-11-18 17:59:12 UTC
Pulses, compared to AC and Blasters, have the worst tracking. Tracking affects how much of your paper DPS you can actually apply. Even if it's only a 10% damage degradation - it is a degradation. That tight envelope is where I can get a majority of my DPS as a Minmatar pilot and where Amarr struggles - just a bit - to get theirs.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#396 - 2011-11-18 18:40:15 UTC
Vincent Gaines wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

I have absolutely no problems hitting things with medium lasers. I don't know why you're complaining about this? :confused:

-Liang


All your gunnery and gunnery support is V, right?

Try it with the average player who might not have that yet. They might have most to IV, some even to III. They miss a bit more.



If you don't have supports up to snuff, you can't use T2 weapons in the first place. In which case, you're just not interesting or important to this discussion.

No offense.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#397 - 2011-11-18 18:43:52 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Pulses, compared to AC and Blasters, have the worst tracking. Tracking affects how much of your paper DPS you can actually apply. Even if it's only a 10% damage degradation - it is a degradation. That tight envelope is where I can get a majority of my DPS as a Minmatar pilot and where Amarr struggles - just a bit - to get theirs.


A couple of comments:
- Lets be real about this Zarnak - tracking is not the metric that is most interesting. In a great many ways, the interesting metric is whether or not you hit effectively. Pulse lasers have a much better hit profile than hybrids ever have.
- Medium hybrids, medium projectiles, and even medium pulse simply do not have tracking issues to speak of. The real problem with medium sized weapons (as you should actually know) is getting into range in the first place.

If you're talking about medium sized ships and talking about how someone is getting under the tracking of someone else you're just living in a fantasy land.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#398 - 2011-11-18 21:35:31 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Pulses, compared to AC and Blasters, have the worst tracking. Tracking affects how much of your paper DPS you can actually apply. Even if it's only a 10% damage degradation - it is a degradation. That tight envelope is where I can get a majority of my DPS as a Minmatar pilot and where Amarr struggles - just a bit - to get theirs.


A couple of comments:
- Lets be real about this Zarnak - tracking is not the metric that is most interesting. In a great many ways, the interesting metric is whether or not you hit effectively. Pulse lasers have a much better hit profile than hybrids ever have.
- Medium hybrids, medium projectiles, and even medium pulse simply do not have tracking issues to speak of. The real problem with medium sized weapons (as you should actually know) is getting into range in the first place.

If you're talking about medium sized ships and talking about how someone is getting under the tracking of someone else you're just living in a fantasy land.

-Liang


If I see an Amarr ship and I want to engage as Minmatar I'm going to get as close as I can for several reasons:
1) It's where my damage is best.
2) I'm just about guaranteed to have a nuet fitted. The Amarr ship may or may not.
3) Tracking as a tertiary reason. If the Amarr ship doesn't have a TE fit, if the pilot panicked and didn't switch to MF (Huge damage reduction at close range!)- there is a difference. It adds up. I'm going to squeeze every bit of advantage I can out of the conflict.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#399 - 2011-11-18 23:10:29 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
If I see an Amarr ship and I want to engage as Minmatar I'm going to get as close as I can for several reasons:
1) It's where my damage is best.
2) I'm just about guaranteed to have a nuet fitted. The Amarr ship may or may not.
3) Tracking as a tertiary reason. If the Amarr ship doesn't have a TE fit, if the pilot panicked and didn't switch to MF (Huge damage reduction at close range!)- there is a difference. It adds up. I'm going to squeeze every bit of advantage I can out of the conflict.


You earlier claimed that ACs dmg projection was OP given that Minmatar ships could easily disengage. A ship in medium neut range cannot easily disengage, since it's also essentially in scram/web range. You also not considering how a plated Amarr ship has significantly more EHP and not terribly less DPS, so reducing the fight to a straight line DPS/EHP race, plated Amarr wins it.

I use Harbs and Canes in my example because they are commonly flown, much more commonly than T1 cruisers.
Large Collidable Object
morons.
#400 - 2011-11-19 01:54:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Large Collidable Object
Nezumiiro Noneko wrote:
Large Collidable Object wrote:
Julia Connor wrote:
Nerfing ACs into the ground won't change ****. A new FOTM will be out in as little as 2 weeks.


Of course it would, but it would be nice to have FOTMs change once in a while - that's why it's called FOTM.

Minmatar has been the Flavour of the last years, if you disregard the minor gap between the nano nerf and projectile boost (where they still were great but the nano crowd was sulking because they weren't invulnerable anymore).

I can fly all races, but it would be nice to actually have a reason to fly anything but winmatar except very few niches.



thats more a matter of where you are at tbh. . Going against xyz who like ship abc....yeah you are gonna see abc alot. Was in one plance it was minny spam. Another place that wished I had a zealot bpo becasue they ran the crap out of them.



Zealots as in Ahac gang? people fly those again? Admittedly, I haven't really actively played since june, but no matter where I went when I still actively played or after that (when I had to pick up some stuff), all I saw was Canes, Dramiels, Cynabals, Vagas, and of course Drakes.

Quote:

Fotm for years has favored minny ships? No ****....its favored 2 races (amarr and minny). 1 of those races, minmatar, is more popular since for years its where most caldari players went when they heard "fly something else?" that one time too many. Why I went there. Didn't waste my train time in shield and missiles unlike amarr (nag runs citadel, it own't waste my cruise train). Actually like amarr but that x-train wasted too many skills.


The only time Amarr was really FOTM or even OP was sometime until '04 IIRC - then they were nerfed so hard they never really recovered. There was a short renaissance for a couple of months between QR and projectile boost and the brief periods when people copied Ahac gangs and later Hellcats for their respective niche-roles...

Quote:

But for your average caldari player minny is a walk in x-train damn near. As the carebear race of choice for noobs nerfed or not nerfed, server will see minny spam till the day it shuts down from the drake/ falcon / rokh burnouts from caldari side. Hybrid may fix that....can wait and see. Might make eagle, lolrox and vulture good. Not betting isk on it, but I will keep an open mind and see what the players do with em.



I doubt that - once fitting and support skills are maxed, cross-training is rather quickly accomplished - especially after having trained to Minmatar from Caldari, which may admittedly be a common approach. Armor tanking is skilled up pretty quick and you want that anyway if you can fly Minmatar. Gunnery supports will already be there and - assuming everyone maxes his fitting and cap skills either way, regardless of which race he starts with - all that's left are the racial ship and turret skills themselves plus controlled bursts.

Even on my pure Amarr character, I had shields (curse) and unguided missiles (sac) maxed out before finally giving up and crosstraining to Winmatar.

Anyway - I doubt we'll see Amarr at the same frequency we see Minmatar anytime soon - not because of skilling paths but because they're underwhelming compared to Minmatar due to CCP constantly refusing to acknowledge the tremendous advantage being able to dictate range and the highest chance to disengage at will bears.
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)