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s/Thermodynamics/Heat Management/
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Sarah Stallman
Pen2 Logistics
#1 - 2013-10-21 08:10:34 UTC
Since Thermodynamics was moved to Engineering, it seems odd to leave it with a very Science-y name when it's clearly more of a practical skill in both description and application. It would seem logical to change the name of the skill to "Heat Management", or something similar, to make it more clear that it is intended to be used for to new players.
Lina Theist
Running out of Space
ExoGenesis Consortium
#2 - 2013-10-21 09:47:57 UTC
This is why we need a dislike button. Don't change things that don't need changing.

Scenario 1. A new player would come across "heat management" and think. Hmm, I havn't had any problems with heat, I don't need this ****." and moves on.

Scenario 2. A new player discovers a skill in the engineering tree called thermodynamics. "Well that certainly sounds interesting and could perhaps contribute to my arsenal of skills." thinks the new player. The new player then proceeds to read the description and laughs because of informative yet amusing description, "Well, with this new skill I can overheat my modules, now I understand why I would need to manage heat, good thing that this skill helps with that as well, as is mentioned in the skill description!"

And they all lived happily ever after
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#3 - 2013-10-21 09:53:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
when does the prefix thermo not ever relate to heat or temperature?


If this is confusing an English as primary language player they need to take up legal action, their school system has done them a grave injustice. Our language dies more everyday...just sad. I posted a noted on a diagram referenced by the abbreviation N.B. And 3 people asked me what does that mean. And they were serious.


A little piece of my faith in humanity died that day, and faith in the US public school system and the DODDs system as well.
Sarah Stallman
Pen2 Logistics
#4 - 2013-10-21 11:29:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarah Stallman
It's just a theming issue. Thermodynamics is a field of scientific study like Graviton Physics or the like, so having it be neither related to invention nor in the "Science" group seems inconsistent with the overall theme they moved toward in the Odyssey skill restructuring. They changed the name of the nanite paste skills, why not thermo itself?
Shivanthar
#5 - 2013-10-21 12:37:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Shivanthar
Lina Theist wrote:

Scenario 2. A new player discovers a skill in the engineering tree called thermodynamics. "Well that certainly sounds interesting and could perhaps contribute to my arsenal of skills." thinks the new player. The new player then proceeds to read the description and laughs because of informative yet amusing description, "Well, with this new skill I can overheat my modules, now I understand why I would need to manage heat, good thing that this skill helps with that as well, as is mentioned in the skill description!"

And they all lived happily ever after


I'm with the OP here and I find some of the names not quite explaining. If I have to go to do some "research" in order to just understand what a skill name refers to, then it is not self-explaining.

There is a word "KISS" in programming, that we use pretty much everywhere. It means "Keep It Simple Stupid".
If a module can be overheated and this skill is there to reduce heat that overheated module generates, then;

- It is much better to put heat management as a skill name. But it is still not very "relating" to overheating,
- For the KISS sake, its name can simply be "Overheating" lvl1-2-3-4-5...

If I can't overheat, and if game simply tells me to train for Overheating, I can link them with ease. WTF is Thermodynamics and why a new player should think it is interesting out of zillion skills? I couldn't be able to link that Thermodynamics is used to overheat stuff, if none of my corp mates explained me in the past.

For a new player (especially for a non-native English speaker), the game's depth is so deep that trying to figure out a lot of stuff will prevent words like this to be understood correctly.

Edit: Moreover, new players won't magically discover "a skill called thermodynamics", they should be willingly buying its skill book and inject it in order to see that in their skill arsenal.

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.
Bischopt
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2013-10-21 13:04:24 UTC
Everybody knows the skill as thermodynamics, changing it would just cause confusion.

Let's just agree that it's awesome having thermodynamics at lvl 5. Overheat all the time.
Sarah Stallman
Pen2 Logistics
#7 - 2013-10-21 13:07:36 UTC
I didn't know the skill existed for months after starting. It was never mentioned in any of the tutorials, and while most modules did have a "Required thermodynamics level", it was so far down on my list of things to research it took ages to get around to it.
Shivanthar
#8 - 2013-10-21 13:24:31 UTC
Bischopt wrote:
Everybody knows the skill as thermodynamics, changing it would just cause confusion.


Ones, who already know or trained skill won't have any confusion since they already are "experienced enough" players to consider what has changed. This change would be a benefit for new-starters.

Bischopt wrote:
Let's just agree that it's awesome having thermodynamics at lvl 5. Overheat all the time.


I completely agree +1
:P

Sarah Stallman wrote:
I didn't know the skill existed for months after starting. It was never mentioned in any of the tutorials, and while most modules did have a "Required thermodynamics level", it was so far down on my list of things to research it took ages to get around to it.


You're not alone Roll

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2013-10-21 14:38:02 UTC
Don't forget that Thermodynamics has applications in science as well as overheating modules. Several of the science books in EVE are used for more than just one thing.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Sarah Stallman
Pen2 Logistics
#10 - 2013-10-21 15:08:54 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Don't forget that Thermodynamics has applications in science as well as overheating modules. Several of the science books in EVE are used for more than just one thing.


Thermo is not in Science, and according to EVE Mon's skill explorer thermodynamics enables no skill, modules or blueprint activities. Its only purpose is overheating modules.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2013-10-21 15:15:24 UTC
Really? I thought for sure it had research applications.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Sarah Stallman
Pen2 Logistics
#12 - 2013-10-21 15:37:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarah Stallman
Nope. Not a one. This is exactly why I think the name should be changed. P

(I actually did double-check in EVE Mon's skill explorer, just to be sure. While it is not uncommon for me to forget an edge case, this is not such a time.)
Angeal MacNova
Holefood Inc.
Warriors of the Blood God
#13 - 2013-10-21 15:54:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Angeal MacNova
Shivanthar wrote:
Lina Theist wrote:

Scenario 2. A new player discovers a skill in the engineering tree called thermodynamics. "Well that certainly sounds interesting and could perhaps contribute to my arsenal of skills." thinks the new player. The new player then proceeds to read the description and laughs because of informative yet amusing description, "Well, with this new skill I can overheat my modules, now I understand why I would need to manage heat, good thing that this skill helps with that as well, as is mentioned in the skill description!"

And they all lived happily ever after


I'm with the OP here and I find some of the names not quite explaining. If I have to go to do some "research" in order to just understand what a skill name refers to, then it is not self-explaining.

There is a word "KISS" in programming, that we use pretty much everywhere. It means "Keep It Simple Stupid".
If a module can be overheated and this skill is there to reduce heat that overheated module generates, then;

- It is much better to put heat management as a skill name. But it is still not very "relating" to overheating,
- For the KISS sake, its name can simply be "Overheating" lvl1-2-3-4-5...

If I can't overheat, and if game simply tells me to train for Overheating, I can link them with ease. WTF is Thermodynamics and why a new player should think it is interesting out of zillion skills? I couldn't be able to link that Thermodynamics is used to overheat stuff, if none of my corp mates explained me in the past.

For a new player (especially for a non-native English speaker), the game's depth is so deep that trying to figure out a lot of stuff will prevent words like this to be understood correctly.

Edit: Moreover, new players won't magically discover "a skill called thermodynamics", they should be willingly buying its skill book and inject it in order to see that in their skill arsenal.


I too agree with the OP and will go as far as saying that Lina Troll's..er..I mean Lina's troll post fails at any logic or common sense. A new player exploring their skills will read the description. Sorry Lina but most people are not as dumb as you.

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/goodnight-sweet-prince/

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/the-untold-story/

CCP's true, butthurt, colors.

Because those who can't do themselves keep others from doing too.
Meytal
Doomheim
#14 - 2013-10-21 16:51:07 UTC
"Wikipedia" wrote:
Thermodynamics is a branch of natural science concerned with heat and its relation to energy and work. It defines macroscopic variables (such as temperature, internal energy, entropy, and pressure) that characterize materials and radiation, and explains how they are related and by what laws they change with time. Thermodynamics describes the average behavior of very large numbers of microscopic constituents, and its laws can be derived from statistical mechanics.

Thermodynamics applies to a wide variety of topics in science and engineering—such as engines, phase transitions, chemical reactions, transport phenomena, and even black holes. Results of thermodynamic calculations are essential for other fields of physics and for chemistry, chemical engineering, aerospace engineering, mechanical engineering, cell biology, biomedical engineering, and materials science—and useful in other fields such as economics.

As implemented, the name of Thermodynamics fits its usage perfectly. You think you're pushing a button and the ship just goes into overheat all by itself? Remember, your character is supposed to be intimately connected to the ship via the pod. It is your character's skills, such as running thermodynamics calculations in his head on the fly, that enable you to perform wizardry with higher skills in these fancy space ship thingies. Your character is taking his or her scientific knowledge of Thermodynamics and applying it to overheating the ship's controls.

The knowledge is scientific; the application is engineering (or possibly even mechanical). Since it's not used in anything else in the Science category, Engineering is probably the most logical place for the skill. I suppose you could rename it to Applied Thermodynamics, but that's a bit wordy so just use Thermodynamics for short.
Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2013-10-21 17:14:07 UTC
Shivanthar wrote:
Lina Theist wrote:

Scenario 2. A new player discovers a skill in the engineering tree called thermodynamics. "Well that certainly sounds interesting and could perhaps contribute to my arsenal of skills." thinks the new player. The new player then proceeds to read the description and laughs because of informative yet amusing description, "Well, with this new skill I can overheat my modules, now I understand why I would need to manage heat, good thing that this skill helps with that as well, as is mentioned in the skill description!"

And they all lived happily ever after


I'm with the OP here and I find some of the names not quite explaining. If I have to go to do some "research" in order to just understand what a skill name refers to, then it is not self-explaining.

There is a word "KISS" in programming, that we use pretty much everywhere. It means "Keep It Simple Stupid".
If a module can be overheated and this skill is there to reduce heat that overheated module generates, then;

- It is much better to put heat management as a skill name. But it is still not very "relating" to overheating,
- For the KISS sake, its name can simply be "Overheating" lvl1-2-3-4-5...

If I can't overheat, and if game simply tells me to train for Overheating, I can link them with ease. WTF is Thermodynamics and why a new player should think it is interesting out of zillion skills? I couldn't be able to link that Thermodynamics is used to overheat stuff, if none of my corp mates explained me in the past.

For a new player (especially for a non-native English speaker), the game's depth is so deep that trying to figure out a lot of stuff will prevent words like this to be understood correctly.

Edit: Moreover, new players won't magically discover "a skill called thermodynamics", they should be willingly buying its skill book and inject it in order to see that in their skill arsenal.


Thermodynamics is one of the better named skills in EvE with one of the wittier descriptions. Your description is utilitarian but lacking in any flavour.
I agree with the poster above in regard to the dislike button.

Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85
Rented
Hunter Heavy Industries
#16 - 2013-10-21 18:42:25 UTC
Thermodynamics is indeed slightly misleading in the same sense that you wouldn't really refer to piloting as "Physics". It's somewhat akin to driving a nail with an anvil, but given how the only real meaning in a game "Thermodynamics" is likely to have is "something to do with heat" it's not particularly grievous.

Zan Shiro wrote:
when does the prefix thermo not ever relate to heat or temperature?


If this is confusing an English as primary language player they need to take up legal action, their school system has done them a grave injustice. Our language dies more everyday...just sad. I posted a noted on a diagram referenced by the abbreviation N.B. And 3 people asked me what does that mean. And they were serious.


A little piece of my faith in humanity died that day, and faith in the US public school system and the DODDs system as well.


You're complaining about poor English using poor English. Also, immediately after stating how the English language is dying, you use Latin as an example. Lol
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#17 - 2013-10-21 22:18:58 UTC
Rented wrote:
Thermodynamics is indeed slightly misleading in the same sense that you wouldn't really refer to piloting as "Physics". It's somewhat akin to driving a nail with an anvil, but given how the only real meaning in a game "Thermodynamics" is likely to have is "something to do with heat" it's not particularly grievous.

Zan Shiro wrote:
when does the prefix thermo not ever relate to heat or temperature?


If this is confusing an English as primary language player they need to take up legal action, their school system has done them a grave injustice. Our language dies more everyday...just sad. I posted a noted on a diagram referenced by the abbreviation N.B. And 3 people asked me what does that mean. And they were serious.


A little piece of my faith in humanity died that day, and faith in the US public school system and the DODDs system as well.


You're complaining about poor English using poor English. Also, immediately after stating how the English language is dying, you use Latin as an example. Lol



Latin is the basis for many English words. It is most common in prefixes and suffixes. And in many areas they take the whole word or phrase. A light hearted example would be the band Lady Antebellum. It sounds much better than Lady Prewar. At least for their country music base. If they where a whiny indy emo music anti establishment band Prewar would work better, maybe.


A little bit of the Roman Empire lives to this day. Remember before their fall they got around a bit lol.
Rykki Atruin
Independant Praetorian Corp
#18 - 2013-10-21 22:55:45 UTC
I'm a new (ish) player and I found the Thermodynamics skill because it was on the attributes tab of all those modules...

"Advanced understanding of the laws of thermodynamics. Allows you to deliberately overheat a ship's modules in order to push them beyond their intended limit. [emphasis added] Also gives you the ability to frown in annoyance whenever you hear someone mention a perpetual motion unit. Reduces heat damage by 5% per level. "

I immediately understood what the skill does upon reading the description quoted above. Admittedly, I had to do a bit of research as to why I would want to overheat my modules.

Semi-nomadic corp seeking new and veteran players
Sarah Stallman
Pen2 Logistics
#19 - 2013-10-22 00:34:33 UTC
Rykki Atruin wrote:
Admittedly, I had to do a bit of research as to why I would want to overheat my modules.


This and only this is pretty much what I'm trying to address. Once you find the skill it's immediately obvious what it does. The trick is knowing to look for it.
Lina Theist
Running out of Space
ExoGenesis Consortium
#20 - 2013-10-23 14:57:16 UTC
Shivanthar wrote:

There is a word "KISS" in programming, that we use pretty much everywhere. It means "Keep It Simple Stupid".
If a module can be overheated and this skill is there to reduce heat that overheated module generates, then;

- It is much better to put heat management as a skill name. But it is still not very "relating" to overheating,
- For the KISS sake, its name can simply be "Overheating" lvl1-2-3-4-5...


If we "KISSed" eve the game would suddenly become very uninteresting:
Caldari frigate 1 turrets
Caldari frigate 2 missiles
Caldari frigate 3 ECM
Caldari frigate 4 intercept
Caldari frigate 5 logi

Logi might be confusing, healing is much more straight forward. Also, if you're not intrigued by skills such as Tactical logistics reconfiguration, thermodynamics or infomorph psychology then I don't know what. I guess I feel sorry you won't enjoy sifting through complex sounding skills and modules and ponder their use.


Sarah Stallman wrote:
Rykki Atruin wrote:
Admittedly, I had to do a bit of research as to why I would want to overheat my modules.


This and only this is pretty much what I'm trying to address. Once you find the skill it's immediately obvious what it does. The trick is knowing to look for it.


A lot of things are not explained, such as triage modules. Some skills and mechanics require refinement and have complex functions. I for one would argue that thermodynamics and overheating are of such character and it would be better to avoid them until one has a better grasp of how eve works. A completely new player without help will not probably not have any use of overheating, but instead already as it is struggle with more basic things like simply fit a ship with a decent tank.

I'm all for accessibility, however, all aspects of Eve do not need to cater to completely new players. Some things are best found on your own to prevent new players to be scared away by everything at the same time.
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