These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Incursions need work

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Charadrass
Angry Germans
#61 - 2013-10-27 12:11:40 UTC
Incursions are fine. except for the mom sites.

Quote:
3. One community can shut down everyone's ability to run incursions.

True, i already posted a suggestion to make the mom killing harder.
Facts: 150 pilotfleet necessary, duration 60+ minutes.

makes it nearly impossible to close an incursions mommy by one community alone. and no i'm not talking about a 150+ man tvp kitchen sink fleet.
you gonna Need 150 pilots. concentrated for about 60 minutes in the best fitted ships available. i think that will be a huge obstacle for most of the communities.
please don't cry that the small communities will lose their ability of killing a mom. grow up or join up with another community.
Solomunio Kzenig
Incursions Missions and Mining
#62 - 2013-10-27 12:17:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Solomunio Kzenig
Overall make Incursions harder, and make the Mom even harder, longer red bar timers, longer time for Mom to spawn and make the Mom site much harder, 120 to 160 ships needed to close the Mom and increase the Mom's HP etc.
Solomunio Kzenig
Incursions Missions and Mining
#63 - 2013-10-27 12:18:52 UTC
Lana Elora wrote:

This changes nothing.
The incursion would spawn, people would grind the bar, kill the mom, move to the next.
All you solve is the "weekend without incursion" problem, but not the actual issue presented by the OP.

A more concrete solution would be as somebody said:
Keep the bar at 95 to 100% for 1 to 5 hours for the mom to spawn, and make it a lot harder to keep 100%
If you don't manage that the mom will spawn at day 6 when the incursion goes into withdrawal regardless of red bar.
This will not only insure that incursions stay up for at least enough time to say, get home from work....
But it will also in some cases keep an incursion alive for up to 6 days.




As an Incursion runner I approve of this.
Zwo Zateki
Doomheim
#64 - 2013-10-27 12:20:23 UTC
Incursions are fine. Enjoy the weekend.

http://cvmkr.com/R4JG
Sicariidae
State War Academy
Caldari State
#65 - 2013-10-27 12:20:33 UTC
Iqqesh Noban wrote:
I totally agree with Gant. Incursions need changes, or there will be no more fun and worth to run incursions due to behavior of some Incursions HQ communities.


This is the main problem, your sense of entitlement. If no one is actually breaking any game mechanics by exploiting the game then people can do whatever they like, and if it hurts your feelings or diminishes your game experience then do something about it "IN" game. Don't cry to the game makers to make changes so you can be happy.
Charadrass
Angry Germans
#66 - 2013-10-27 12:22:05 UTC
Add to my suggestion:
in the mom site install 2x4 acceleration gates, where the fleet has to split up and move through before encountering the mommy. different tasks must be completed in order to active the next accleration gates on both sides etc.
use your imagination.
Miss Monty
Doomheim
#67 - 2013-10-27 12:28:13 UTC
Charadrass wrote:
Add to my suggestion:
in the mom site install 2x4 acceleration gates, where the fleet has to split up and move through before encountering the mommy. different tasks must be completed in order to active the next accleration gates on both sides etc.
use your imagination.



Mmm then you guys would take that little bit longer to take out the mothership. I wonder if your community could accomplish the same result any other way?

Even those communities who repeatedly use the game mechanics as they are, at will, are not always happy when it isn't their decision. It's great. This is Eve.
Kranyoldlady
Women's cave
#68 - 2013-10-27 12:29:38 UTC
Charadrass wrote:
Incursions are fine. except for the mom sites.

Quote:
3. One community can shut down everyone's ability to run incursions.

True, i already posted a suggestion to make the mom killing harder.
Facts: 150 pilotfleet necessary, duration 60+ minutes.

makes it nearly impossible to close an incursions mommy by one community alone. and no i'm not talking about a 150+ man tvp kitchen sink fleet.
you gonna Need 150 pilots. concentrated for about 60 minutes in the best fitted ships available. i think that will be a huge obstacle for most of the communities.
please don't cry that the small communities will lose their ability of killing a mom. grow up or join up with another community.



Even if the incursions as a whole or mom sites or grinding the bar will become harder, it wont take long before people adapt and come to the forums again to cry for changes, wich makes your good idea only prospone the issue instead of solving it
Charadrass
Angry Germans
#69 - 2013-10-27 12:35:17 UTC
compared to the normal incursion pilot it's pretty hard to have 150+ pilots concentrated for over 60 minutes. so it won't be that easy.
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog
B.L.U.E L.A.S.E.R.
#70 - 2013-10-27 13:07:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog
Best solution: make pilots go suspect when they shoot the mom.

Communities can still contest each other in sites, but when it comes time to shut it down, working together becomes paramount. You'll likely have to have one non-shiny fleet to kill the mom, another to deal with spawns, and yet another to protect against griefers. Or, you can try to pop it as normal, and risk another community coming in and blasting your whole suspect fleet into scrap.

That would add some nice flavor, and be an easy change.

I am not an alt of Chribba.
Blizzaro
Vahalla La
Rainbow Knights
#71 - 2013-10-27 13:16:50 UTC
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog wrote:
Best solution: make pilots go suspect when they shoot the mom.

Communities can still contest each other in sites, but when it comes time to shut it down, working together becomes paramount. You'll likely have to have one non-shiny fleet to kill the mom, another to deal with spawns, and yet another to protect against griefers. Or, you can try to pop it as normal, and risk another community coming in and blasting your whole suspect fleet into scrap.

That would add some nice flavor, and be an easy change.


This is a brilliant example of why CCP shouldn't change current mechanics
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog
B.L.U.E L.A.S.E.R.
#72 - 2013-10-27 13:18:41 UTC
Durka'durka Zu'lander wrote:
Hmm ... long post lost to preview button .. fk it, here's the summary:

1) Fix respawn timers: This should not even be debated imo. If CCP is worried about the effect on the economy, see pt 2

2) Invert pay-out penalty: It doesn't make sense to me that Concord pays less while sites are harder.. Inverting the pay-out penalty will encourage fleets not to skip hard sites under influence, and will reward the people who put in the most effort instead of the leeches who just wait for easy-isk. For me this addresses the main issue which imo is a mind-set one - people think it's ok to ruin everyone elses fun because incursions for them = risk-free isk rather than hard-fought battles. This also limits the time that people can get max payout, which in turn limits the effect of insta-spawning incursions on the economy.

3) Fix red-bar degredation: Make it slower ... this could even be a fixed 2-day timer or something. What you want is for people to have to make a decision when a new incursion spawns: Stay for less payout, or move for more? If everyone moves, you run the risk of losing the LP, but you also can't force the mom to spawn too fast. For me this has 2 key benefits:
a) New communities form which specialise in closing out < 50% influence incursions, and have lower barriers to entry (newbie friendly). Older communities move when they choose to move, and earn higher isk but at higher risk.
b) Bickering over the mom virtually disappears as the fleets who generally are involved in said bickering have already moved on to the next site.

4) Make the mom kill mean something: At the moment, one fleet can grind for hours to get the red bar blue, and then another (potentially weaker) fleet can just warp in and ruin their day by killing the mom. Initially I thought "Just suspend concord inside mom sites - let them fight it out", but given the bickering over losing a contest (30mil isk), I'm not sure what would happen if people started losing their 5 bil Vindi's! Free PVP would probably also draw griefers to incursions like a fly to ... jam? So instead, how about a gate-key that drops from 1 random site while influence >50% but is tradable? The fleet that finds the key gets to decide who closes out the incursion. If/when they leave to a new high influence incursion they can sell / donate the key to one of the "Newbie incursion" communities. Alternatively, entrance to the site could be based on more realtime data - e.g. only the fleet with the highest avg damage+healing in the past 6 hrs is allowed in.

I know I am new to incursions (and EVE in general), but that is my 2p


I came to this thread to post he idea you had as #4' and it's a good one, simple to implement and adding a whole new dynamic that will take a long time to sort out. I'd just say the mom gives suspect flags though, not a full suspension of CONCORD. Then people can either cooperate after days of competition, or watch all that LP they fought over withdraw into the depths of space :)

I am not an alt of Chribba.
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog
B.L.U.E L.A.S.E.R.
#73 - 2013-10-27 13:19:56 UTC
Blizzaro wrote:
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog wrote:
Best solution: make pilots go suspect when they shoot the mom.

Communities can still contest each other in sites, but when it comes time to shut it down, working together becomes paramount. You'll likely have to have one non-shiny fleet to kill the mom, another to deal with spawns, and yet another to protect against griefers. Or, you can try to pop it as normal, and risk another community coming in and blasting your whole suspect fleet into scrap.

That would add some nice flavor, and be an easy change.


This is a brilliant example of why CCP shouldn't change current mechanics


Because you're terrified of PvP, incapable of dealing with new things, or unable to figure out how to cooperate?

I am not an alt of Chribba.
Iqqesh Noban
The dwarves in the mountains
#74 - 2013-10-27 13:22:59 UTC
Sicariidae wrote:

This is the main problem, your sense of entitlement. If no one is actually breaking any game mechanics by exploiting the game then people can do whatever they like, and if it hurts your feelings or diminishes your game experience then do something about it "IN" game. Don't cry to the game makers to make changes so you can be happy.


I agree with you on the fact that we can't just ask to game makers to do changes every time that we encounter some disappointment in the game (like gankers, etc...) but today it's the whole high sec incursion community that's affected by this 'issue'.

And about doing something about it 'in game', what can we do except making respect between incursions communities (If we lose a site, then we lose it...that's all, next site..), or then war, or for me, leave incursions that i enjoy to do...

Peace.

And sorry for my bad english.
Miss Monty
Doomheim
#75 - 2013-10-27 13:35:01 UTC
YES! That is exactly what incursions need, a magic key which spawns randomly to just one player at a certain point of sansha influence. What is better than any community being able to pop the mothership? No one of course.

It could be like pokemon, gotta collect them all. Please, CCP can they do battle too? Meantime, in Incursions the isk grind continues uninterrupted.
ExookiZ
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#76 - 2013-10-27 13:36:32 UTC
Slash high sec incursions rewards substantially its obscenely high. Anyone compalining about "risk" or incursions being "hard" clearly have never experienced end game PVE, as its all a cake walk compared to sleepers. The fact that you all fly such blinged out ships is proof that you know your not going to die.

Highsec incursions should be a stepping stone, learn how they work, play around with them before moving onto the real thing in low/null. They should not be a end in of themselves.

Event Organizer of EVE North East
Zand Vor
OpSec.
Wrong Hole.
#77 - 2013-10-27 13:38:33 UTC
So I'm a new Incursion runner, but have played Eve off and on for a few years now.

The best part of Incursions is the community aspect it has built up. I'd hate to see that go away. I spent quite a bit of time in various Incursion community channels, and I chose to run with WTM specifically because it caters to a more fun gameplay meta rather than requiring the best ships and shiny mods. It is extremely welcoming to newer players and pilots. It seems a bit of a an odd dichotomy that we would ask simply for the content to require even better ships. Eve is the only game I have played in 13 years of MMOs where a brand new pilot can join in on almost any content and be a welcome addition.

That being said, I agree I'd like to see the mechanics of the Incursions deepen and complexity increase the relative difficulty. There are mechanics that can be used both in the strategy of the Incursion itself and in requiring Fleet tactics to increase difficulty without alienating those who are new or can't afford the best of the best ships.

Regarding the Incursion respawn mechanic, I'd suggest to adjust the way the Influence Bar is handled: Any given Incursion site should have a random chance of spawning a gateway to a Mothership site once the site is cleared. Each mothership kill is the only way the Influence Bar is lowered. Once the bar reaches 0%, that system is freed, but you still have to clear the next system in the affected constellation. Combine this with spreading out the spawn types of HQ/AS/VG's between all the systems affected in the constellation. This would largely eliminate the issues of contest, increase difficulty (your are always fighting under some level of Influence), and at least make the despawn of an Incursion somewhat predictable.

Please fix wormhole combat sites: c1 20mil - c2 40 mil - c3 80 mil - c4 160 mil - c5 320 mil - c6 640 mil
Blizzaro
Vahalla La
Rainbow Knights
#78 - 2013-10-27 13:45:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Blizzaro
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog wrote:
Blizzaro wrote:
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog wrote:
Best solution: make pilots go suspect when they shoot the mom.

Communities can still contest each other in sites, but when it comes time to shut it down, working together becomes paramount. You'll likely have to have one non-shiny fleet to kill the mom, another to deal with spawns, and yet another to protect against griefers. Or, you can try to pop it as normal, and risk another community coming in and blasting your whole suspect fleet into scrap.

That would add some nice flavor, and be an easy change.


This is a brilliant example of why CCP shouldn't change current mechanics


Because you're terrified of PvP, incapable of dealing with new things, or unable to figure out how to cooperate?


No because it is a moronic idea no one would get LP ever again.

I will explain why.

It would be a zero risk strategy for a second fleet to alpha targets one by one leaving the first fleet on site with no way to fight back effectively essentially turning it into a duck shoot.
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#79 - 2013-10-27 13:48:30 UTC
Reading a lot and thinking along the lines of the influence bar and how that could help.

Add an influence bar specifically for the Kundalini site when it spawns the influence in the Kundalini site is at 100% and decreases as external sites are cleared. Effectively making the site unmanageable at 100%, and still extremely dangerous at 25%, and only comparable to the current site when it is at 0% , so the impetus to end the incursion is tempered by the desire to get your fleet out alive.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Durka'durka Zu'lander
Zu'lander Centre For Kids Who Can't Read Good
#80 - 2013-10-27 14:07:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Durka'durka Zu'lander
Miss Monty wrote:
Now I hear people say that it's about Eve players being able to participate in their chosen activity, however when the miners are killed or the industrialists ganked, or sov is lost or any of the other accepted outcomes of Eve gameplay, people are not free to carry on their chosen activities without readjusting.


In every other case that you have mentioned, it is within the victims' power to alter the outcome of their engagement. With incursions it is not. That is the entire point of this thread, and one which you have either missed or chosen to ignore. No-one is saying "boohoo we lost a contest" here, what we're saying is "if someone wants to kick over my sand castle, I should either be able to stop him or be able to build another one"