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What we can deduce about the "Terrans", our ancient ancestors? "Proto Eda Datacore&am

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Roga Dracor
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1 - 2011-11-17 14:27:57 UTC
The Amarr have ancient tales of New Eden, guided by the Church to which they ascribe themselves. The entire cluster under one banner. Is there a hint of truth to these tales, or are they simply myth? Ancient stone tablets found in some locations seem to hint at a unified catholic church, a diverse, but, coexistant body of believers in an omnipotent godforce, and a "reason for our existence".

Are there clues, or solid proof, that these tales reflect some truth to our roots beyond the Eve Gate?

Do the myriad religions we know today, have some proto religion in common?

I believe there are. I believe they do.

*datastream interrupted*

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.

Roga Dracor
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#2 - 2011-11-17 14:28:41 UTC
*static*

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.

Wyke Mossari
Staner Industries
#3 - 2011-11-17 15:38:41 UTC

I've done a little research in that idea but not found much in the way of solid clues beyond some basic runic associations.

A starting point is Urreligion
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#4 - 2011-11-17 16:00:43 UTC
I am of the belief that the groups that initially settled in New Eden were very fractured and coming from widely different solar systems that had already been colonized before the discovery if the wormhole to New Eden. As example, we got the Gallente descending from inhabitants of Tau Ceti and the Amarr coming from the planet of Soekheviti. Both had been settled there for thousand of years and likely did not regard themselves as Terrans. I therefore dismiss the idea of Terrans as some unified group that all of the empires are descending from.

In fact, we are properly in a state right now were the population of New Eden is much less fractured than when the EVE Gate was open, due to a lot of minor factions perishing during the dark times after the gates closure and the survivors being forced to co-operate. Later, the organization into four major empires has brought the majority of people of New Eden even further together.

Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook 

Wyke Mossari
Staner Industries
#5 - 2011-11-17 16:13:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Wyke Mossari
I think what underlays the idea of proto-languages and 'proto-religions' is that fragments of an original survive and are encapsulated in the many different version of the new. In the same way that Christmas has strong origins in Pagan Winter Festivals that pre-date Christianity, or that Abrahamic teachings exist in Islam, Judaism and Christianity.

I think fragments of 'Terran' cultures will survive and also think of 'Terran' as having a wider semantic as cultures from Earth but pre-Eve Gate opening and collapse, when the people that possessed that culture were not actual Earth born.

Something else to consider, on the wider Paleolithic religion.
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#6 - 2011-11-17 16:33:07 UTC
True, Wyke. But as there does not appear to have been some unifying element for a lot of things, religion included, since "now" (as in Earth 2011 AD) and the far future of EVE, one must expect that any "proto" elements dating back to the EVE Gates closure must come from something even before our current (2011) time. Not saying they do not exist, but we are not talking sci-fi then; we are talking real ancient Earth history.Smile

Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook 

Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
#7 - 2011-11-17 20:25:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Deviana Sevidon
Yes, but it is probably difficult to find inform and and extract fact from myth.

Some knowledge must exist, the YC time is an example, but I doubt everything is known. The dark age after the collapse of the EVE gate was shorter then what the other races with the exception of the Jove and the lost civilisations (Sleeper. Talocan, Yan-Jung, maybe Takhmahl) experienced. But for various political reasons the info might be hidden away from the public.

Gallente and Caldari fared worse. The Caldari lost at one point all advanced technology (Cold Wind chronicle) and the pre-gallente civilisation also collapsed with only the larger settlements surviving.

From the Minmatar their is little information on how much knowledge they were able to preserve, but the day of darkness and the following Amarr occupation destroyed most if not all about the knowledge of their origins.

....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced.

Roga Dracor
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#8 - 2011-11-17 21:00:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
Your premises reside on the bold assumption that what you percieve as Earth history conforms to the prehistory of Eve, which is a blank mountain upon which a few hasty scribbles have been made. The most obvious is the schism that occured between the Unified Catholic Church and the Conformists, the birth of the Amarr Empire to come.

The Sleeper enclaves recognize two somehow fundamentally different technologies, Terran and Talocan. Not Yan Jung, who are also known to have migrated through the eve gate, nor Conformist, which should also be a viable nomenclature. What was brought through the gate was Terran technology, the culmination of which was likely the Eve Gate itself..

A unified central authority is the only thing that would have allowed such diverse, open colonization.. The creation of the gates themselves was likely a concerted effort, most especially if it was the fading hope of humanity.. The Milky Way is probably in the post mortem throes of heat death..

There was no such thing as "free territory" to the Terrans, the many diverse breeds of them. They were Terraforming planets on this side of the gate.

There are many valid arguments for a central authority of the Terrans. Even if it was a mediating body like Concord.

And in closing, it was supposed to be an in character fiction piece, guess I shoulda noted that in the heading.. PLol

P.S. The Conformists were driven off Soekhiviti early on, no further mention of where they reside, they could have become a migrant culture..Blink

The Conformists who entered the Eve Gate considered themselves Amarrians (Atharvan) or Fire Priests of a Zoroastrian type Religion.

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.

Roga Dracor
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#9 - 2011-11-17 22:09:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
As far as Urreligion, no, sorry, can't buy it.. We have been told by Devs Zoroastrianism for the Amarr.. The Intaki obviously practice an eastern religion like Bhuddism, the Sister's of Eve a trinity godhead, I would bet the Caldari religion to be akin to Shinto, even the gallente seem to practice a New Age religion of some sort. So a Unified Catholic Church makes alot of sense.

AND it is a hat's off to Frank Herbert's Orange Catholic Bible.. A Bible that incorporates and all the major religious scriptures into a better understanding of the relationship between man and god..

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.

Aggressive Nutmeg
#10 - 2011-11-20 02:52:55 UTC
Surely we'd be atheists in the future? Can't imagine any advanced race clinging to religious beliefs.

Never make eye contact with someone while eating a banana.

Roga Dracor
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#11 - 2011-11-20 14:33:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
Can't imagine an advanced race surviving without it..Lol

Give me a bit to finish the story, guys..

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.

Roga Dracor
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#12 - 2011-11-20 15:25:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
Religion can be many things to different groups, the guiding principle for those who embrace the Theosophist movement is; "There is no Religion higher than Truth".

In the Zoroastrian faith, we have this; "Holiness (Asha) is the best of all good.
It is also happiness. Happy [is] the man who is holy with perfect holiness!"

Christ told those who wished to understand him to question everything your senses and your innermost thoughts reveal to you. There are more senses than most scientists give credit for, because they haven't yet quantified them. Just because you can't see the wind, doesn't mean it isn't there.

If a man is holding you at gunpoint, ready to shoot you for your wallet, and he has a flash of conscience, revelation, or simply following his heart, he could be said to be listening to God, in which case, God has affected real change in the world, whether you believe in him or not. As a "factor" by which we can see "cause and effect", God is very real.

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.

Roga Dracor
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#13 - 2011-11-22 02:30:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
Okies, I have decided to push back the in character fiction portion and let you in on what brought me to the conclusions I have. Yes, much of it is wiki'ed and totally out of character. But it ties many of the clusters customs and religions into a realizable context to reach in character, because it fits.. I don't need to "make it up". And the puzzle is far from complete. this may take some edits..

Enter Zoroastrianism and the Persian Empire.. Contemporaries to many of the early religions and empires of Earth.

I am not saying the Amarr religion is Zoroastrianism any more, nor that it was ever called Zoroastrianism. But, it was the blueprint for the roots of the Amarr religion. The Amarr "God" is very likely called Oruze (Greek Oromasdes)(Avestan Ohrmuzd). The Amarr religion was fostered in an advanced, philosophically inclined environment. Much like the middle east was on earth, hence my thoughts that perhaps society was led by a church of some sort on the other side of the gate, there is precedent in many sci fi works.

The Achaemenid Empire is not the Terran Empire or the Conformists Old Amarr, but, likewise, it is the blueprint for the fall and rise of the New Amarr. Cyrus the great was a benevolent dictator, very tolerant of wide varying opinions on the sciences. Under his sponsorship, religions burgeoned and spread across the landscape of our history. Likely, someone(s) like this was\were running things in the Terran sphere.

A great many of Persia's religions are directly expressed by the apparent religions of New Eden. The less apparent, as well were welcomed under Cyrus. This means that Jews, Early Christians, Gnostics, Zoroastrians, Bhuddists and a host of others sat around bantering about their cosmogonistic beliefs.

The Conformists originally practiced a religion that could have been Zoroastrianism in this later theoretical age of man. The main religion itself is termed Mazdaism. There were many Sects to Zoroastrianism, much like Christianity. Even the basics of the Takhmal and the EoM and the Sani Sabik\BloodRaiders (Materialist Zurvanism) are outlined in Zoroastrianism, influenced heavily by gnosticism and greek philosophy.

Manichaeism is the more probable direct reference for Conformism, in my mind. There is a Mani solar system in Amarr space. It conforms to the environment it finds itself in.. It expressly uses the term "Father" as an acronym for God.

Another interesting religion from Persia that is associated with Zoroastrianism, Bhuddism and Hindu, Baha'i.

Many Islamic philosophies, most especially medical philosophies influenced the Persian culture as well, physicians like Avicenna and disciplines like Unani Medicine and Soma. All important clues to define cultures and history.

The Humorism of above metioned medical practices bring us closer to understanding what the Blood Raiders are really about.

The Amarr are the premiere physicians, with the possible exception of the Jove. They eschew cloning in favor of more traditional medical methods.

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.

Telegram Sam
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2011-11-22 22:23:02 UTC
Addressing only a portion of the topic (the part about ties to Terran ancestors)....
It seems that Terran cultural influence carried over fairly strongly into the four races' cultures. Some evidence:

-In the novel EVE: The Empyrean Age, an ordinary Caldari Navy pilot is able to read an inscription on an ancient Terran structure outside the EVE Gate. (It is something very mundane-- the name of joint industrial development project, if believe).

-Several Caldari symbols found in the official canon use stylized Roman alphabet characters. The characters still seem to represent the same phonetic sounds as in current times (2011 C.E.). Examples (from another thread)-- Caldari State symbol “C”; Nugeoeihuvi corp symbol “NOH”

-Many ships of all races are named after Terran animals, items and mythological creatures/characters. Examples:

  • Wolf, Jaguar, Cheetah, Ibis, Condor, Heron, Kestrel, Osprey, Merlin, Raven, Scorpion, Panther, Hyena, Buzzard, Rook, Falcon, Badger, Crane
  • Broadsword, Rapier, Sabre, Scimitar, Claymore
    Hyperion, Myrmidon, Harpy, Cerberus, Ares, Phobos, Deimos, Proteus, Cerberus, Talos, Thanatos, Charon, Chimera, Manticore, Basilisk, Wyvern, Phoenix, Paladin, Tristan, Loki, Ragnarok, Abaddon, Ark, Leviathan, Ishtar, Rokh, Kitsune, Tengu

Are the ships actually named after ancient Terran animals? Or are they named after similar animals the settlers found in New Eden? For example, did the early Caldari find a small predatory flying animal and call it a “kestrel” after the Terran creature? And a similar one that preys on water creatures, so that they called it an “osprey”? Whether they’re named after ancient Terran animals or analogous New Eden creatures, they still seems to show a strong link to Terra. The same for the mythological beings, such as Charon, Loki, Ares and the Rokh.

And finally, note the names taken directly from the Christian Bible: Abaddon, Ark and Leviathan.

So it seems to me that Terran culture did carry over pretty strongly into New Eden.
Roga Dracor
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#15 - 2011-11-23 22:50:54 UTC
Telegram Sam wrote:
Addressing only a portion of the topic (the part about ties to Terran ancestors)....
It seems that Terran cultural influence carried over fairly strongly into the four races' cultures. Some evidence:

-In the novel EVE: The Empyrean Age, an ordinary Caldari Navy pilot is able to read an inscription on an ancient Terran structure outside the EVE Gate. (It is something very mundane-- the name of joint industrial development project, i believe).



Thx Sam, I really need to read those damn novels someday! The above further illustrates that it was likely a joint venture building the Eve Gates.. In character evidence for a small part of my proposition..

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.

Roga Dracor
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#16 - 2011-11-23 22:53:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
Thx CCP, I got ganked.. =)

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.

Roga Dracor
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#17 - 2011-11-27 14:14:50 UTC
Following the breadcrumbs and applying deductive reasoning, would not colonization be hampered by the fact that several factions were vying for control of the Eve wormhole? It was after all, a doorway to resources that were nearly exhausted in their places of origin.

Would colonization even have happened if that were the case? I find it unreasonable that two massive stargates were built by a society that was basically fighting a war of attrition with other factions and then let the enemy through said stargates in large numbers, many non military, at that. It just doesn't make sense..

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.

Roga Dracor
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#18 - 2011-11-27 15:57:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
Enter Theosophy and the New Age movement.

After several changes and iterations Theosophy's declared objectives became the following:
1.To form a nucleus of the Universal Brotherhood of Humanity, without distinction of race, creed, sex, caste, or color.
2.To encourage the study of Comparative Religion, Philosophy, and Science.
3.To investigate the unexplained laws of Nature and the powers latent in man.

"There is no Religion higher than Truth".

Is this the basis for a "Unified Catholic Church"? Of note, The Church Universal and Triumphant and the Rosicrucians.

Theosophy believes in evolution through Root Races based on the number seven. It states that mankind is currently moving toward the apex of the Aryan race. At present, humanity's evolution is at the fifth stage, or Round, the so-called Aryan Root race, which is developing on its appointed geologic/climatic period.

And the racial divisions of the 4th Root Race are as follows;
1.the Rmoahal
2.the Tlavati (Cro-Magnons)
3.the Toltec (a term which Theosophists use as a synonym for American Indians)
4.the Turanian
5.the (original) Semites (e.g., the Phoenicians)
6.the Akkadians, and
7.the Mongolian, which migrated to and colonized East Asia.

Generally speaking, a large percentage of the people who live in the time of the period of the fifth root race are part of the fifth root race. So by extension, most of the colonists who entered the Gate were Aryans, if the theorum bears out.


"The Aryan races, for instance, now varying from dark brown, almost black, red-brown-yellow, down to the whitest creamy colour, are yet all of one and the same stock - the Fifth Root-Race." i.e. Terrans.

The makeup of the Aryan Root Race is as follows;
1. Hindu
2. Arabian
3. Persian
4. Celtic
5. Teutonic
6. Australo-American
7. In the future, the seventh root race will arise from the seventh subrace of the sixth root race, which arises from the Australo Americans. I could not find a connotation for the seventh subrace of the Aryans.. The Jove, perhaps?

This makes the Australo-American race the progenitor of the sixth Root race. The conclusion I have come to is that the Matari are the 6th Root race, the Australo-Americans, loosely, anyway.. This explains why there were seven conceptualized Matari tribes..

From the Matari will spring the new race, which logically follows as the Enhuadanni. And gives a reason as to why the Enhuadanni are concerned with saving the Matari peoples, or one tribe in particular, they are their ancestors. At least that is what I have come to believe, and have seen nothing in canon that disputes the view. Though, if anyone can debunk it, please do, I may indeed be too invested in the theory..

Of note, the "old" races don't disappear, they live side by side with the other races, slowly evolving into new incarnations.

P.S. To those who wish to dwell on the bigotry and hate associated with race consider these passages by the Theosophists,

Regarding the relations between the Negro race and other races in the Western Hemisphere, Bailey wrote that it "constitutes a very ugly story, seriously implicates the white man and provides an outstanding disgrace", and that "The white people face a grave responsibility and it lies in their hands to change conditions."

Also, "Right human relations must be firmly established between the emerging Negro empire and the rest of the world; the new ideals and the new world trends must be fostered in the receptive Negro consciousness and in this way darkest Africa will become a radiant center of light, ready for self-government and expressing true freedom."

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.

Vallek Arkonnis
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2011-11-27 18:48:09 UTC
Aggressive Nutmeg wrote:
Surely we'd be atheists in the future? Can't imagine any advanced race clinging to religious beliefs.


Define "advanced". Every civilization thinks they're modern, yet religion has permeated every single one. We may have more knowledge than our ancient ancestors but we are not more intelligent. If we are to learn from our past, religion is part of the human condition, it's not going anywhere.
Roga Dracor
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#20 - 2011-12-05 05:28:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
Carrying these lines of reasoning to a logical course or courses, what is it that religions around the world today stress as the course to enlightenment? I would argue that a surrender of the self and the preoccupation with the worldly experience, the abandoning of material existence is the key to ascension.

Even the myths of the Matari associated with the Sleepers speak of their world weariness and wish for a peaceful coexistance. Very religious and philisophical ideals. Very likely aspirants of a Unified Catholic Church..IMHO

If cloning is commonplace for your society, how old might you be?

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.

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