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Faction items seeded on Sisi

First post
Author
Klandi
Consortium of stella Technologies
#41 - 2011-11-13 23:59:22 UTC
Kellen Shimaya wrote:
Stuff then ...

EDIT: I do agree that navy faction ammo needs to be seeded, but i think only navy ammo for all races should be seeded, not pirate factions, and going from my above statement, i believe all faction ships need to be un-seeded.


So for your argument to be complete, you need to be totally against the spawning of ANY faction items on Sisi. If you allow faction ammo with your main reason is that it is used extensively on TQ and faction mods are not, then I would point to the majority of mission runners that have Caldari Navy mods on their vessels.

To say that the majority do not use faction ships or faction mods in incorrect, and so if a scenario is to be tested for bugs you have to replicate the tested environment

I am aware of my own ignorance and have checked my emotional quotient - thanks for asking

Kellen Shimaya
#42 - 2011-11-14 04:31:53 UTC
Klandi wrote:
Kellen Shimaya wrote:
Stuff then ...

EDIT: I do agree that navy faction ammo needs to be seeded, but i think only navy ammo for all races should be seeded, not pirate factions, and going from my above statement, i believe all faction ships need to be un-seeded.


So for your argument to be complete, you need to be totally against the spawning of ANY faction items on Sisi. If you allow faction ammo with your main reason is that it is used extensively on TQ and faction mods are not, then I would point to the majority of mission runners that have Caldari Navy mods on their vessels.

To say that the majority do not use faction ships or faction mods in incorrect, and so if a scenario is to be tested for bugs you have to replicate the tested environment


yes, but my point is that faction mods are not used NEARLY as extensively as faction ammo.
Sigras
Conglomo
#43 - 2011-11-14 07:13:16 UTC
Klandi wrote:
See Sigras - CCP can pull that post to prove their point. Sisi is there for bug hunting not to see how fast it goes or if EFT is correct . Now, if you were to say that there was a bug fitting this item or the item caused a bug by being fitted, then the basis of Sisi is fulfilled

if the test server is not for testing balance, why are 4 of the 10 sticky topics on the "Test Server Feedback" forum entitled "Balancing Feedback"?
Klandi
Consortium of stella Technologies
#44 - 2011-11-14 10:30:40 UTC
Excellent observation

I am aware of my own ignorance and have checked my emotional quotient - thanks for asking

Jada Maroo
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#45 - 2011-11-14 11:55:27 UTC
The only people who would be against this are the against-everything crowd, and no one should respond to them or care what they think. P
Missile War
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#46 - 2011-11-17 18:50:27 UTC
Jada Maroo wrote:
The only people who would be against this are the against-everything crowd, and no one should respond to them or care what they think. P


the only people that want this are the people who want to test their EFT fits and want to see if it would be a good investment on TQ.
balance issues? don't make me laugh, if everyone is using T1/T2 ammo, than i don't see the problem since everyone is using the same ammo just like in PVP on TQ but than without faction bonusses.
also, as someone else said: if they give us faction ammo, i expect new requests for ships/mods within 1 day

and just to make sure im clear: THIS IS NOT FOR TESTING YOUR ******* EFT-WARRIOR FITS!
and if they implement faction ammo/mods/etc alot of players will come but none of em will report bugs since they just want to keep playing with their EFT-warrior fits
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#47 - 2011-11-17 20:26:53 UTC
Missile War wrote:
balance issues? don't make me laugh, if everyone is using T1/T2 ammo, than i don't see the problem since everyone is using the same ammo just like in PVP on TQ but than without faction bonusses.
also, as someone else said: if they give us faction ammo, i expect new requests for ships/mods within 1 day

Tanks are not reduced, so obviously any test will be biased.

Quote:
and just to make sure im clear: THIS IS NOT FOR TESTING YOUR ******* EFT-WARRIOR FITS!
and if they implement faction ammo/mods/etc alot of players will come but none of em will report bugs since they just want to keep playing with their EFT-warrior fits

Explain to me why the standard PVP ammo which is available at any local trade hub in TQ should be hard to get on Sisi. If you don't seed faction ammo, then what's the reason to seed T2 ammo? Or missiles of more than 1 damage type? Give me one good reason why seeding faction ammo is different than seeding T2 ammo.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644

Sigras
Conglomo
#48 - 2011-11-17 20:35:10 UTC
Missile War wrote:
balance issues? don't make me laugh, if everyone is using T1/T2 ammo, than i don't see the problem since everyone is using the same ammo just like in PVP on TQ but than without faction bonusses.
also, as someone else said: if they give us faction ammo, i expect new requests for ships/mods within 1 day

and just to make sure im clear: THIS IS NOT FOR TESTING YOUR ******* EFT-WARRIOR FITS!
and if they implement faction ammo/mods/etc alot of players will come but none of em will report bugs since they just want to keep playing with their EFT-warrior fits

ok, fine, lets say in SiSi the Dramiel is perfectly balanced . . . it can dual prop but then it doesnt have the cap or the damage that it used to have.

Oh wait . . . On TQ we have Gistii and Coreli propulsion mods and faction gyrostabs that are easier to fit and make the ship faster, and take less cap, and help the ship do more damage. Suddenly the fit isnt so tight and we can get everything we want on it.

But I guess factoring in 3 dozen variables not additional to your ship while testing balance isnt a problem for someone of your intelligence Roll
Sirinda
Ekchuah's Shrine Comporium
#49 - 2011-11-17 20:45:12 UTC
Sigras, I like your mention of room temperature in general, but be advised, in the US, they still use the assbackwards Fahrenheit as a measuring unit, which would give some people here far too much credit, obviously. Next time, make sure you properly refer to degrees Celsius.

9/10
Missile War
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#50 - 2011-11-17 21:28:35 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Missile War wrote:
balance issues? don't make me laugh, if everyone is using T1/T2 ammo, than i don't see the problem since everyone is using the same ammo just like in PVP on TQ but than without faction bonusses.
also, as someone else said: if they give us faction ammo, i expect new requests for ships/mods within 1 day

and just to make sure im clear: THIS IS NOT FOR TESTING YOUR ******* EFT-WARRIOR FITS!
and if they implement faction ammo/mods/etc alot of players will come but none of em will report bugs since they just want to keep playing with their EFT-warrior fits

ok, fine, lets say in SiSi the Dramiel is perfectly balanced . . . it can dual prop but then it doesnt have the cap or the damage that it used to have.

Oh wait . . . On TQ we have Gistii and Coreli propulsion mods and faction gyrostabs that are easier to fit and make the ship faster, and take less cap, and help the ship do more damage. Suddenly the fit isnt so tight and we can get everything we want on it.

But I guess factoring in 3 dozen variables not additional to your ship while testing balance isnt a problem for someone of your intelligence Roll




you're right, i don't need to test fits on sisi to know whether it will work or not, i just know whether it will work from just building it on TQ.

and you're wrong, its not 3 dozen, there are way more combinations. also, like i said before a dozen times:
IF CCP GIVES US ANYTHING FACTION THAT IS DIFFERENT PEOPLE WILL EITHER WHINE ABOUT IT OR ASK FOR EVEN MORE!.
now, stop this thread as its fcking pointless
Klandi
Consortium of stella Technologies
#51 - 2011-11-17 21:34:43 UTC
Missile War wrote:

now, stop this thread as its fcking pointless


Nope, it ain't pointless to me and I will keep on banging on about it

I am aware of my own ignorance and have checked my emotional quotient - thanks for asking

Sigras
Conglomo
#52 - 2011-11-18 00:33:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Sigras
Missile War wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Missile War wrote:
balance issues? don't make me laugh, if everyone is using T1/T2 ammo, than i don't see the problem since everyone is using the same ammo just like in PVP on TQ but than without faction bonusses.
also, as someone else said: if they give us faction ammo, i expect new requests for ships/mods within 1 day

and just to make sure im clear: THIS IS NOT FOR TESTING YOUR ******* EFT-WARRIOR FITS!
and if they implement faction ammo/mods/etc alot of players will come but none of em will report bugs since they just want to keep playing with their EFT-warrior fits

ok, fine, lets say in SiSi the Dramiel is perfectly balanced . . . it can dual prop but then it doesnt have the cap or the damage that it used to have.

Oh wait . . . On TQ we have Gistii and Coreli propulsion mods and faction gyrostabs that are easier to fit and make the ship faster, and take less cap, and help the ship do more damage. Suddenly the fit isnt so tight and we can get everything we want on it.

But I guess factoring in 3 dozen variables not additional to your ship while testing balance isnt a problem for someone of your intelligence Roll




you're right, i don't need to test fits on sisi to know whether it will work or not, i just know whether it will work from just building it on TQ.

and you're wrong, its not 3 dozen, there are way more combinations. also, like i said before a dozen times:
IF CCP GIVES US ANYTHING FACTION THAT IS DIFFERENT PEOPLE WILL EITHER WHINE ABOUT IT OR ASK FOR EVEN MORE!.
now, stop this thread as its fcking pointless

Its not about testing fits, its about testing balance . . . any given ship may be balanced with T2 modules, but that doesnt mean that ship will be balanced when faction modules are allowed . . . IE putting faction gyrostabs on a Tornado may have a greater impact than just the extra damage because it may allow it to fit extra modules that werent intended like extra tank . . . but we dont know and in fact we cant know because the variables number in the dozens of dozens . . .

Besides, what does it matter if all the officer mods etc are seeded . . . its the test server . . . maybe some people would be having ridiculous fits flying around, but what does it matter? at least it provides the people trying to give CCP the balance information they ask for accurate information.
Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
#53 - 2011-11-18 07:55:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Tenris Anis
Missile War wrote:
Jada Maroo wrote:
The only people who would be against this are the against-everything crowd, and no one should respond to them or care what they think. P


the only people that want this are the people who want to test their EFT fits and want to see if it would be a good investment on TQ.
balance issues? don't make me laugh, if everyone is using T1/T2 ammo, than i don't see the problem since everyone is using the same ammo just like in PVP on TQ but than without faction bonusses.
also, as someone else said: if they give us faction ammo, i expect new requests for ships/mods within 1 day

and just to make sure im clear: THIS IS NOT FOR TESTING YOUR ******* EFT-WARRIOR FITS!
and if they implement faction ammo/mods/etc alot of players will come but none of em will report bugs since they just want to keep playing with their EFT-warrior fits


You must be playing really casual if you call faction fittings "EFT fits", I can tell you that the pve crowd considers faction fittings the CHEAP fittings ;-)

And if you can not see the difference in losing 15% damage but not losing 15% in tank than I can not help you.

Remove insurance.

Jules Wolfpack
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2011-11-18 08:22:28 UTC
The question I have regarding his is "why not?".

As someone else pointed out, if not faction junk, then why t2 junk?

And if adding faction junk caused more players to hop on the testing server, regardless of why, there are tons of advantages in terms of test data. They may not be the prodigal tester, but anything they do adds information and chances are, if they observe something strange, they'll likely bring it up in some form or another.



Missile War
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#55 - 2011-11-18 09:25:17 UTC
you guys don't play that long yet on the test servers do you? ofcourse not, you would know the effect it has when they seed alot of stuff if you did.

and its not hard to get faction ammo at all, go to any trade hub in sisi and buy faction ammo, should be left quite a bit, if not tough luck now play with T2 ammo.
and why T2 ammo and not faction? like i said alot of times b4: if they seed anything faction it will only take a day or so for the next question for faction ships/mods/etc
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#56 - 2011-11-18 10:13:08 UTC
Missile War wrote:
and why T2 ammo and not faction? like i said alot of times b4: if they seed anything faction it will only take a day or so for the next question for faction ships/mods/etc

The thing is, they are already asking. But if you seed the faction ammo most people are complaining about, you will get less threads like this, and less noise about faction items. Denying a legitimate claim (seed standard pvp ammo) only makes the less legitimate ones (officer stuffs for everyone!!!11) stronger by association.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644

Sigras
Conglomo
#57 - 2011-11-18 12:32:14 UTC
ugh . . . it seems like you guys arent listening to what we say at all . . .

First, why not seed every item in game on the test server? nobody has really given a good reason why not. So what if people make officer fit PWNmobiles? What does it matter with you? does it stop you from testing for bugs? it doesnt even stop you from messing around with your fits because PvP is only consensual on the test server. There is no reason not to.

Second, its not just ammo. Faction items do exist and new ship balance must be made with these things in mind . . . Clearly CCP wants to use the test server for balance as I pointed out earlier, but yet refuses to give us the tools to do our job fully, especially in the case where the faction/deadspace items are cheap
IE complex 1MN afterburners and MWDs These items are standard on most frigates in PvP but we cannot use them to advise on balance.
Also True Sanshas armor hardeners or faction damage mods which not only provide a greater effect (or the same effect) but make fitting easier too could have unforeseen effects which make at least testing with then necessary.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#58 - 2011-11-18 16:12:59 UTC
Well actually the base speed difference AB [on] with faction on my Tengu is about 400m/s, dps with T1 HM's or Faction Missiles on small targets is also something very different.

And most important, bugs are everywhere, from T1 to T2 or faction/DED/officer stuff

At least give players some kind of package so there aren't abuses like full officer/ded/faction fits if those really change your expectations (don't think so but...)
Klandi
Consortium of stella Technologies
#59 - 2011-11-18 16:58:22 UTC
Sigras - I feel we are up against a couple of ppl that do not understand the basics of programming and testing said programs, so we can talk until we are blue and they STILL won't understand.

What I wanted to get across (and thanks for backing me up) was that if we are allowed on the test server to help with balance and issues (bug finding) then let us help out properly.

I am aware of my own ignorance and have checked my emotional quotient - thanks for asking

Missile War
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#60 - 2011-11-18 18:35:22 UTC
Klandi wrote:
Sigras - I feel we are up against a couple of ppl that do not understand the basics of programming and testing said programs, so we can talk until we are blue and they STILL won't understand.

What I wanted to get across (and thanks for backing me up) was that if we are allowed on the test server to help with balance and issues (bug finding) then let us help out properly.



we're getting what you mean, but its as easy as this: if they seed faction items(tell me how btw, since contracts are way harder to seed than market probaly) alot of people will join sisi, and stop with TQ since sisi will be way more awesome than TQ. and with alot of people joining, real bug testers can't test mods anymore since they get killed before they can even do something by a 50 man blob from (insert random big alliance or character name) . and the people that come to sisi most likely won't bug report thus they don't get any more information.
and tbh, i think CCP is getting enough info from TQ about ships that are using faction(etc.) mods, and i'm quite sure CCP is smart enough to know ppl will faction fit their ships...