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TIDI - killing EVE slowly

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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#81 - 2013-10-24 19:18:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:

Well, as I said....

"What does boggle though is how many players (and fanbois trolling the EVEO forums) are stuck in a sad Stokholm-syndrome of having lived with this poor infrastructure & architecture for so long, that any improvement is cause for jubilation and blind tongue-bathing of CCP's efforts...

'TiDi purgatory slowness isn't so bad, you should have seen when we were in disconnect hell...' "

Ahh yes, several thousand people fighting in the same battle is a sign of "poor infrastructure & architecture".

Perhaps you could direct us to someone that accomplishes this better?

Should be easy to do right? Smile


I noticed two things in your response Ranger 1 in the classic trolling & red-herring deflection genre...

1) You used an abstract measure like 'fighting', without mentioning said 'fighting' took place in a TiDi bubble of molasses, where each move and counter move had up to an hour (or more) between them. Yes, truly compelling online & realtime gameplay to be heralded as a panacea of MMO excellence to be sure... Roll

2) You then tried to deflect ownership by CCP of this crap game experience by asking if anyone else has fixed this problem. Honestly, I don't care what other MMO's have or haven't done, I only care about the one I have paid fees towards are doing as a contrast between what is advertised ('massive online player battles rawr!') and the reality of big fleet battles simply sucking.

Tippia and Ranger 1, I was there. Were you?

I have been in countless large fleet battles, both before TIDI and after... and have a very valid basis for comparison. You, apparently, do not... and cannot even remotely back up your assertions of "poor infrastructure and architecture".

Still waiting for even one example of someone who does multi player battles of this scale better. To assert CCP has handled this poorly means that someone else must therefore have handled it better.

Even one will do...

Time to move on.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#82 - 2013-10-24 20:01:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Tippia wrote:
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Honestly, I don't care what other MMO's have or haven't done
Then you have no basis for calling it horrible performance, for saying that it's poor infrastructure and architecture, and thus the fundamental fallacy of your presupposition is exposed.

It's not trolling or deflection: it's pointing out that you are being abusive against people because you have set up unrealistic expectations and are angry that others take a far more pragmatic viewpoint.


I will boil it down for the fanbois, because the tangents and red herrings continue to show they aren't comprehending the following simple concepts....

- Anything I pay for I expect not to suck.
- If an aspect of paid-for service does suck, I at least expect a concrete path to remedy & timeline from the provider.
- Large fleet battles in EvE suck (due to TiDi)

Now call me unrealistic or abusive for saying the emperor still has no clothes even with TiDi, but perhaps I wouldn't get so vocal about this if Pravda wanna-be apologist fanboi's like you weren't trying to bury said suck under the sand...

Ergo, the more you say 'nothing to see here' the more I shout from the mountaintops 'the EvE large fleet battle is a LIE'.

p.s.
Is forum warrior all you do in EvE to accumulate your wealth of knowledge, because our alliance wardecced you the last time you went into CCP taint-licker mode and you didn't even log on once that whole time...do you actually play EvE?

Would you like to know more?
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#83 - 2013-10-24 20:04:53 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
- Anything I pay for I expect not to suck.
- If an aspect of paid-for service does suck, I at least expect a concrete path to remedy & timeline from the provider.
- Large fleet battles in EvE suck (due to TiDi)

I pay for my car.
I get stuck in traffic.
Getting stuck in traffic sucks.
Ergo the car manufacturer sucks and I expect a concrete path to remedy & timeline from them.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#84 - 2013-10-24 20:21:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
- Anything I pay for I expect not to suck.
- If an aspect of paid-for service does suck, I at least expect a concrete path to remedy & timeline from the provider.
- Large fleet battles in EvE suck (due to TiDi)

…except, of course, that TiDi isn't what makes them suck, but rather what makes them possible. If you don't like large fleet fights, don't do them. The game is not to blame if you choose to make it sucky for yourself any more than a wine-maker is to blame if I choose to consume it aurally. Since I paid for it, it would be silly of me to waste it that way and make the whole experience suck.

So here's a concrete path and timeline for a remedy for you: don't do large fleet fights if you dislike them so much.

Quote:
Ergo, the more you say 'nothing to see here' the more I shout from the mountaintops 'the EvE large fleet battle is a LIE'.
…aside from the simple fact that they regularly happen. This means that your shouts are just lies on your part, and the more you lie, the less people will believe anything you say. No matter how much you keep claiming that the large fleet battles don't happen, they do — lying about this fact (and being blatant about it) just because you don't like them doesn't change the reality of the situation. So my only question here is why you think that repeating your trivially disproven claims will in any way help your case.

You still have no basis for calling it horrible performance, for saying that it's poor infrastructure and architecture, and repeating the same ignorant suppositions won't suddenly make them true — only make your lies and your unreliability increasing noticeable.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#85 - 2013-10-24 20:27:24 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:

Will the architecture and infrastructure that today results in high TiDi during the much heralded large fleet battle get budget to fix its horrible performance sooner or later (or never), if people like you get the community to bury head in the sand ala Stokholm syndrome?



It will be "fixed" when they get around to re-writing the whole game engine. Now realize that there are some parts of the code they don;t even know how it work because whoever made it left CCP and you get an idea of the size of the task it is. Putind a deadline on this would be ridiculous and thats why CCP basicly said "Bear with us, we are working on making things better while in the mean time we at least prevented the game from crashing completely."
Pr1ncess Alia
Doomheim
#86 - 2013-10-24 20:29:38 UTC
TIDI - saving EVE slowly
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#87 - 2013-10-24 20:40:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:

Will the architecture and infrastructure that today results in high TiDi during the much heralded large fleet battle get budget to fix its horrible performance sooner or later (or never), if people like you get the community to bury head in the sand ala Stokholm syndrome?


It will be "fixed" when they get around to re-writing the whole game engine. Now realize that there are some parts of the code they don;t even know how it work because whoever made it left CCP and you get an idea of the size of the task it is. Putind a deadline on this would be ridiculous and thats why CCP basicly said "Bear with us, we are working on making things better while in the mean time we at least prevented the game from crashing completely."

Now this is quite different from Tippia and Ranger 1 saying "there is no issue", or 'pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...'

So I can talk to you. You have a brain.

I agree with you on this, they need time and the opportunity to fix large fleet suckage. What I wonder though is will that budget for a potential re-write etc happen sooner or later if people bury head in the sand on this issue?

If CCP has decided its not a priority, then publish that fact in clear terms and go easy on the whole 'single shard' marketing thing; otherwise what IS the roadmap to fixing this?

My point of frustration beyond the fact of learning first hand that I was indirectly lied-to when I tried to take part in my first ever 'big online fleet battle', is that some people are subscribing on that basis, and as it is now its a lie.

A more honest approach would be to cap systems to a max of 2,000 players (or the like) to ensure a continued performant experience. THAT would be honest. Not this continual 'single shard universe' marketing that has the asterisk missing...

*Provided no more than 2,000 enter a system at a time...then it becomes a turn-based MMO

Would you like to know more?
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#88 - 2013-10-24 20:42:07 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:

So I can talk to you. You have a brain.

I agree with you on this,



Confirmed


"if they disagree they are trolling me, because I m a princess"

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#89 - 2013-10-24 20:50:27 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Now this is quite different from Tippia and Ranger 1 saying "there is no issue", or 'pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...'
…which, obviously and true to your continuous lying, neither of us is saying.

Quote:
If CCP has decided its not a priority, then publish that fact in clear terms; otherwise what IS the roadmap to fixing this?
Simple: one step at a time. It'll be done when it's done, and that's really as clear as these things get. Had you paid attention rather than lash out at people explaining what's happening, you would have understood this already.

The problem here is that you have no experience in or of large battles and the conditions for and in them, so you keep making all kind of bass ackwards assumptions that have no basis in reality.

Quote:
My point of frustration beyond the fact of learning first hand that I was indirectly lied-to when I tried to take part in my first ever 'big online fleet battle'
How were you lied to?

Quote:
A more honest approach would be to cap systems to a max of 2,000 players (or the like)
That would be pretty much the worst not-even-close-to-any-kind-of-solution imaginable since, unlike TiDi, it would completely wipe out all large-scale battles and ensure that they never happen. Meanwhile, no matter how much you like to deceive yourself over this fact, TiDi enables those large battles and provides a mechanism for graceful degradation in all overloaded environments.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#90 - 2013-10-24 20:53:01 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:

Will the architecture and infrastructure that today results in high TiDi during the much heralded large fleet battle get budget to fix its horrible performance sooner or later (or never), if people like you get the community to bury head in the sand ala Stokholm syndrome?


It will be "fixed" when they get around to re-writing the whole game engine. Now realize that there are some parts of the code they don;t even know how it work because whoever made it left CCP and you get an idea of the size of the task it is. Putind a deadline on this would be ridiculous and thats why CCP basicly said "Bear with us, we are working on making things better while in the mean time we at least prevented the game from crashing completely."

Now this is quite different from Tippia and Ranger 1 saying "there is no issue", or 'pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...'

So I can talk to you. You have a brain.

I agree with you on this, they need time and the opportunity to fix large fleet suckage. What I wonder though is will that budget for a potential re-write etc happen sooner or later if people bury head in the sand on this issue?

If CCP has decided its not a priority, then publish that fact in clear terms and go easy on the whole 'single shard' marketing thing; otherwise what IS the roadmap to fixing this?

My point of frustration beyond the fact of learning first hand that I was indirectly lied-to when I tried to take part in my first ever 'big online fleet battle', is that some people are subscribing on that basis, and as it is now its a lie.

A more honest approach would be to cap systems to a max of 2,000 players (or the like) to ensure a continued performant experience. THAT would be honest. Not this continual 'single shard universe' marketing that has the asterisk missing...

*Provided no more than 2,000 enter a system at a time...then it becomes a turn-based MMO


Except what you ask for would still ahve TiDi running fully because no node beside Jita can handle 2k player or antyhign close at the same time. Impromptu fights like the last one or Asakai litteraly crush the server because it still has to handle other solar system while this si happeneing. To get close to 2k, the node would have to be reinforced and there is some paperwork to be done toward CCP to plan a reinforcement of a node.

The "on the fly" solution they currently have to reduce TiDi a bit is to remap the otehr system from that node to other system. This also has downside tho as anyone connected to the node on those systems will lose connection while the node is being reinforced by remapping those systems on other nodes of the cluster. This also leave the semi "reinforced" system in a non-optimal state because it's not running on the most powerfull node CCP has.

Long story short, it can't be done for now because we don't give them enough :fifteenbux: for them to be able to afford a team to re-code the whole thing right now. In the meantime while they are doing what they can with the ressources they have, TiDi is making a fantastic job of enabling the huge fights insetad of giving black screen to people.

Creating a dynamic system to change on the fly how the ssytem handle action to amke sure nothing is lost is in itself a huge feat and trying to dismiss it as a failure is ignorant at best since it did achive the intended goal of at the very least making the fights happen instead of just sending the node to **** for a few hours until everything gets fixed.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#91 - 2013-10-24 20:56:18 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:

So I can talk to you. You have a brain.

I agree with you on this,



Confirmed


"if they disagree they are trolling me, because I m a princess"


If I disagree on your princess call (he's clearly more of an ass-hat), does it eman you are trolling me?
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#92 - 2013-10-24 20:59:19 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:


If I disagree on your princess call (he's clearly more of an ass-hat), does it eman you are trolling me?



Nah I dont go in for that kind of "Trole-play"

*MASSIVE EXAGGERATED WINK*

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#93 - 2013-10-24 21:00:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Sorry Tippia, but large fleet battles in EvE suck, and continually trying to call a pig a rose just doesn't work for me. If CCP is going to market the game as 'one single shard universe' and specifically do so to contrast EvE with other multi shard MMO's, they need to be more honest up front about the caveats.

i.e. *Provided no more than 2,000 people enter a system at a time, at which we will convert your experience to a turn-based gameplay mode instead, where said fleet fight may take up to 8 hours realtime to complete...

I have a problem with ANY company that sells me vaporware or a vaporware experience. Expectation leveling me from the get go on 'single shard' and 'massive fleet battles' without disclosing the caveats is just the same as lying in my book.

I don't have a problem with them trying to fix it, I ultimately have a problem with the way marketing and fanboi hype doesn't match reality.

Would you like to know more?
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#94 - 2013-10-24 21:03:33 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Sorry Tippia, but large fleet battles in EvE suck, and continually trying to call a pig a rose just doesn't work for me. If CCP is going to market the game as 'one single shard universe' and specifically do so to contrast EvE with other multi shard MMO's, they need to be more honest up front about the caveats.

i.e. *Provided no more than 2,000 people enter a system at a time, at which we will convert your experience to a turn-based gameplay mode instead, where said fleet fight may take up to 8 hours realtime to complete...

I have a problem with ANY company that sells me vaporware or a vaporware experience. Expectation leveling me from the get go on 'single shard' and 'massive fleet battles' without disclosing the caveats is just the same as lying in my book.


So you hate every single car manufacturer because they don;t tell you that doing burnout out of every red lights won;t give you the MPG figures?

It's as much of a CCP problem as a player created problem. If the limit was pushed to 4k, large coalition would only ping for more/bigger fleets and reach the cap again but CCP would of spend countless $$$ on a ridic solution. It will take time and in the mean time, we have large battle inseatd of no large battle. This in itlsef is super nice IMO.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#95 - 2013-10-24 21:03:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Sorry Tippia, but large fleet battles in EvE suck, and continually trying to call a pig a rose just doesn't work for me.
So don't do them if you think they suck. Problem solved.
Meanwhile, don't inflate your subjective opinion and inexperience to a systematic problem when it's nothing of the sort.

Quote:
If CCP is going to market the game as 'one single shard universe' and specifically do so to contrast EvE with other multi shard MMO's, they need to be more honest up front about the caveats.

i.e. *Provided no more than 2,000 people enter a system at a time, at which we will convert your experience to a turn-based gameplay mode instead, where said fleet fight may take up to 8 hours realtime to complete...
Why should they lie to you? You really need to make up your mind here. First, you accuse them of lying (with nothing to back it up) and then you suggest a pretty humongous lie of your own that they should use instead…

Quote:
I have a problem with ANY company that sells me vaporware or a vaporware experience.
…and this has any bearing on the discussion, how, exactly?
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#96 - 2013-10-24 21:20:42 UTC
Things which are being worked on:

Breaking the updates to clients to a different thread. Not a simple one, as any multi-threaded code is painful and asking for race conditions.
Brain in a Box: undocks, warps, jumps are all expensive runtime wise, due to having to rebuild the character object. This initative breaks that off to a different box, which can be queried as needed. Potentially huge, but any call for character data needs to be rewritten, so long term.


As for people calling for new hardware, it wouldn't help as much as you think. New server hardware tends to be good for multi-threaded or multi-process code. making Eve multithreaded at the system node level would be /very/ difficult. The order of execution is important.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#97 - 2013-10-24 21:27:45 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Well, as I said....
…the fights happen whether you like it or not, so calling them a lie is itself a lie.

No matter how much you rage over it and heap abuse over people who enjoy being able to play the game, the fact remains that they're able to play the game. What boggles the mind is that you think they should be unhappy because of this.

Question Tippia..

Will the architecture and infrastructure that today results in high TiDi during the much heralded large fleet battle get budget to fix its horrible performance sooner or later (or never), if people like you get the community to bury head in the sand ala Stokholm syndrome?

I ask this, because you seem to think you are doing the EvE community a service with your fanboism and 'nothing to see here, move along' crap, but its actually people that say the emperor has no clothes that drive positive change. For example, remember that little episode around micro transactions and pay to win? Was that reversed because asshats like you said 'nothing to see here', or because people railed against it?

p.s.
Were you a writer for Pravda during the Russian Berlin-wall era? I recognize your writing style I think...


something I rarely do ... agree with Tippia .....

which in this case I do. and no it is NOT fanboi-ism
it is recognising that CCP do the best they can given the limitations of current hardware technologies, the performance of those hardwares and the costs of those hardwares

eve doesn't run on a couple of desktop machines patched together with string you know
eve runs on a collection of servers that technically class it as a super-computer
the nsa/cia might have a slightly larger cluster at their disposal,



but if you want to provide the kind of hardware needed for eve to run Ti-Di free
I eagerly await the news that you have personally donated a £200m supercomputer to CCP for the running of it's flagship product.
Short Stack122
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#98 - 2013-10-24 21:35:55 UTC
So how would you fix TiDi? from reading this thread a lot of players seem to hate TiDi because it slows down large fleet fights, but never offer any way to fix it...

personally i dont know TiDi because it means that my individual contribution to a fight does not really matter(the same way that a single vote does not matter to an election). To fix the TiDi the entire hardware side of EvE would have to be upgraded to NSA levels which would only cost half of King Midas's gold.

Limiting players that can be in a system is the 180 in the wrong direction. I can understand the draw of 4000 people fights, they make GREAT PR, see the WSJ, GameInformer, Engaget, ect.....

What would you do to solve the "problem"
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#99 - 2013-10-24 21:44:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdiel Kavash
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Sorry Tippia, but large fleet battles in EvE suck, and continually trying to call a pig a rose just doesn't work for me. If CCP is going to market the game as 'one single shard universe' and specifically do so to contrast EvE with other multi shard MMO's, they need to be more honest up front about the caveats.

i.e. *Provided no more than 2,000 people enter a system at a time, at which we will convert your experience to a turn-based gameplay mode instead, where said fleet fight may take up to 8 hours realtime to complete...

I have a problem with ANY company that sells me vaporware or a vaporware experience. Expectation leveling me from the get go on 'single shard' and 'massive fleet battles' without disclosing the caveats is just the same as lying in my book.

I don't have a problem with them trying to fix it, I ultimately have a problem with the way marketing and fanboi hype doesn't match reality.

Do you see any other MMO adding a footnote "Fluid gameplay (provided no more than 100 people enter the same zone)"? No. Every game, every piece of software, has its limitations. That's how computers work. It just so happens that EVE is able to handle an order of magnitude more people than any other MMO presently on the market.

The "massive fleet battles" term doesn't mean you can dogpile an unlimited number of people into a system (and only someone with absolutely no understanding of technology would take it as that). It just means that, compared to other competitive products, the scale of battles in EVE is, well, massive. A 100v100 fight barely ever makes the news in EVE. Yet in any other MMO it would be a huge battle, if possible at all.

(Unless you can find me a quote from CCP explicitly advertising that EVE can handle 2,000 or more man fights.)
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#100 - 2013-10-24 21:45:14 UTC
ti-di is the lesser of 2 evils

a ti-di free eve is only going to happen in one of two ways

#1 Feyd Rautha Harkonnen donates a £200m supercomputer to CCP
#2 eve goes 'instanced fights' with fixed team sizes




I don't know about you, but I don't view #2 as a viable, acceptable solution.