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One last attempt at rationally explaining the super nerf
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Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#21 - 2011-11-17 22:46:12 UTC
xxxak wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
death2supercaps


I think this quote, coming from this poaster, pretty much counts as Federally certified evidence for everything I just said above.

i think you need to fire your space lawyer

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Gealla
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2011-11-17 22:46:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Gealla
xxxak wrote:
KrakizBad wrote:
The uber supercap pilot that logged off last night after we tackled him in a sanctum will be madder than you in a few weeks, but not by much.

The peasants look forward to looting your wreck.

Also, your concept of the fair fight is hilarious, please expand on it.


My concept of a fair/fun fight it a fight that is not predetermined before it starts.

Under the new rules, no super pilot will commit his 20-50 bil isk ship unless he knows he can win. Thus, he will simply join the largest alliance possible and require their pets/peasant soldiers to die for his continued glory. Same as before, just with even bigger blobs.


Yeh the Nyx pilot that dropped in on our little gate camp in Providence was all for a fair fight..... he won't be so damn quick after this expansion that's for sure Twisted

You seem to be only looking at one aspect of this whole thing and I think I can safely say it's through a very narrow window tainted by your own desires.....

If this expansion allows the little guys a chance to do their thing without the threat of a scap dropping on them, I say good deal.

I just liked Weaseliors post, i feel dirty
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#23 - 2011-11-17 22:47:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Nova Fox
Unfair? Battlefield dominance is going to back to who can field the largest support fleets again the way it should be.

BTW

ADAPT OR DIE.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#24 - 2011-11-17 22:48:12 UTC
xxxak wrote:
Old EVE:

Supers are OP against a lot of ships, and are used in various ways by their owners. Some of these uses are abusive... but in general supers still die to well run fleets, and there are several "fun" uses for supers in relatively small alliances/fleets.


New EVE:

Lose subcap fight, all your caps/supers on the field die. No one with a supercap is willing to purposefully risk that in a "fair" or "fun" fight.

Thus, supercap alliances don't commit supers as often, but when they do, they only commit supers with massive, unstoppable support, and with massive massive blobs of supers. (See: the DRF facestomp the NC in 2011, with super fleets around 150 ships, and subcap support at 500-1500 ships. There were not a lot of actual fights as the NC died. 95% of the time, the spies simply sized up each fleet, and the FC would disengage if his fleet was smaller.)

Thus, under the new system, superpilots in smaller alliances will see that their smaller alliances never deploy supers, and will leave those alliances. They will join the 3-4 largest alliances in the game, and supers will become even more concentrated, and will be used in even more "unfair" and less-fun ways.

It's true that these changes will reduce the use of small gangs of caps/super caps for hotdrops. But these changes will also result in a massive concentration of wealth/firepower in an even smaller number of player alliances. In the long run, this will further restrict access to 0.0 for younger players, and make EVE a less fun game.

(P.S. The Mittani will finally be on track to ruin EVE, his ultimate stated goal).



So what you're saying is that supercap pilots won't use their ships if they can't logoffski their way out of a fight?


Good!

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#25 - 2011-11-17 22:48:13 UTC
xxxak wrote:
Old EVE:

Supers are OP against a lot of ships, and are used in various ways by their owners. Some of these uses are abusive... but in general supers still die to well run fleets, and there are several "fun" uses for supers in relatively small alliances/fleets.


New EVE:

Lose subcap fight, all your caps/supers on the field die.


This is exactly how it should be. Your capitals are there as support, in specific roles.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#26 - 2011-11-17 22:49:11 UTC
^ truth is golden here

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Jita Alt666
#27 - 2011-11-17 22:52:06 UTC
xxxak wrote:
Jita Alt666 wrote:
1. Super Capitals and Titans were only supposed to be held and used by a few "elite" players.
3. The deployment of Super-capitals and Titans was envisaged to be a show of power in addition to large sub-capital fleets, and
4. Super-capitals and Titans were planned as anti capital platforms.

Because the Super-capital class were essentially immune to the sub-cap class only the very dumb (and alone) Super-capital pilots suffered losses. This led to a proliferation of Super-Capitals that has reduced sov warfare to being:

N Super Caps < N+1 Super Caps

The argument that Super-capital pilots will congeal into large blobs is a laughable.
H-W; 2 biggest Super-Capital blobs in the game
UMI: 2 biggest Super-Capital blobs in the game
LXQ2: 2 biggest Super-Capital blobs in the game
VFK: 1 Biggest Super-Capital blob in the game

You can argue that these blobs were not permanent - however due to the nature of Super-capital mechanics, every alliance NAP since the fall of IT has been about Super-capital dominance.




Actually, that is MY point. What you fail to extrapolate from your own data is that this trend will be EVEN FURTHER MAGNIFIED by the new nerf -- as super pilots will have more reason than ever to be in the N+1 blob rather than the N blob.

Do you understand? Yes / No



1. There is no way you can extrapolate from data that does not exist. Roll
2. The logic you present as new has has been in the back of every Super-Capitals pilots mind since they boarded their coffins.

Why did the NC fail to defend its space. Cause they were worried they couldn't be N+1. The nerf won't make the blobbing worse, as the nerf couldn't make the blobbing worse than it is.

It will just make the blob easier to kill.
Feligast
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2011-11-17 22:53:15 UTC
xxxak wrote:
Under the new rules, no super pilot will commit his 20-50 bil isk ship unless he knows he can win. .


As opposed to what happens NOW, right? I mean, look at all those super pilots jumping into 1 v 1 nyx on nyx action, right?

RIGHT??
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#29 - 2011-11-17 22:53:25 UTC
If supercaps pilots aren't allowed to keep their imba pwnmobiles then they're just going to take their ball and go home.

Risking ship loss and having to actually commit to a fight is for dirty little peon subcappers, not special people like Nyx pilots.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Soi Mala
Whacky Waving Inflatable Flailing Arm Tubemen
#30 - 2011-11-17 22:53:39 UTC
CCP can only do so much with regards to supercaps. They either make them powerful and everyone uses them to beat on the little guys, or they make them vulnerable and they only travel in blobs.

There is nothing you can do about peoples aversion to risk, that is an obstacle that only we as players can overcome.
IGNATIUS HOOD
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2011-11-17 22:59:19 UTC
KrakizBad wrote:
The uber supercap pilot that logged off last night after we tackled him in a sanctum will be madder than you in a few weeks, but not by much.

The peasants look forward to looting your wreck.

Also, your concept of the fair fight is hilarious, please expand on it.



Apparently its now Dodgeball in Spaceships... Do we all get trophies when we're done here?

OP; If its a fair fight you're doing it wrong....
"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."   --H.L. Mencken
xxxak
Perkone
Caldari State
#32 - 2011-11-17 23:03:08 UTC
Jita Alt666 wrote:
xxxak wrote:
Jita Alt666 wrote:
1. Super Capitals and Titans were only supposed to be held and used by a few "elite" players.
3. The deployment of Super-capitals and Titans was envisaged to be a show of power in addition to large sub-capital fleets, and
4. Super-capitals and Titans were planned as anti capital platforms.

Because the Super-capital class were essentially immune to the sub-cap class only the very dumb (and alone) Super-capital pilots suffered losses. This led to a proliferation of Super-Capitals that has reduced sov warfare to being:

N Super Caps < N+1 Super Caps

The argument that Super-capital pilots will congeal into large blobs is a laughable.
H-W; 2 biggest Super-Capital blobs in the game
UMI: 2 biggest Super-Capital blobs in the game
LXQ2: 2 biggest Super-Capital blobs in the game
VFK: 1 Biggest Super-Capital blob in the game

You can argue that these blobs were not permanent - however due to the nature of Super-capital mechanics, every alliance NAP since the fall of IT has been about Super-capital dominance.




Actually, that is MY point. What you fail to extrapolate from your own data is that this trend will be EVEN FURTHER MAGNIFIED by the new nerf -- as super pilots will have more reason than ever to be in the N+1 blob rather than the N blob.

Do you understand? Yes / No



1. There is no way you can extrapolate from data that does not exist. Roll
2. The logic you present as new has has been in the back of every Super-Capitals pilots mind since they boarded their coffins.

Why did the NC fail to defend its space. Cause they were worried they couldn't be N+1. The nerf won't make the blobbing worse, as the nerf couldn't make the blobbing worse than it is.

It will just make the blob easier to kill.


This is the first valid counter argument that I have seen. That is, the hypothesis that the NC vs DRF blob represented the maximum possible concentration of supers in EVE at that time. You might be right about that point.

[u]The nerfs to supercaps will cause more super pilots to join the largest alliances who can properly "support" their deployment, further concentrating firepower/wealth in EVE. The end result will be fewer "fun" fights, and will hurt EVE in the long run.[/u]
Apollo Gabriel
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#33 - 2011-11-17 23:58:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Apollo Gabriel
OP

I understand your point, but I think you are missing something. I think we'll see MANY more fights and smaller fights. You don't want to deploy your supers? well get ready to defend cause the hits are still coming!

let me put it this way, Eve now has consequences for bringing big ships if you cant afford to lose them.
Always ... Never ... Forget to check your references.   Peace out Zulu! Hope you land well!
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