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Major Warp Speed problems

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Pandemic Legion
#181 - 2013-10-28 16:08:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Forlorn Wongraven
CCP Fozzie wrote:
It's also very vulnerable to anti-support fire. Like I said, I'm not currently convinced that the warp speeds possible in the current Rubicon design are detrimental to the game overall. I will however be watching them very carefully so if you disagree please take advantage of the power of these ships as much as you can and enjoy the benefits while demonstrating to us why we should change it.

Please explain how the new buffed T2 resist and mwd bonused dictors are very vulnerable to anti-support. The reload timer for one bubble is basically nothing, in fleet situation you usually have more than two dics anyhow. Hostile fleet still stays bubbled, survivability of dics just has been increased by going out of own bubble and warping out got easier.

Winner ATXI , 3rd place ATXII, winner ATXIII, 2nd ATXIV - follow me on twitter: @ForlornW

Test Alliance Please Ignore
#182 - 2013-10-28 16:36:10 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:

The interdictors are a special case though. Everything else you can just get rid of by applying sufficient firepower. If a dictor bubbles you, that bubble is there to stay for 2 minutes even if you kill it.


You can get rid of a bubble with 1 bomb. Literally.
Caldari State
#183 - 2013-10-28 16:55:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Alyssa Haginen
This idea kills null sec for anyone small. IMHO being able to warp in without appearing on d-scan is a glitch. One good easy idea I read was to increase directional scan range. If your d-scan had 28au range even the fastest dictors will appear on d-scan for at least a second. Right now the future tactics you are introducing will lean toward large brawling fleets of small ships. Also, you are once again discouraging small and solo PvP in favor of a numbers war. This is great and all if your someone without a job or someone who doesnt really care about their job and plays eve while 'working'. You can wait on someones order to jump for countless hours and then ask how high.


Most people don't want to be stuck on a single game for 8 hours a day. The average game playing person will play for an hour or two and if things dont get fun then good bye. Most players dont want to have to make a ton of 'virtual friends' just to be able to play the game and make a little isk. A so called 'virtual friend' can put a knife in your back much more easy then a real one. I remember doing wh sites solo and then I got to doing high class whs with a fleet and even when evenly split, the isk made was not impressive. This will make it so pretty much any player will need a large support fleet to pve. The result, high sec lvl 4 missions will be the highest money maker.


Im starting to see a pattern though through all of these updates and the way the eve economy has been affected. CCP has now switched from the idea of making money from new players to making money from alt accounts and selling plex. What they are saying when they ignore this server side glitch is that the guy that wastes 8 hours of his life on this game is worthless compared to the guy that just buys a plex.


Its probably true that most of eve's pvping players are the kind of people that have the mentality of step on the weak to get whatever I can. Human nature is to find safety in numbers but there are a few of us who get off on hunting the predators. CCP you are once again taking away tools from small gangs and solo players. Its not like fcs are going to resort to any other tactics because of this. The same tried and true eve strategy of, "How many in their fleet, 10? Ok we need 30 people and 5 falcons" will stay. I try to stay with this game because I like the idea of a space exploration sandbox game but it gets harder with CCP's new flavors for eve. Pretty obvious CCP's exclusive release idea for dust was kind of a fail so its not surprising the marketing strategy is once again changing. Im not gonna look at high sec PvE doing the same mindless missions as fun for a solo player. That got old after the first year. Also not goona look at the idea of waiting for a bunch of people try to coordinate for whatever reason is fun because its not. Even when you have it on the calender it still take a fleet at least 30 minutes to prep and thats if the fleet command is trying to roll out with no plan and no ship preferences. Add a plan and ship type preferences and you just blew more brain neurons then a stash of hard drugs.
Minmatar Republic
#184 - 2013-10-28 17:04:16 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Like I said, I'm not currently convinced that the warp speeds possible in the current Rubicon design are detrimental to the game overall. I will however be watching them very carefully so if you disagree please take advantage of the power of these ships as much as you can and enjoy the benefits while demonstrating to us why we should change it.


How are you not seeing how big of a difference the warp speed changes will make in null sec warfare? You are killing at least half a dozen fleet comps with this change while making a lot more even more unviable than they were. Its not like nullsec alliances have many choices anymore... A couple of armor battleships, tech 3s and maybe Zealots/Eagles and thats it.

Clearly I'm missing something so maybe you can explain why I'm wrong. Don't you see any problems with Interdictors warping so fast that they can bubble fleets before they even start aligning out after they have landed on grid followed by squads of bombers? A competent prober will catch cruisers and bigger quite easily especially in high TiDi where you have more time to look at dscan and start running your probes when a hostile fleet is seen at the right distance. If the prober's timing is good enough he can start warping a dictor instantly when the hostile fleet lands, dictor bubbles them and the prober's friends of 4 squads of bombers unload bombs on them. This will happen every time a fleet lands on grid as long as the bomber fleet has dictors to spare.

So what are fleet supposed to do to counter this? Warp in a big big line a few at the time giving the hostiles who set up on grid a huge advantage? Even if the line is 100km long and your spreading is perfect you will still lose 30% of your fleet to a bombing run. Warp in several suicide dictors to get your warp in spot covered in bubbles? That might work but sacrificing 5+ dictors every time you want to warp to a grid seems a bit too much. Warp to hostiles at 0 and hope that their bombers don't want to bomb their friendlies? If you do this you just have to hope the 3rd party bombers kill both of your fleets. Have some large smartbombs to kill incoming bombs or maybe bubbles? Might work if your smartbomb dudes get lucky and are on the correct sides of the fleet warp ball and if the game doesn't lag out and they don't miss their 1-2 second time window. BC fleets are still dead though and the dictor can be warped to 10km too which is nicely out of range.

Now someone is thinking that the first bomb will kill the bubble allowing the fleet to warp away. That might work well for some faster aligning fleets but in reality you will still get hit by multiple bombs, have to spend time repping in a safe, warp in again and get bombed again. Also the bomber fleet might have a Heavy Interdictor that gets warped after the Light Interdictor but before his bubble goes up. HIC would land inside the bubble and put his own bubble up forcing the fleet that is about to get bombed to stay on grid long enough for the bombs to explode.

Please note that all the examples are from a subcap sov blob side of things. Your 40 man rail Naga fleet will be fine but when you have 500-2000 player fights everyone is bringing bombers and you end up in a situation like 1-SMEB where Test Rokhs died by the hundreds against 4 different bomber fleets..

Some of you are probably laughing at null sec alliance's F1 monkeys that are nothing compared to the elite pvp small gang dudes who hate the blob. But what are the alliances supposed to do? The game mechanics don't allow any fancy strategies at such large scale and the game is just too slow with its 1 second ticks to handle these kinds of speeds. The only option is to either go for it in a ****** cheap t1 cruiser fleet and hope you don't get bombed or go with more expensive tech 3 fleets that are able to survive. Both choices aren't really fun as the first is like saying we have already lost the fight and the second causes less fights because people are more afraid to use more expensive (isk and skillpoint wise) fleets. Its fun for the bombers of course.

After these changes the only thing that matters in nullsec sov fights is your ability to stay on grid, bomb survivability and how long beforehand you form a fleet so you can setup on the timer's grid before it gets too dangerous.

Fleets this change will kill:
- All tier 3 sniping BCs. You will get probed and bubbled before you even finish warping and bombed a few seconds afterwards
- All other BC fleets, just don't have the EHP or speed to survive or dodge bombs
- All remaining shield BS fleets (not that there were many left because of constant shield nerfs/armor buffs). Its amazing that shield BS fleets are becoming even bigger joke. I didn't think that would be possible
- Some high sig or low tank armor BS fleets (anything that can't be double plated pretty much)
- Some HAC fleets like Muninns


I want to make something very clear here. Bomber's warp speed has nothing to do with all of this. They could warp slower than a battleship and the results would be the same. This is all about Interdictors being able to force fleets to stay on grid, especially at the moment they land and have no defensive bubbles up. And even with defensive bubbles its not certain that you wont die. In the Fountain war CFC bombed many completely bubble surrounded Dominix fleets. Sure CFC lost a couple of dozen bombers in each run from the 100 or whatever there were in fleet but killing 100-200 hostiles was worth it.

Its a lot of words to say bombers, with good support, are imbalanced. But these warp speeds changes will make them even more unstoppable killing machines especially considering their cheap cost and extreme mobility with Blackops bridges.
Caldari State
#185 - 2013-10-28 17:11:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Dirk Action
the warp speed changes are fine

the ACCELERATION from sublight speed to FTL speed that is the warp bubble is fine

the DECELERATION from FTL speed that is the warp bubble to sublight speed is not fine


this is due to the fact that the people on the destination grid have zero time to react to an interdictor even if they are fully prepared. this includes having eyes on the interdictor as it warps toward you and you being aligned out.

the fact that Fozzie has come in here and said, "I understand your concerns, and I don't really see the issue" with taking away the option of maneuvering for any number of fleets is simply astounding. nobody in their right mind is asking for a complete rollback to the WARP SPEED or ACCELERATION changes, but unless you somehow make grids stretch to about 5+ AU in order to give people a chance to even react to seeing a hostile interdictor (which opens up an entirely new can of worms since you'll be seeing an entire mess of ships that have nothing to do with you when travelling or generally playing the game) then the only way this can be balanced again is by keeping warp deceleration as it is now.
Caldari State
#186 - 2013-10-28 17:17:46 UTC
if you have taken steps to protect yourself and your assets through awareness, be it a quiet evening gatecamp, a fleet of coward Tornados or a fuсking supercapital fleet, you shouldn't be penalized for it. because as it stands now, as soon as an interdictor shows up in a system you might as well completely disregard any sort of maneuverable options you may have had because they won't matter because you can't see the dictor coming.
Pandemic Legion
#187 - 2013-10-28 17:18:03 UTC
Lazei wrote:
words

New dictors can easily fit cloak, expanded probe launcher, bubble, mwd and reasonable tank. But I am pretty sure that is not OP. Lol

Winner ATXI , 3rd place ATXII, winner ATXIII, 2nd ATXIV - follow me on twitter: @ForlornW

#188 - 2013-10-28 17:29:00 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=286842 is what I was referring to.

Dictor v2 rebalance changes bubble launchers significantly, and adds a lot of survivability to dictors but removes some of their warp speed in compensation.

They'll still be able to "appear" on grid with rigs and implants, but like I said before we'll be watching how these changes shake out and adjusting as needed.


It isnt just dictors though. Interceptors, particular t3 fits, and particular t2 cruiser fits can all do the same thing.

I mean, its not like you can fire on the interceptor if you get your scan res high enough, or get warning of it coming if you mash dscan often enough. It just appears on grid having already scrammed you, without appearing on dscan or appearing on grid without having locked you.


It's also very vulnerable to anti-support fire. Like I said, I'm not currently convinced that the warp speeds possible in the current Rubicon design are detrimental to the game overall. I will however be watching them very carefully so if you disagree please take advantage of the power of these ships as much as you can and enjoy the benefits while demonstrating to us why we should change it.


How many billions of isk lost to this will it take before you are convinced?

Don't use TQ and player's hard earned money to make the "it's OP" decision. Listen to your player base, please.
#189 - 2013-10-28 17:30:17 UTC  |  Edited by: gascanu
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=286842 is what I was referring to.

Dictor v2 rebalance changes bubble launchers significantly, and adds a lot of survivability to dictors but removes some of their warp speed in compensation.

They'll still be able to "appear" on grid with rigs and implants, but like I said before we'll be watching how these changes shake out and adjusting as needed.


It isnt just dictors though. Interceptors, particular t3 fits, and particular t2 cruiser fits can all do the same thing.

I mean, its not like you can fire on the interceptor if you get your scan res high enough, or get warning of it coming if you mash dscan often enough. It just appears on grid having already scrammed you, without appearing on dscan or appearing on grid without having locked you.


It's also very vulnerable to anti-support fire. Like I said, I'm not currently convinced that the warp speeds possible in the current Rubicon design are detrimental to the game overall. I will however be watching them very carefully so if you disagree please take advantage of the power of these ships as much as you can and enjoy the benefits while demonstrating to us why we should change it.


oh my god.... the problem is you won't have a single dictor to worry about... big coalitions will have entire wings of intis/dictors warping on your fleet, and with the new interceptors bubble immunity good luck trying to pin them down....they will be able to warp out and back on the grid very fast: warp in, tackle your fleet before you can see it and then will just have to wait a bit till main fleet lands; hell, those intyes can even do drive-bys on the field, there is no way a sniping fleet for example, can stop a large number of them warp in/out on the grid...
C C P Alliance
#190 - 2013-10-28 17:39:12 UTC
Dirk Action wrote:
the warp speed changes are fine

the ACCELERATION from sublight speed to FTL speed that is the warp bubble is fine

the DECELERATION from FTL speed that is the warp bubble to sublight speed is not fine


Here's the key thing to remember. Virtually the entire impact of these changes is ties to deceleration. Warp top speed isn't actually changing much with the changes (and is actually going down for the fast ships), the problem we're fixing with this whole feature is how acceleration and deceleration used to be the same for all ships.

The part of this change you don't like is also virtually the only part that has any impact Blink

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Caldari State
#191 - 2013-10-28 17:42:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Dirk Action
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Dirk Action wrote:
the warp speed changes are fine

the ACCELERATION from sublight speed to FTL speed that is the warp bubble is fine

the DECELERATION from FTL speed that is the warp bubble to sublight speed is not fine


Here's the key thing to remember. Virtually the entire impact of these changes is ties to deceleration. Warp top speed isn't actually changing much with the changes (and is actually going down for the fast ships), the problem we're fixing with this whole feature is how acceleration and deceleration used to be the same for all ships.

The part of this change you don't like is also virtually the only part that has any impact Blink


Surely you can make Acceleration and Deceleration two separate things?

I know that "deceleration" in real life is simply acceleration in the opposite direction but for the sake of balance I'd imagine something could be thrown together in EVE.

Like literally just keep acceleration as it is with your new Rubicon expansion but keep the deceleration what it has always been, or at least a middleground between the two that gives people the chance to react to a dictor coming out of warp.

How are you not seeing the problem with this?
#192 - 2013-10-28 17:48:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Schmata Bastanold
Well, I'm not saying that tackle that basically decloaks on you without actually having any cloak doesn't have ossumness factor but maybe your next big project could be fixing grid related things like loading delay and that weird invisible walls between them preventing to interact with ship that is basically few km from you.

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Pandemic Legion
#193 - 2013-10-28 17:55:22 UTC
Personally, I'd like to see how the changes pan out before making modification. The threat of t2 warp speed rigged dictors is largely overemphasized I feel and isnt nearly as relevant as people are making it sound.
HYDRA RELOADED
#194 - 2013-10-28 18:09:45 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Dirk Action wrote:
the warp speed changes are fine

the ACCELERATION from sublight speed to FTL speed that is the warp bubble is fine

the DECELERATION from FTL speed that is the warp bubble to sublight speed is not fine


Here's the key thing to remember. Virtually the entire impact of these changes is ties to deceleration. Warp top speed isn't actually changing much with the changes (and is actually going down for the fast ships), the problem we're fixing with this whole feature is how acceleration and deceleration used to be the same for all ships.

The part of this change you don't like is also virtually the only part that has any impact Blink


I like the changes. I dont like the magnitude of the changes, to the point that the EVE engine and interface start failing.
#195 - 2013-10-28 18:10:10 UTC
IOW: Warp acceleration changes = capitals nerf?
HYDRA RELOADED
#196 - 2013-10-28 18:36:51 UTC
Berluth Luthian wrote:
IOW: Warp acceleration changes = capitals nerf?


Not really. The main problem is that ships are warping so fast that it breaks the game engine, like way back in the day when frigates could go like 50k/s
Caldari State
#197 - 2013-10-28 19:52:27 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Dirk Action wrote:
the warp speed changes are fine

the ACCELERATION from sublight speed to FTL speed that is the warp bubble is fine

the DECELERATION from FTL speed that is the warp bubble to sublight speed is not fine


Here's the key thing to remember. Virtually the entire impact of these changes is ties to deceleration. Warp top speed isn't actually changing much with the changes (and is actually going down for the fast ships), the problem we're fixing with this whole feature is how acceleration and deceleration used to be the same for all ships.

The part of this change you don't like is also virtually the only part that has any impact
Blink


So, by " fixing " you mean introducing an exploitable mechanic to a long time well tested feature?
Corus Conglomerate
#198 - 2013-10-28 20:19:52 UTC
Fozzie, please don't make this go live without making adjustments to the engine... you should always be able to see whats warping in on you, it shouldn't be limited to "Oh well the grid has to load first"

I really do like the idea of stuff loading the grid it's warping to even if it's not yet in the same grid bubble :3... or something! srsrly.

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934

Pandemic Legion
#199 - 2013-10-28 20:27:49 UTC
Alyssa Haginen wrote:
This idea kills null sec for anyone small. IMHO being able to warp in without appearing on d-scan is a glitch. One good easy idea I read was to increase directional scan range. If your d-scan had 28au range even the fastest dictors will appear on d-scan for at least a second. Right now the future tactics you are introducing will lean toward large brawling fleets of small ships..


What about using Local as your Intel tool and not D scan?
Caldari State
#200 - 2013-10-28 20:41:59 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Dirk Action wrote:
the warp speed changes are fine

the ACCELERATION from sublight speed to FTL speed that is the warp bubble is fine

the DECELERATION from FTL speed that is the warp bubble to sublight speed is not fine


Here's the key thing to remember. Virtually the entire impact of these changes is ties to deceleration. Warp top speed isn't actually changing much with the changes (and is actually going down for the fast ships), the problem we're fixing with this whole feature is how acceleration and deceleration used to be the same for all ships.

The part of this change you don't like is also virtually the only part that has any impact Blink



the only problem in all this change is the "appearing" on grid part. I think this can be fixed by altering the deceleration (and acceleration) curve.

at first stage, when ship is still in mid-warp make deceleration more rapid so that you reach grid faster. the moment before entering grid ship should slow down deceleration to level that would allow enough time to load grid and actually decelerate on grid for a second or two more than right now (comparing to interdictor with rigs right now on sisi)
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