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A video that shows exactly why Falcon (and/or ECM) needs a nerf.

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Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#21 - 2013-10-21 06:54:58 UTC
Maliandra wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOzR0tEXjhA

As you can see a single falcon was able to keep the majority of the gang target jammed for the duration of the fight. That is a severe balance issue. Yes you can fit ECCM but that doesn't magically mean ECM/Falcon are balanced.

Let's assume for a second we take scenarios where all the target ships are not fitted for any EWAR reduction. Now let's consider the other forms of EWAR and T2 electronic ships. You can certainly do anything from cap neuting to target range reduction to the point where you take 1 ship out of the fight. Maybe, maybe 2 ships. But that's it. You can never, with any other electronic ship, do anything as effective as was seen in this video.

Does that mean Falcons cannot be killed? Of course not. In this case the pilot kept range. Being able to be killed does not mean balanced.

Does a Falcon always give you the best advantage? Again, no, and that is why other ship types get used on occasion. But that does not mean it's none the less balanced. As stated the balance issue comes from the fact that no other EWAR setup has the capability to be as effective as the Falcon does at their best.

The effectiveness of each given EWAR setup within an ideal scenario specific to that EWAR type should always equate to the effectiveness of the other EWAR setups within ideal scenarios for those EWAR types. The same should apply to the least ideal scenarios; all forms of EWAR being as ineffective as one another.

I would love to see them balance it like this.


Show us on the dolly where the nasty falcon touched you... oh you did!


Just because you don't understand ecm don't call for it to be nerfed. I love it personally.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
KnowUsByTheDead
Sunlight...Through The Blight.
#22 - 2013-10-21 07:04:16 UTC
Jarod Garamonde wrote:


I'm going almost nowhere with that. I'm drunk and stoned, as usual. N/M me... I'm barely on Earth, right now.


You too? Oh my god...I thought I was alone out here.....

Shocked

Once you realize what a joke everything is, being the comedian is the only thing that makes sense.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#23 - 2013-10-21 07:18:30 UTC
Removing racial ECM jammers & leaving just the Multifreq would go a fair way. (ECCM would obviously have the same treatment) as it means the jam strength would be lower, but the Falcon would be effective no matter your target, vs the current min/max for enemy fleet builds. So it would balance out overall.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#24 - 2013-10-21 08:51:42 UTC
The all new and shiny nerf to T2 ECM ships is called Bastion mode and it's going live in novembre, I think.

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
destiny2
Decaying Rocky Odious Non Evil Stupid Inane Nobody
Rogue Drone Recovery Syndicate
#25 - 2013-10-21 08:55:30 UTC
Maliandra wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOzR0tEXjhA

As you can see a single falcon was able to keep the majority of the gang target jammed for the duration of the fight. That is a severe balance issue. Yes you can fit ECCM but that doesn't magically mean ECM/Falcon are balanced.

Let's assume for a second we take scenarios where all the target ships are not fitted for any EWAR reduction. Now let's consider the other forms of EWAR and T2 electronic ships. You can certainly do anything from cap neuting to target range reduction to the point where you take 1 ship out of the fight. Maybe, maybe 2 ships. But that's it. You can never, with any other electronic ship, do anything as effective as was seen in this video.

Does that mean Falcons cannot be killed? Of course not. In this case the pilot kept range. Being able to be killed does not mean balanced.

Does a Falcon always give you the best advantage? Again, no, and that is why other ship types get used on occasion. But that does not mean it's none the less balanced. As stated the balance issue comes from the fact that no other EWAR setup has the capability to be as effective as the Falcon does at their best.

The effectiveness of each given EWAR setup within an ideal scenario specific to that EWAR type should always equate to the effectiveness of the other EWAR setups within ideal scenarios for those EWAR types. The same should apply to the least ideal scenarios; all forms of EWAR being as ineffective as one another.

I would love to see them balance it like this.


ECCM was made for a reason you should use it Big smile
Tialano Utrigas
Running with Dogs
Northern Coalition.
#26 - 2013-10-21 09:17:44 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Jarod Garamonde wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Jarod Garamonde wrote:
Tzar Sinak wrote:
Wasn't Falcon already nerfed? I mean wasn't ECM already nerfed?

ECM and Falcon are one and the same.

But our newbie Blackbirds...

If ECM cruisers were bewbies:

Blackbird = A-cup
Falcon = epic perma-perky triple-F's with small nipples and naturally-occuring cleavage

I don't really get where you're going with it, but anyway we mostly removed the blackbird from our low-sp fleets in favor of the famous celestis.

test of course continued using blackbirds


ECM isn't really that useful in fleet fights, but is a PITA for small gang stuff.

Sensor damps on the other hand...
Jennifer Maxwell
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#27 - 2013-10-21 11:31:11 UTC
The Falcon is fine. You show us an example of obviously PvE fit T3. PvE ships almost never have any additional sensor strength, and T3 ships are known for weak sensors. This is a horrible example.

For one, while the ship is indeed powerful, it's not broken. It's ballanced just fine; other kinds of EWAR are specialized just like ECM is. Damps work well for a wide variety of ships, but are best for snipers. TPs are pretty much useless against BS and up, but support big ships in shooting small ones. TDs can neuter all kinds of ships, except they do absolutely nothing against missile boats.

And ECM need to be considered before the battle, or it's effectiveness is greatly reduced. Racial works best against it's race, but has bad effect on others. Multi has good spread, but the range requires you to get up close. And if pilots train up the right skills and fit even a little bit of ECCM, it makes the Jammer's job hard. The simple truth is that most people don't train up skills to boost their sensor strength, because they never consider it unless they fight them often.

You also need to take the the skill of the pilot and enemy fleet into consideration. A pilot with max skills and fully fit Falcon, but who knows absolutely nothing about flying ECM, is going to be horrible at it. But a good ECM pilot with just a Griffon or BB is going to be pretty effective at their job.

The mistake these guys made was thinking they could take the obviously armor fit Legion when there's a Falcon on field. They rely on locks not only for doing damage, but ALSO for their active tank. The Legion combined with the Falcon ensured that if htey had the locks, they didn't have the cap, and visa versa.

What they should have done was go straight after the Falcon. Not all of them were pointed, so when their original plan wasn't working, one should have warped off and warped back at range to engage that Falcon. If they could have simply forced it off field, not even destroy it, they could have kept their cap chain up and burned down the Legion. After that, it was simple cleanup. Two tengus to keep the Falcon off field, three to kill the enemy Tengu.



In closing, man the **** up and learn how to deal with changing situations on the battlefield. Don't just blame the Falcon for everything; it has it's specialized role and it does it just fine.
Good Posting
Doomheim
#28 - 2013-10-21 11:56:40 UTC
I love my Falcon alt. Buff Falcon, if anything. And the OP can kiss my a ass.
ner00n
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#29 - 2013-10-21 12:15:21 UTC
I think CCP should make a 250km AOE Doomsday that only kills falcons that way your proplem will be fixed
Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2013-10-21 12:29:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Silvetica Dian
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Jarod Garamonde wrote:
Tzar Sinak wrote:
Wasn't Falcon already nerfed? I mean wasn't ECM already nerfed?

ECM and Falcon are one and the same.

But our newbie Blackbirds...



i have a feeling OP hasn't met your celestis fleets either.

edit i see you mentioned them yourself....derp.

Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2013-10-21 13:37:55 UTC
And another completely redundant thread with lots of redundant posts...
CCP Falcon
#32 - 2013-10-21 14:05:06 UTC
Baali Tekitsu wrote:
#DEATH2ALLFALCONS


Sad

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3
Atlantis Fuanan
Wormhole Research Inc.
#33 - 2013-10-21 14:07:30 UTC
It's always wonderfull to see the suggestion "Counter it with ECCM". But what does this mean?
1st you have to expect atleast one faclon in the other team.
2nd (depending on ship) will loose a utility.
But hey let's look at other ewars:
Tarpet Painter .... Make smaller Signature by Fitting accordingly / Shoot the painting ship
Target Disruption .... Target Computer / Shoot the disrupting ship
Warp Scrambler/Disruptor .... Adjust fitting / Shoot the scrambling/disrupting ship / Build up range
Stasis Webifier .... Fit props / Shoot the webbing ship / Build up range
(...)
ECM .... Fit ECCM / Shoot if you CAN (Jam failed + Locking Successfull + in range)
I think i see something a lot of the falcon/jamming-loving people just fail to see.
Do you see it?

[u]Things that would make EVE better:[/u] NRDS - Remove Local - Balance Cloak - Sov-Mechanic Changes - Less QQ
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#34 - 2013-10-21 15:07:03 UTC
There is nothing wrong with ECM: A substantiation with numbers
Version 1.0.3 10/21/13
By: Aliventi
A work in progress. To be refined as more "ECM is OP/wrong/bad" threads pop up.


If you step back and take a look, ECM is arguably the least destructive of the EWAR varieties with the exception of TPs. A sensor dampener can lower a ship's targeting range to the point that it can't lock anything. Tracking disruptors lower the tracking on a ship to the point it can't actually hit anything. How frustrating is it that you can lock a target, but you can't track well enough to even hit it? Of course, TDs don't work against logistics, EWAR, or missile boats. That would make TDs less effective than ECM.

In other words, ECM, damps, and tracking disruption all have the potential to remove enemies from the fight. ECM and damps prevent you from locking, and TDs prevent your guns from doing anything effective. ECM is balanced in the way that it has a non-trivial chance of outright failing none of the other EWARs have. In fact SDs, TDs, and TPs never miss. ECM effects lasts 20 seconds whereas SD and TD effects last for as long as the module is activated.

Another balancing factor is that ECM is a mid-slot module in a race that is purely shield tanking. The other three races can fill their mids with EWAR and put together a reasonable armor tank. It is no mystery that this is why the CFC celestis fleets are so successful. They are combining never miss EWAR with a bonused ship that can tank long enough for logi to rep them. Caldari ships can put together a tissue paper armor tank at best.

One more reason ECM is less effective than the other types of EWARs is that to be effective in all situations a ECM ship needs to fit 4 specialized modules compared to the 1 generalized module that TDs, SDs and TPs enjoy. This means that tank is often sacrificed to reacha bare minimum of effectiveness.

"That is all fine and dandy," You say "but ECM is still too powerful". Why don't we take a look at some numbers?

Take a T2 Minmatar jammer. The ECM Phase Inverter II has a Ladar jam strength of 3.6.
Jammer vs Rifter: 3.6/8 sensor strength = 45% chance of a jam or 55% chance of doing nothing.
Jammer vs Stabber: 3.6/13 sensor strength = 27.69% chance of a jam or 72.31% chance of doing nothing.
Jammer vs Hurricane: 3.6/16 sensor strength = 22.5% chance of a jam or 77.5% chance of doing nothing.
Jammer vs Tempest: 3.6/20 sensor strength = 18% chance of a jam or 82% chance of doing nothing.

See? hardly anything wrong with ECM. Even against the most basic frigate it will fail more times than it will succeed. Imagine if your guns, hardeners, point, MWD, etc. had that fail rate. *shudder*

You see your issue is not truly with ECM. Your issue, is in fact, with the ECM bonused hulls. Take a Falcon with all level 5 skills fit with racial jammers, 2 Sensor Distortion Amps, and one ECM strength rig and let's look at those numbers again.

All level 5 Falcon vs. Sensor Comp. 5 ship:
Jammer vs Rifter: 14.2/9.6 sensor strength = 100% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Stabber: 14.2/15.6 sensor strength = 91.02% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Hurricane: 14.2/19.2 sensor strength = 73.95% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Tempest: 14.2/24 sensor strength = 59.16% chance of jamming

That really isn't OP at all. Considering the vast amount of training one has to accomplish to become a perfect Falcon pilot. In comparison the time it take to train a racial sensor comp to 5 or fit an ECCM module is trivial. In addition a Falcon has a tissue paper tank, a non-trivial chance of missing a jam, and unlike the other forms of EWAR it doesn't last forever.

Now you are likely to bring up a rather painful point in small gang and solo PvP: The ECM drone. Why don't we take a look at those?

EC-300 drone strength is 1.
Jammer vs Rifter: 1/9.6 sensor strength = 10.41% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Stabber: 1/15.6 sensor strength = 6.41% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Hurricane: 1/19.2 sensor strength = 5.23% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Tempest: 1/24 sensor strength = 4.16% chance of jamming

EC-600 drone strength is 1.5.
Jammer vs Rifter: 1.5/9.6 sensor strength = 15.62% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Stabber: 1.5/15.6 sensor strength = 9.61% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Hurricane: 1.5/19.2 sensor strength = 7.81% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Tempest: 1.5/24 sensor strength = 6.25% chance of jamming

Neither of those scream OP at all. "Now that isn't the real story" you exclaim "Most ships have 5!" True:
(How to calculate: Link calculator: Link (P (X>=1)) is the important number)

5 EC-300 jam strength 1:
vs Rifter: 42.28% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
vs Stabber: 28.19% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
vs Hurricane: 23.55% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
vs Tempest: 21.02% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
For 25m3 of drones these do seem a touch too powerful. I would recommend a reduction in jam strength down to .75.

5 EC-600 jam strength 1.5:
vs Rifter: 57.22% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
vs Stabber: 39.66% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
vs Hurricane: 33.40% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
vs Tempest: Or 27.58% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
For 50m3 of drones these seem very well balanced for their size.

You see in the grand scheme of things ECM is neither OP, broken, wrong, out of place, or any of the other things people claim ECM is. It is merely a different and perfectly valid form of EWAR. It is high-risk high-reward, only truly effective on bonused hulls (as it should be) which at best can manage a tissue paper tank when fitting jams, and doesn't last forever like the other forms of EWAR. All things considered, it is perfectly in line with the other forms of EWAR. What's so wrong with that?
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#35 - 2013-10-21 15:10:33 UTC
It recruits an Ishtar pilot for its gang, or it gets the jam again.
Seraph Essael
Air
The Initiative.
#36 - 2013-10-21 15:20:39 UTC
Sensor Damp Ship Vs. Jamming Ship... Counter ECM with an ECM boat of your own... If he can't lock you, he can't target you with specific ECM...

Or use ECM drones on him (Don't know if that one works)...

Or many of the other in game mechanics designed to stop a Falcon. They are not indestructible you know Big smile

Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person."
SoldierSister
State War Academy
Caldari State
#37 - 2013-10-21 15:35:02 UTC  |  Edited by: SoldierSister
The trolling skills are high in this one!!!!!


If you wondering why Maliandra also started a post around the same time here :-

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=288549&find=unread

asking for hi sec to be nerfed. in that post they stated they only really stay in high sec...

So WTF is this post about not seen any carebears doing mining or lvl 4's in a falcon

lets nerf falcon because some people know how to use them.

I wonder who your main really is
Antihrist Pripravnik
Cultural Enrichment and Synergy of Diversity
Stain Neurodiverse Democracy
#38 - 2013-10-21 15:36:25 UTC
The problem with "Nerf Falcon" threads is that they are mostly written by those who don't fly Falcons. Those who fly Falcons know just how many downsides that ship already has.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2013-10-21 16:07:00 UTC
Atlantis Fuanan wrote:
It's always wonderfull to see the suggestion "Counter it with ECCM". But what does this mean?
1st you have to expect atleast one faclon in the other team.
2nd (depending on ship) will loose a utility.
But hey let's look at other ewars:
Tarpet Painter .... Make smaller Signature by Fitting accordingly / Shoot the painting ship
Target Disruption .... Target Computer / Shoot the disrupting ship
Warp Scrambler/Disruptor .... Adjust fitting / Shoot the scrambling/disrupting ship / Build up range
Stasis Webifier .... Fit props / Shoot the webbing ship / Build up range
(...)
ECM .... Fit ECCM / Shoot if you CAN (Jam failed + Locking Successfull + in range)
I think i see something a lot of the falcon/jamming-loving people just fail to see.
Do you see it?



I do! I do!

"fit accordingly" isn't it?

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#40 - 2013-10-21 16:08:57 UTC
what it tells me is Tengu's tank is ridiculously OP and neut legions should have drones

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using