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Want to get away from missiles - Suggestions for a particular hybrid or projectile boat?
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Abel Tellor
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2013-10-28 15:10:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Abel Tellor
Hello folks

tl;dr:

• Looking for help with finding a solo 0.0 Angel anom boat to replace the SNI I use as I want away from missiles.

• Looking for help with finding a group 0.0 Angel DED boat to replace the SNI I use as I want away from missiles.

• Having trouble finding fits with comparable DPS to SNI via EFT. Closest I've come has been about 50 DPS difference. Is that a big gap?

• Not a lot of drone skills, but have T2 Warriors and T2 Valkyries

• Much prefer range tanking for solo use; not opposed to close quarters work for group ops.

I'm no fittings guru, and I'm having fitting issues I'm hoping to get some help with. I recently moved out to 0.0 Angel Space from high sec, and am trying to find the right boat to run the anomolies and DED sites with. I'm looking for both solo and group use, and I'm okay with these being two different ships if needed.

Currently I'm using a Navy Scorp, meta 4 launchers, and Nova missiles. I'm pushing around 470 or 480 according to EFT if I recall correctly.

This ship is working absolutely fine, but I'd like to get away from missiles. I'm not to picky about whether I go to hybrids or projectile, but I want a sniping fit for solo use, and I have no preference for group use. The group boat will likely be focused on battleships and maybe cruisers, as my group clears out the frigs and dessies as fast as I can target them. I use T2 Warriors and T2 Valkyries in my SNI.

Suggestions for a boat to use? I recently bought and fit a Rokh, but am only able to push around 430 DPS with antimatter. I bought a Naga before the Rokh, then remembered I couldn't fit the MJD on it, so haven't fitted it. I suppose I could throw a MWD on it though. Hadn't thought of that until this post - will have to EFT that when I get home from work. If I put take the guns from the Rokh and throw them on the Naga, my DPS should raise quite a bit since I have BC 5...correct?

I've really considered the Mach, but am concerned about being in close for the AC's and having my tank overrun. I like the safety and security of range tank. Are arty mach's anything to write home about, or will the Tempest do just as well? Looks to me like BS 5 will give you the same bonuses in a Tempest as the Mach gets, with the exception of tracking. But when distance tanking, tracking is as big an issues as when using AC's. Is the Mach still worth the cost when arty fit? I don't have BS 5, but 4 is not too far away. I'd lose a little bit of ROF in the pest, but at a substantially cheaper hull cost. Though I suppose I could use an arty mach solo, and AC mach for group work. There's an idea I guess...

Thoughts? Thanks for your time.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#2 - 2013-10-28 15:56:22 UTC
For angels a mach is nigh impossible to beat....and dont worry about range on that thing either. "Short range" on that isn't as "short" as you'd think.
Icarus Able
Refuse.Resist
#3 - 2013-10-28 16:16:34 UTC
Mach or Mael are both great.Mach if you can afford it as you can get 100km falloff with Autocannons so range is never an issue.
My Little Pyongyang
Doomheim
#4 - 2013-10-28 16:44:29 UTC
Keep in mind that the machariel is going to be "re-balanced" soon, so use that piece of information in your decision.
Carmen Electra
AlcoDOTTE
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#5 - 2013-10-28 17:01:57 UTC
Icarus Able wrote:
Mach or Mael are both great.Mach if you can afford it as you can get 100km falloff with Autocannons so range is never an issue.


If by 100 you mean 56, then yes.

Bacon makes us stronger
Kasutra
No Vacancies
No Vacancies.
#6 - 2013-10-28 17:33:00 UTC
Projectiles > Hybrids when dealing with Angels. The damage/resistance profiles just match better.

But note that in Angel space, beating missiles with guns is going to take some time. Guns generally still need quite a bit of skill love.

As for Mael vs. Mach... you're going to start with the Mael regardless, and you're going to move up to the Mach regardless. P

If you prefer long range to short range, just do that. There's no efficiency police to arrest you. Just know that autos fit the (current) Mach's bonuses really well.
Abel Tellor
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2013-10-28 17:51:03 UTC
Thanks for the input folks. I think I found a ship and fit that will suffice for my needs (looks good on paper to me), and will have to try it out later tonight to see how it works in practice. Thanks for your input!
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2013-10-28 18:01:09 UTC
Carmen Electra wrote:
Icarus Able wrote:
Mach or Mael are both great.Mach if you can afford it as you can get 100km falloff with Autocannons so range is never an issue.


If by 100 you mean 56, then yes.



No he means 100, try it with barrage.
Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
#9 - 2013-10-28 18:18:13 UTC
Blasters for amazing DPS, but got to get damn close, Projec are just great all around.
Cyrus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#10 - 2013-10-28 23:07:23 UTC
My Little Pyongyang wrote:
Keep in mind that the machariel is going to be "re-balanced" soon, so use that piece of information in your decision.


As long as it's balanced, the mach is always going to be the best option for PVE ship. If it were nerfed to the pint it were not, then that title would just fall to the Vargur. Autocannons are the best option to go with. The have a better range than blasters and selectable damage types which is the weakness of lasers. Minmatar based ships in general have the agility to use them.

In the event tank is an issue, The vargur has plenty of that at the expense of gunning range and speed. After the bastion mod that will change.
To mare
Advanced Technology
#11 - 2013-10-29 04:42:14 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Carmen Electra wrote:
Icarus Able wrote:
Mach or Mael are both great.Mach if you can afford it as you can get 100km falloff with Autocannons so range is never an issue.


If by 100 you mean 56, then yes.



No he means 100, try it with barrage.

you should try and then you realize you are doing T1 cruiser like dps at that range
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2013-10-29 05:38:44 UTC
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#13 - 2013-10-29 07:49:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
To mare wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Carmen Electra wrote:
Icarus Able wrote:
Mach or Mael are both great.Mach if you can afford it as you can get 100km falloff with Autocannons so range is never an issue.


If by 100 you mean 56, then yes.



No he means 100, try it with barrage.

you should try and then you realize you are doing T1 cruiser like dps at that range


That might be a problem, except it's able to shift along at about 1.5 km/s (I have a zors).

I'm no believer that the mach is the best boat in the skies, but against angels....then for me, it is the best when one considers all things. DPS/speed/tank, other boats can exceed it's capabilities in a single area, perhaps, but are well behind in the others. For example a TFI will outdamage it, but is nowhere near as mobile and has nowhere near the tank, a rattler will outtank it...if you fit it right it might outdamage it too...maybe....but not by enough to sacrifice the mobility/general ease of use being as the rattler is less agile than an oil tanker.

In space other than angels, it is a different ballgame, imo.
Gnadolin
Space Pioneers
#14 - 2013-10-29 08:03:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Gnadolin
I had a Vargur in Angel Space it ran through everything, up 10 8/10 with ease.
Now with Rubicon and the Bastion Module for Marauders i am convenient that even 10/10 will hold no difficulties for this ship.

And thanks for the "four turrets doing the damage of eight guns"-Bonus i even used T2 ammunition for the DED Sites, Hail for everything below 35km, Barrage for everything above that, up to 80km. These Numbers of course will change when considering the Bastion Module.

I paid 2,5 bill for my Vargur including fitting and a stockpile of T2 ammunition and it paid off after one week.

[Vargur, Angel Plex]
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Caldari Navy Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Pith A-Type Explosive Deflection Field
Pith A-Type Kinetic Deflection Field
Caldari Navy Shield Boost Amplifier
Caldari Navy Shield Boost Amplifier

800mm Repeating Artillery II, Hail L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Hail L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Hail L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Hail L
Sisters Core Probe Launcher, Sisters Core Scanner Probe
Small Tractor Beam II
Salvager II

Large Projectile Burst Aerator II
Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard II

Thats what i used.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#15 - 2013-10-29 15:48:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
To mare wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Carmen Electra wrote:
Icarus Able wrote:
Mach or Mael are both great.Mach if you can afford it as you can get 100km falloff with Autocannons so range is never an issue.


If by 100 you mean 56, then yes.



No he means 100, try it with barrage.

you should try and then you realize you are doing T1 cruiser like dps at that range


I'm sure someone can EFT-warrior up the breakpoint where barrage becomes better, but im quite sure its close in enough that barrage is can be the optimal choice while also doing excellent damage.

As for the OP, I know my old corp used to regularly speed tank angel anoms with tornados, getting good dps with 800mm autocannons. This was for relatively low SP characters.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2013-10-29 16:43:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
To mare wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Carmen Electra wrote:
Icarus Able wrote:
Mach or Mael are both great.Mach if you can afford it as you can get 100km falloff with Autocannons so range is never an issue.


If by 100 you mean 56, then yes.



No he means 100, try it with barrage.

you should try and then you realize you are doing T1 cruiser like dps at that range



Half of 1000 dps .....no drones. Basic mechanic says that is 50% damage at optimal+falloff. So how many T1 crusiers match 650 DPS over a 200km sphere again?
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#17 - 2013-10-29 18:32:59 UTC
It's not 1000dps with barrage though, you're nearer the 860 mark, lowers the bar a little Smile
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
#18 - 2013-10-29 20:29:17 UTC
Since you posed a question mark Morrigan LeSante.
Take it from a mostly rattlesnake pilot that angels are the best prey for a rattlesnake together with serpentis and mercs.
Wardens actually work better then bouncers.
The plague with angels is that they are in your face really fast, so you actually need to pack some heavy drones just for Ohh ****.
But realistically with proper target management 95% of your targets should be demolished before making orbit, especially if you just deal with frigates last with light drones.
The natural high resist to explosive and kinetic really add the amount of gank you can fit vs angels.
Thing is if you are serious about flying a rattler you need to have a dozen different fits to instantly swap for different encounters, but the one ship can handle 95% of them with utmost efficiency.
Refitting is also the most efficient way to reload restock unload etc. so no trouble.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#19 - 2013-10-29 23:09:06 UTC
It's more the DPS loss from the sig and speed of angels on the cruises. Drones are fine, but alone....not enough to tip it over the Mach.

RS is an excellent all rounder though.
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
#20 - 2013-10-30 11:01:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Marcus Walkuris
Yeah, that is a factor absolutely.
But very easily offset by focussing BC BS only with missiles.
I don't bother with cruises against most angel cruisers, they are the first thing I aim my sentries at though.
Sentries on cruiser, missiles on BC, kill cruiser off, add drone fire to BC. (for a rotation it seems to work out due to delayed damage application in part).
But yeah missiles as a system are just problematic against angels and having them as a supporting part to drone damage makes 0 sense on a BS platform.


To the original poster.
You should definitely stick with projectile/minmatar ships if gunnery is your cup of tea in Angel space.
Sadly Caldari are a bit silly in the Hybrid weapon BS department.
Gallente tank armor primarily, which means low base exp/kin resists.