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Rapid Launch Bomb Launcher.

Author
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#21 - 2013-10-29 20:47:55 UTC
Tiye Q wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

As I said... you have no concept of game balance!

a.) "There is nothing in the history of this game regarding bomb launchers that backs you opinion":
There is a long history of AOE weapons in EvE. From mines to AOE DD's to Smartbombs to bombers. All of which have been utilized to wipe out entire fleets of ships. AOE weapons have been readily shown to be extremely powerful, and brought in check quite often when they are over-utilized. Bombers are already heavily utilized to take out large groups of people, but to do so it a challenge because coordinating bomb launches is difficult. Smart bombs are already utilized to take out large fleets, but to do so is a challenge because getting an enemy fleet within smartbomb range of your durka trap is a challenge, and difficult. Your suggestion is aimed at making them easier to use. (1 bomber now can do the job of 3 bombers).

b.) "My suggestion can and will encourage more solo activity, which this game sorely needs."
Cloaky, stabbed bombers that solo frigates, dessies, and weak cruisers by decloaking, dropping a bomb or three, and warping off to safety is NOT what this game needs. PvP should involve at least effort, and legitimate risks to boot!

c.) "adjusting the damage that the bombs do (removing sig radius penalty or increasing the bomb damage) is not unreasonable."
Yes it is... My bomber does 8k damage... how many frigs or dessies in game have 8k EHP? Very few.... At the moment, you need them to be MWD'ing to kill them with one bomb (usually), which makes it a challenge.

Sorry that bombing isn't easy kill mode for you... but anything worth doing should require some effort.

Your thread ideas are TERRIBLE, and I suspect your either incompetent at bombing at best, and most likely a troll to boot.

/thread


This is far from a troll. You have the option to not read the forum post or further post if you don't agree with my idea.

Unfortunately for you I stated 'history of the game regarding bomb launchers'. You're counter referenced AOE weapons fit to Titans, and Battleships.

If a bomber solos a frigate, dessie or weak cruiser by decloaking and dropping a bomb or three, and warping off, then so be it. It would be evolutionary combat.

There are plenty of ships that can instalock and instapop the smaller ships in the game.

This proposed change can give the smaller entities a fighting chance against something larger.


The references to AOE weapons is very relevant to bomb launches, which are currently the most potent AOE weapon in the game. A rose by any other name smells as sweet, and the potency of AOE weapons are still of concern. Bombers are already utilized (by competent groups) to destroy entire BS fleets, but require a lot of effort to make it happen. Your change makes this easier, and you only reasoning is, bombers need a rebalance.

Why do bombers need to be rebalanced? They work great against BC/BS targets, and are widely utilized to blap structures. They work great in bomber fleets, playing a large role in the metagame. They work alright as solo hunters killing ratters. And they enable a small group of players to engage in quality asymmetric warfare (i.e. a small group of bombers can obliterate a large fleet in seconds).

To this, you want to make all frigates & dessies not super-tanked completely susceptible to solo bombers... just cuase.
To this, you want to make less bombers able to launch the bombers of 2-3x bombers...

Why again???
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#22 - 2013-10-29 20:48:10 UTC
Tiye Q wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:


And since you're giving the bombs immunity to their own damage type, people will not be dropping three of them on a gatecamp.

They'll be dropping three hundred on anything that moves. Why is that good?

Bombs already have an 99% immunity to their own damage type.

There are already entities that can drop 300 bombs on a gate camp, not sure how anything would change with my proposed changes.


More than eight bombs going off at once blow eachother up. Please learn how bombs work before you propose sweeping changes to them.
Tiye Q
SOLAR MESSIAHS INC.
#23 - 2013-10-29 20:51:35 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Tiye Q wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:


And since you're giving the bombs immunity to their own damage type, people will not be dropping three of them on a gatecamp.

They'll be dropping three hundred on anything that moves. Why is that good?

Bombs already have an 99% immunity to their own damage type.

There are already entities that can drop 300 bombs on a gate camp, not sure how anything would change with my proposed changes.


More than eight bombs going off at once blow eachother up. Please learn how bombs work before you propose sweeping changes to them.


I'm pretty sure you made the original reference of 300 bombs.
Caleb Seremshur
Naked Oiled Bodybuilders
Parasitic Legion.
#24 - 2013-10-29 20:51:47 UTC
Tiye Q wrote:
Batelle wrote:
I'm sorry you don't have friends to bomb fleets with.


That's not relevant.

The bomb launcher module needs to be revisited. There's no reason at this stage in the game, that the bomb launcher needs to be limited in rate of fire and activation delay.




sounds pretty relevant to me. Try being more social and less of a passive aggressive demagogue
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#25 - 2013-10-29 20:56:07 UTC
Tiye Q wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Tiye Q wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:


And since you're giving the bombs immunity to their own damage type, people will not be dropping three of them on a gatecamp.

They'll be dropping three hundred on anything that moves. Why is that good?

Bombs already have an 99% immunity to their own damage type.

There are already entities that can drop 300 bombs on a gate camp, not sure how anything would change with my proposed changes.


More than eight bombs going off at once blow eachother up. Please learn how bombs work before you propose sweeping changes to them.


I'm pretty sure you made the original reference of 300 bombs.


Yes, and you are the one who said they'd become immune to their own damage types. Please try to keep up.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2013-10-29 21:10:08 UTC
Please keep posting OP. This thread is the most hilarious thing I have seen all day.
Tiye Q
SOLAR MESSIAHS INC.
#27 - 2013-10-29 21:26:11 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


The references to AOE weapons is very relevant to bomb launches, which are currently the most potent AOE weapon in the game. A rose by any other name smells as sweet, and the potency of AOE weapons are still of concern. Bombers are already utilized (by competent groups) to destroy entire BS fleets, but require a lot of effort to make it happen. Your change makes this easier, and you only reasoning is, bombers need a rebalance.

Why do bombers need to be rebalanced? They work great against BC/BS targets, and are widely utilized to blap structures. They work great in bomber fleets, playing a large role in the metagame. They work alright as solo hunters killing ratters. And they enable a small group of players to engage in quality asymmetric warfare (i.e. a small group of bombers can obliterate a large fleet in seconds).

To this, you want to make all frigates & dessies not super-tanked completely susceptible to solo bombers... just cuase.
To this, you want to make less bombers able to launch the bombers of 2-3x bombers...

Why again???


Bombers needing a rebalance is not my only reasoning for this change. Encouraging solo tactics, reduction of blob warfare, more asymmetric warfare are just a few of the reasons. The bombers are already paper thin, and I'm not proposing an EHP increase of any sort. The ships already have PG issues trying to fit T2 torps launchers, which also needs to be fixed.

The implementation of a signature radius/explosion radius factor, especially for an AOE weapon is silly. In the real world (yes I understand this is a game) when a bomb is detonated on a target, the speed and size of the target have no effect on the damage. Only the targets ability to sustain damage or the yield of the weapon play a roll. In EVE we have a complicated formula that effectively makes bombing frigs and destroyers useless unless they are under MWD.

Bombers are only effective in null and w-space as it is. There is no use for bombers in low or hi-sec...where they are completely susceptible to frigates, and destroyers.

If a frigate or destroyer is susceptible to a bomber while not under MWD, that is a possibility, but not a bad thing.
Tiye Q
SOLAR MESSIAHS INC.
#28 - 2013-10-29 21:31:01 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Tiye Q wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Tiye Q wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:


And since you're giving the bombs immunity to their own damage type, people will not be dropping three of them on a gatecamp.

They'll be dropping three hundred on anything that moves. Why is that good?

Bombs already have an 99% immunity to their own damage type.

There are already entities that can drop 300 bombs on a gate camp, not sure how anything would change with my proposed changes.


More than eight bombs going off at once blow eachother up. Please learn how bombs work before you propose sweeping changes to them.


I'm pretty sure you made the original reference of 300 bombs.


Yes, and you are the one who said they'd become immune to their own damage types. Please try to keep up.


Every bomb has an already built in 99.5% resistance to it's own damage type. Next time you're in-game please review the bomb stats to help educate yourself.
Luc Chastot
#29 - 2013-10-29 22:15:17 UTC
Some people are too stupid to understand reason.

Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot.

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#30 - 2013-10-29 23:35:29 UTC
Tiye Q wrote:

Bombers needing a rebalance is not my only reasoning for this change. Encouraging solo tactics, reduction of blob warfare, more asymmetric warfare are just a few of the reasons.


You do realize the bomber already fulfills these roles?
They don't need a boon to bomb mechanics to accomplish this. Your suggestions just make it "easier", but that isn't an improvement.

One of the biggest dilemma's in "fixing blob warfare" is that generally speaking, any advantage you give to an individual ship will also be enjoyed by 50 of those ships. Making bombs more destructive and easier to spam means 50 bombers can suddenly become insanely powerful.

Using current numbers, 8 bombers can drop a waves of bombs delivering 60-64k damage. Properly positioned, 4 bomber groups can simultaneously deliver all 4 waves to a target, but it requires a lot of work. Most organized groups can manage 2 simultaneous waves, which is still 120k damage (enough to instapop BS groups). Do we really NEED bombers to be more potant than this, because I really don't think we do.

Tiye Q wrote:

The bombers are already paper thin, and I'm not proposing an EHP increase of any sort. The ships already have PG issues trying to fit T2 torps launchers, which also needs to be fixed.

I'd support an EHP increase, or a PG increase long before I'd support making their bomb damage more potent. Fitting torps and/or tank means your sticking around on grid and shooting stuff, which means you are at risk of dying while engaging.

Tiye Q wrote:

The implementation of a signature radius/explosion radius factor, especially for an AOE weapon is silly. In the real world (yes I understand this is a game) when a bomb is detonated on a target, the speed and size of the target have no effect on the damage. Only the targets ability to sustain damage or the yield of the weapon play a roll. In EVE we have a complicated formula that effectively makes bombing frigs and destroyers useless unless they are under MWD.


RL explosion mechanics are pretty complicated, but size (or more precisely, inertia) of a target has a MAJOR influence on how much damage it takes from an explosion.

In EvE, bombing non-MWD frigates is not entirely useless with a bomber. One bomb is enough to kill fragile and/or MWD frigates, and 3 bombs will kill most frigates. This makes killing targets a little more challenging, but is not something terribly difficult to do. Your suggestion, and I'd just sit on a gate spamming d-scan when I know a frig gang is coming through. When at the appropriate range, I decloak, bomb, bomb, bomb and the entire frigate gang will all die as they exit warp before they can even regain control of their ship. Give me a squad of 8 bombers, and I'll take out gangs of cruisers and BC's in a manner they can't stop. You can currently do something close, but getting the timing down is fairly difficult. Having the ability to spam bombs would be insane!

Tiye Q wrote:

Bombers are only effective in null and w-space as it is. There is no use for bombers in low or hi-sec...where they are completely susceptible to frigates, and destroyers.

If a frigate or destroyer is susceptible to a bomber while not under MWD, that is a possibility, but not a bad thing.


First off, bombers are used in lowsec and highsec. They make excellent structure bashing ships, are the preferred FW mission running ship, and are excellent at engaging large targets.

Next, Bomb changes are irrelevant to lowsec and highsec, as you can't use bombs there. So your proposal doesn't change the bombers role in lowsec or highsec.

Finally, bombers are high dps, very mobile, and effective at the roles they do. Why should bombers to be good at killing frigates and destroyers to boot?
Tiye Q
SOLAR MESSIAHS INC.
#31 - 2013-10-30 00:31:47 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


You do realize the bomber already fulfills these roles?
They don't need a boon to bomb mechanics to accomplish this. Your suggestions just make it "easier", but that isn't an improvement.

One of the biggest dilemma's in "fixing blob warfare" is that generally speaking, any advantage you give to an individual ship will also be enjoyed by 50 of those ships. Making bombs more destructive and easier to spam means 50 bombers can suddenly become insanely powerful.

Using current numbers, 8 bombers can drop a waves of bombs delivering 60-64k damage. Properly positioned, 4 bomber groups can simultaneously deliver all 4 waves to a target, but it requires a lot of work. Most organized groups can manage 2 simultaneous waves, which is still 120k damage (enough to instapop BS groups). Do we really NEED bombers to be more potant than this, because I really don't think we do.

I'd support an EHP increase, or a PG increase long before I'd support making their bomb damage more potent. Fitting torps and/or tank means your sticking around on grid and shooting stuff, which means you are at risk of dying while engaging.


RL explosion mechanics are pretty complicated, but size (or more precisely, inertia) of a target has a MAJOR influence on how much damage it takes from an explosion.

In EvE, bombing non-MWD frigates is not entirely useless with a bomber. One bomb is enough to kill fragile and/or MWD frigates, and 3 bombs will kill most frigates. This makes killing targets a little more challenging, but is not something terribly difficult to do. Your suggestion, and I'd just sit on a gate spamming d-scan when I know a frig gang is coming through. When at the appropriate range, I decloak, bomb, bomb, bomb and the entire frigate gang will all die as they exit warp before they can even regain control of their ship. Give me a squad of 8 bombers, and I'll take out gangs of cruisers and BC's in a manner they can't stop. You can currently do something close, but getting the timing down is fairly difficult. Having the ability to spam bombs would be insane!

First off, bombers are used in lowsec and highsec. They make excellent structure bashing ships, are the preferred FW mission running ship, and are excellent at engaging large targets.

Next, Bomb changes are irrelevant to lowsec and highsec, as you can't use bombs there. So your proposal doesn't change the bombers role in lowsec or highsec.

Finally, bombers are high dps, very mobile, and effective at the roles they do. Why should bombers to be good at killing frigates and destroyers to boot?


I certainly understand the concern with the fear of the ability to 'spam' bombs.

Bombers should be able to take out frigates, and destroyers, under non mwd conditions with a single bomb. Furthermore a bomber is the only frigate that cannot solo another frigate (unless the MWD conditions are met) with it's TWO weapon systems.

This latest "expansion" is about to have interdiction nullified interceptors, and rapid launch interdiction sphere launchers, and even rapid heavy missile launchers. There will not be a reasonable way to counter the interceptor after the expansion, and the rapid launch interdiction sphere launcher is effectively an unnecessary boon to the dictor class. The bomber class needs to be revisited, and 'rebalanced' just as well as the other frigate classes have been 'rebalanced'.

If a rapid launch bomb launcher is too much, then I would certainly compromise for an increase to the actual damage that a single bomb can do. Preferably something in the 16k range, and the bomb ignoring the signature radius of the ship. That is enough damage to kill any frigate or destroyer with a single bomb.
Vassal Zeren
Children of Zarathustra
#32 - 2013-10-30 00:49:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Vassal Zeren
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Tiye Q wrote:
Batelle wrote:
I'm sorry you don't have friends to bomb fleets with.


That's not relevant.

The bomb launcher module needs to be revisited. There's no reason at this stage in the game, that the bomb launcher needs to be limited in rate of fire and activation delay.




sounds pretty relevant to me. Try being more social and less of a passive aggressive demagogue


Try not making personal attacks. It's not very social. Oh did I mention it's against the forum rules?

Everyone is hammering this man! He is backing up his ideas by responding to relentless criticism from all sides. Regardless of his idea's validity, he gets my respect merely for that. "Not relevant" was the perfect response to an investigative comment that had the potential to slow down the thread.

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.

Trii Seo
Goonswarm Federation
#33 - 2013-10-30 01:00:50 UTC
Can't tell if troll...

With rubicon warp changes, by the time a battleship fleet aligns out and warps, a bombing fleet is likely to position and conduct a bombing run. An average bombing run can force the enemy off the field, which is often a good strategic move. A good bombing run will generate panic and disorient logistics. A "f'in A!" bombing run leaves not much but wrecks.

Bombers are already capable of dealing a tremendous amount of AoE damage, there's little reason in enabling them to do even more.

Proud pilot of the Imperium

Arek'Jaalan: Heliograph

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#34 - 2013-10-30 01:28:30 UTC
Tiye Q wrote:


I certainly understand the concern with the fear of the ability to 'spam' bombs.

Bombers should be able to take out frigates, and destroyers, under non mwd conditions with a single bomb. Furthermore a bomber is the only frigate that cannot solo another frigate (unless the MWD conditions are met) with it's TWO weapon systems.


Why should a bomber be able to "take out frigates and destroyers under non-mwd conditions with a single bomb?

First off, it is a COVERT ship. Whenever CCP gives a ship the ability to fit a covert cloak, that ship is weaker in combat than other ships of its class. This is a very powerful tool, which allows the covert ship to pick and chose engagements at will, while very effectively avoiding unwanted engagements.

Next, show me another frigate in the game that does 500+ dps. My torp bomber does 650+ dps out to 50 km's. Few ships match that dps out to such a range, and you get it in a frigate package. Yes, this dps is limited to large targets, but so what. A raven has trouble dealing with frigates too, and can die to a solo Rifter! I've solo killed many BS's and BC's with frigates and cruisers because Large Weapons have a weakness, where they don't apply damage to small ships very well. Bombers are in a unique position of dealing massive dps for a frigate, but only to large targets.

p.s. you can solo frigates in a bomber... you just have to be smart about it. Fit rocket launchers, ab, scram, a web or two, blap them at 8 km's. It won't kill all frigates, but it'll kill many. (I do this with my Helios).

In short, I don't believe a single bomb should kill so easily.... and I don't understand why you think it should!
HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#35 - 2013-10-30 01:47:47 UTC
Tiye Q wrote:
Bombers should be able to take out frigates, and destroyers, under non mwd conditions with a single bomb. Furthermore a bomber is the only frigate that cannot solo another frigate (unless the MWD conditions are met) with it's TWO weapon systems.

You should know something; painters and damps are fun things on lowsec roams. They're even funner in null.
Tiye Q
SOLAR MESSIAHS INC.
#36 - 2013-10-30 02:26:47 UTC
Trii Seo wrote:
Can't tell if troll...

With rubicon warp changes, by the time a battleship fleet aligns out and warps, a bombing fleet is likely to position and conduct a bombing run. An average bombing run can force the enemy off the field, which is often a good strategic move. A good bombing run will generate panic and disorient logistics. A "f'in A!" bombing run leaves not much but wrecks.

Bombers are already capable of dealing a tremendous amount of AoE damage, there's little reason in enabling them to do even more.


The rubicon warp changes will clearly allow bombing fleets to move around and position faster. In fact with the rubicon warp changes bombers using the align/decloak/launch/warp to bookmark method will become even more untouchable, and nigh uncatchable.

The AoE damage for bombs was determined at a time in the game where EHP of ships was overall a bit lower (ship and module stat changes, and player innovation have increased EHP). While these changes to ship EHP increase and modules get better, more bombers will be required to fulfill their current 'job roles' -- as varied as those roles might be.
Tiye Q
SOLAR MESSIAHS INC.
#37 - 2013-10-30 02:35:18 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Tiye Q wrote:


I certainly understand the concern with the fear of the ability to 'spam' bombs.

Bombers should be able to take out frigates, and destroyers, under non mwd conditions with a single bomb. Furthermore a bomber is the only frigate that cannot solo another frigate (unless the MWD conditions are met) with it's TWO weapon systems.


Why should a bomber be able to "take out frigates and destroyers under non-mwd conditions with a single bomb?

First off, it is a COVERT ship. Whenever CCP gives a ship the ability to fit a covert cloak, that ship is weaker in combat than other ships of its class. This is a very powerful tool, which allows the covert ship to pick and chose engagements at will, while very effectively avoiding unwanted engagements.

Next, show me another frigate in the game that does 500+ dps. My torp bomber does 650+ dps out to 50 km's. Few ships match that dps out to such a range, and you get it in a frigate package. Yes, this dps is limited to large targets, but so what. A raven has trouble dealing with frigates too, and can die to a solo Rifter! I've solo killed many BS's and BC's with frigates and cruisers because Large Weapons have a weakness, where they don't apply damage to small ships very well. Bombers are in a unique position of dealing massive dps for a frigate, but only to large targets.

p.s. you can solo frigates in a bomber... you just have to be smart about it. Fit rocket launchers, ab, scram, a web or two, blap them at 8 km's. It won't kill all frigates, but it'll kill many. (I do this with my Helios).

In short, I don't believe a single bomb should kill so easily.... and I don't understand why you think it should!


Assault frigs (and now HACs) have gotten a MWD penalty reduction, making bombs even more useless against them. Defensive modules have become more effective over the years of expansions and overall ship EHP has increased, while bomb damage has remained stagnant.

650+ DPS out to 50km is great, but useless (solo) because you can't scram or disrupt anything from that range in said 650+ DPS bomber. Ravens and other battleships can indeed die to frigates, but nowadays it's a rare occurrence.

Bombers don't give a bonus to rocket launchers, or other missile based weapon systems, so fitting them on a bomber would be less than an optimal solution.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#38 - 2013-10-30 06:05:21 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Tiye Q wrote:
Assault frigs (and now HACs) have gotten a MWD penalty reduction, making bombs even more useless against them.

Have you ever considered the possibility that this is by design? That Stealth Bombers are not supposed to be especially effective against other frigates... you know... as a trade-off for being more effective against larger ships? That perhaps Assault Frigates were given their MWD sig reduction bonus to be more effective against bomber gangs as well as larger ships?

Tiye Q wrote:
Defensive modules have become more effective over the years of expansions and overall ship EHP has increased, while bomb damage has remained stagnant.

And yet Stealth Bombers seem to be nuking fleets just fine. Just ask anyone in Bombers Bar.

Tiye Q wrote:
650+ DPS out to 50km is great, but useless (solo) because you can't scram or disrupt anything from that range in said 650+ DPS bomber.

Again... have you considered that is the trade-off for being able to sling that much DPS at that long of range? No ship can do everything effectively... nor should they.

Tiye Q wrote:
Bombers don't give a bonus to rocket launchers, or other missile based weapon systems, so fitting them on a bomber would be less than an optimal solution.

Who says you have to fit your ships precisely according to what bonuses they have? Just because a Myrmidon has a bonus towards active reps, it doesn't mean you can't fit it for armor buffer... or even shields for that matter. I've even heard of Tornados being fit with small guns, several webs, and a single 1400 to kill overconfident frigates.
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