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Varg vs Mach.
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BabySeal Clubber
KittehsofDoOoOoM
#1 - 2013-10-23 22:26:09 UTC
Hey just wondering on opinions for a Vargur vs. a Mach in solo/duo missioning.

I can fly the mach fully fit atm, and the varg would take about 20 more days or so. I do dual-box and can salvage my own missions, but prefer to keep the alt on the blueprints/trading in station. My question is which is the better for missioning in your opinions and why?
Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2013-10-24 08:54:20 UTC
It's difficult to say at this point because the Mach I'd due to be 'rebalanced' soon. As things currently stand I would say that it depends on ur play style.

If u like sniping from a distance then probably the Mach because it has more raw dps than the varg while having the same bonus to range.

However the varg has much better tank and so can get closer to the rats to apply more dps. When rubicon comes out the style of play I will use is to snipe frigs from afar with the varg. Then jump or mwd into the cruisers and bs, activate bastion and pop them up close and personal.

This will mean that I'm firing in low falloff or even maybe optimal to apply more damage than the Mach would at range. It will also make salvaging the wrecks much easier reducing missioning time further and increasing isk/hour.
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2013-10-24 15:09:07 UTC
BabySeal Clubber wrote:
Hey just wondering on opinions for a Vargur vs. a Mach in solo/duo missioning.

I can fly the mach fully fit atm, and the varg would take about 20 more days or so. I do dual-box and can salvage my own missions, but prefer to keep the alt on the blueprints/trading in station. My question is which is the better for missioning in your opinions and why?



vargur is better simply because of the better tank. also, you could use faction ammo cheap but in a mach, you wont use faction ammo because of 7 guns and increase ROF. also marauder gets bastion module in new expansion giving it alot more options for fittings.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#4 - 2013-10-24 15:30:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
Machariel, because I have both BS skills at lvl 5. And because you break 600m/s with an afterburner while having cruiser agility. And can use 4 sentry drones. And can fit 3 gyros, 3 TEs, and a damage control. AND you have that sweet sweet ENORMOUS base HP on all 3 layers. Also nearly twice the scan resolution.

The vargur does tank better, but that's what deadspace and overloading is for. I am jealous of the faction ammo usage however.

Once bastion mode is in, and the mach receives a slight nerf to something (i'm betting its base HP and its capacitor), then we can re-examine what is best for what.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Kithran
#5 - 2013-10-24 17:51:15 UTC
I think at the moment its Machariel over Vargur, especially if you are not salvaging with the Vargur.

Once Bastion is introduced the answer depends on what opponents you are facing - the ability to ignore ewar could make certain serpentis, sansha and gurista missions a lot simpler.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#6 - 2013-10-24 18:10:37 UTC
Vargur over mach, and heres why.

When you run a mission in the system of origin, a fully fitted Mach and Noctis combo will have the slight edge, especially on missions with few rooms. When you mission in a system one jump away or more, the Vargur wins every time. If your alt is an alt account you can just keep doing industry and trading the whole time. You will definitely make more ISK that way in my experience.

The Mach does have better range, and is faster, but id you throw a MWD onto the Vargur for missions that you need it, like WC for example, the Vargur really does a great job. I always fought with the mach rather stationary anyway, because of my skill with sentries. The added DPS is too much to pass up. You don't want to kill anything outside of tractor range on the Vargur, but getting into tractor range isn't really a problem. I easily fit 4 RF gyros on the Vargur and get plenty of range. The other thing is the tracking on the vargur is amazing. I split my guns into 2 groups and use a sensor booster with scan resolution script and blap frigs/destroyers twice as fast as the Mach.

To be perfectly fair, when I first traded the Mach in for the Vargur, I thought I made a bad mistake. I didn't like the micromanagement, and my bounty ticks were smaller. Once I played around with the fit and the methodology, It was a no brainer. After Rubicon, I am confident the Vargur will be much better. I have about 3 days till I can use bastion mode on the test server and will know for sure then.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#7 - 2013-10-24 18:52:46 UTC
I have a armor mach and 2 vargurs. The mach is overall better, it is faster(1250m/s vs 1600m/s), got more range(4 TCs vs 2 TC and 1 TE), can lock stuff a lot faster and got the slightly better dps(4 gyros on both). However the dps difference is not that big because you can use faction ammo on a Vargur while it is pointless on the mach most of the time(to high rof, 7 turrets and it doesn't change the amount of volleys except for BS). Also a huge damage advantage comes with sentry drones, so if you don't use them, the difference might be even smaller.

You can tank the vargur better(what is not necessary for L4) but with the much lower signature I actually like the 300 dps armor tank more than the 400 dps shield tank. Other advantages are that you can carry all ammo types in bigger quantity's with the vargur what can be nice if you take missions with the 2. char while keeping the BS in space or for running plexes/annos. The last thing might be that it consumes a lot less ammo, so it is better suited to run pve in low sec or 0.0, where you can't get 20k ammo at the next station, but need to haul a lot on your own.

I actually don't like the upcoming bastion changes for the Vargur, since it loses one sentry and 130m/s(it was over 300m/s in the first iteration what was plain bad), because I don't really found the stop and go game play with bastion effective(as for higher applied dps or quicker missions) and I think mobility is very important on a AC ship, since it can improve your applied dps a lot, speed up ways to the gates/spawns and contributes much to the fun flying the hulls.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#8 - 2013-10-24 19:08:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
CIpher seems to have it right. I should have mentioned that I'm not much of a mission runner. When I do them its for standings or an epic arc, and when I feel like salvaging its for the noctis. I was merely considering speed, damage projection and application, style points, and usability. If you're going to salvage (and isk-wise you should), marauders are probably the way to go. For Rubicon, Marauders look pretty beast-mode.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
GordonO
BURN EDEN
#9 - 2013-10-24 19:29:33 UTC
I prefer the mach simply because you can better apply the damage by being very mobile. I have a 100mn and its cap stable running it. I boost with an XL booster when its needed and have no problems with tank. With 4 x Gyro's and 3 TE's it works really well and I doubt this incoming nerf is going to make it any less useable. The same theory crafting happened with the tengu and HML's and they are still damn good at what they do.
I don't like salvaging with a maruader as it slows you down quite a bit.
If you not sure, jump on the test server and give them a try to see what you prefer.

... What next ??
stoicfaux
#10 - 2013-10-24 19:30:10 UTC
MWD Mach is better than the Vargur because
* it can close the range faster, thus reducing DPS loss to falloff,
* it's much more agile,
* it's one stop shopping, i.e. no need to switch to a "fast" ship to blitz certain missions like Recon or Dread Pirate.
* can put out 4 heavy TP/Web drones
* has a large buffer
* can armor or shield tank it

Downsides are:
* expensive to fit,
* have to actively fly it (you have to be careful not to overshoot your target and screw up transveral)
* CCP has announced plans to nerf it
* looks like a bent phallus


Vargur is better than MWD Mach because:
* super easy to tank (Pithum C-type MSB)
* can be effectively cap stable with a Pithum C-Type MSB
* can salvage/loot on the fly
* you don't have to actively fly it, i.e. sit and shoot
* cheaper ammo
* come Rubicon, you can MJD faster then you can AB/MWD, i.e. you may be able to close the range faster than the MWD Mach to reduce falloff DPS loss
* come Rubicon, bastion module reduces the number of tank modules you need
* much, much, much cheaper to fit
* RF/T2 ammo is more affordable
* come Rubicon, will warp a little faster than the Mach
* come Rubicon, bastion mode makes Vargur immune to ewar

Downsides are:
* has the agility of a barn with a broken leg,
* takes forever for the MWD to get up to speed,
* having to buy RF/T2 ammo
* round sails

I think that I would rather fly a Vargur than a MWD Mach because
a) my MWD Mach is expensive, (i.e. could become a gank target)
b) the Vargur is more sedate to fly, (i.e. I'm lazy)
c) loot/salvage on the fly
d) bastion mode is just awesomely overtanked
e) doesn't look like a bent phallus


Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#11 - 2013-10-24 19:38:06 UTC
With the added range Ill be able to throw a tracking script in the mid slot i already have for TC on the Vargur, drop the TE from a low, and throw in a nano. I'll be able to drop the SEBO due to the increased sensor strength, and drop a tank slot (already only running 3 slot tank) and hopefully throw in a MJD. So I'll be able to have MWD and MJD with very similar range and tracking. Going to test it out as soon as I'm done training high energy physics on Sisi. And then instead of only having to swap out the MWD as I do now, I'll have one fit for all missions. That in itself will be HUGE.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
GordonO
BURN EDEN
#12 - 2013-10-24 19:41:00 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
And then instead of only having to swap out the MWD as I do now, I'll have one fit for all missions. That in itself will be HUGE.


This is exactly why I fly shield tanked ships, easier to omni tank for lazy people like myself. Blink

... What next ??
stoicfaux
#13 - 2013-10-24 19:49:50 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
Going to test it out as soon as I'm done training high energy physics on Sisi.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3706636#post3706636
Quote:

We modified our moveme script a bit to enable giving out needed skills for operating Marauders and the Bastion module. Please join the channel "moveme" and write "Bastion" into the channel. This will work only when my character CCP Habakuk3 is present in the channel. Please reply here if you find any problems with the script (I have to admit, that it is not 100% tested).


I don't know if the insta-bastion skills deal is still active on sisi or not.


Quote:
And then instead of only having to swap out the MWD as I do now, I'll have one fit for all missions. That in itself will be HUGE.

Yeah, not having to fiddle with loadouts is very nice.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#14 - 2013-10-24 20:13:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Cipher Jones
That was the last mirror but im going to try anyway, thanks.

Works great thanks.

Prolly gonna try and solo some C4 anomalies while im at it.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2013-10-25 04:20:14 UTC
I fly both and I have to say I never thought I would skip the Mach. With faction ammo plus the added tank in case of OMFG, Varg is a beast.

Sugar Von MurdererTits : Jake Warbird gets my vote for most intriguing and attractive male character in Eve.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#16 - 2013-10-25 12:22:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Caellach Marellus
Just an update, the bastion option is still available in the moveme channel on SiSi.

The issues that people had when the Rubicon build launched 2 days ago have been fixed.

Cipher Jones wrote:


Prolly gonna try and solo some C4 anomalies while im at it.


It works, really really well. I'm not going to try that on live personally, you need some seriously brass balls to try it, but yeah. It's fun.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Cyrus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#17 - 2013-10-25 14:11:08 UTC
Vargur has tank and tank. The mach has speed and DPS. Speed and DPS runs missions faster than tank does. Mach is more fun to fly as well. Come bastion mode, I look forward to reevaluating the Vargur but I'm a bit skeptical of the bastion modes 25% range increase considering that the mach already has that extra range.

It could just mean a more range determined fit for the Vargur with a couple tracking computers though.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#18 - 2013-10-25 17:46:20 UTC
The exceptional overkill that is a Bastion boosted Marauder tank means you fit next to zero tanking modules and go all out on DPS increase.

The Vargur is probably the weakest of the four Marauders to really gain from this, compared to TP's on a Golem and the Paladin/Kronos getting extra lowslots.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#19 - 2013-10-25 20:00:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Cipher Jones
Cyrus wrote:
Vargur has tank and tank. The mach has speed and DPS. Speed and DPS runs missions faster than tank does. Mach is more fun to fly as well. Come bastion mode, I look forward to reevaluating the Vargur but I'm a bit skeptical of the bastion modes 25% range increase considering that the mach already has that extra range.

It could just mean a more range determined fit for the Vargur with a couple tracking computers though.


The mach does indeed complete the missions faster, but the Vargur completes and loots them quicker. It all depends on if your doing it for LP or salvaging.

Also, most of the added DPS of the mach comes from the ability to use sentries, which negates a lot of its speed.

On the test server I dropped a low tracking enhancer and threw in a nano and the Vargur is pretty quick also. With way better tracking.

Caellach Marellus wrote:
The exceptional overkill that is a Bastion boosted Marauder tank means you fit next to zero tanking modules and go all out on DPS increase.

The Vargur is probably the weakest of the four Marauders to really gain from this, compared to TP's on a Golem and the Paladin/Kronos getting extra lowslots.


Yeah, 2 slot tank is very nice indeed. It allows for a MJD and MWD, and the range bonus allows for the nano as I said, so while it doesn't really help with DPS, you never have to change your fit. Thats really nice. You could put a web in there, but with the insane tracking you rearely need it. Pretty much spider drones only.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
BabySeal Clubber
KittehsofDoOoOoM
#20 - 2013-10-25 21:36:01 UTC
Well thank you guys for all the input. Looks like I will start heading towards that vargur and hope the updates make it even better.
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