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Need help understanding optimal range mechanics

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oOReikaOo Michiko
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2013-10-21 07:37:50 UTC
Why is optimal range a flat number?

For instance your optimal range is 30,000 ... why isnt it 25,000 - 30,000? I dont understand why the second you get off 30k exactly you start to lose %.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfSDNPFCPfY
Lady Naween
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2013-10-21 07:40:05 UTC
optimal range is up to that range. not just that exact range
oOReikaOo Michiko
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2013-10-21 07:40:44 UTC
Lady Naween wrote:
optimal range is up to that range. not just that exact range


So I will get 100% between 1m - 30,000 meters?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfSDNPFCPfY
Mythrandier
Solace Corp
#4 - 2013-10-21 07:45:01 UTC
oOReikaOo Michiko wrote:
Lady Naween wrote:
optimal range is up to that range. not just that exact range


So I will get 100% between 1m - 30,000 meters?



Yes. IIRC it then drops to 50% damage between optimal and max fall off.

"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -  D. Adams.
oOReikaOo Michiko
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2013-10-21 07:49:05 UTC  |  Edited by: oOReikaOo Michiko
Mythrandier wrote:
oOReikaOo Michiko wrote:
Lady Naween wrote:
optimal range is up to that range. not just that exact range


So I will get 100% between 1m - 30,000 meters?



Yes. IIRC it then drops to 50% damage between optimal and max fall off.


Oh that makes a TON more sense .. I was like wtf

but i guess even still you need to deal with tracking modifiers..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfSDNPFCPfY
Mythrandier
Solace Corp
#6 - 2013-10-21 07:53:52 UTC
oOReikaOo Michiko wrote:
Mythrandier wrote:
oOReikaOo Michiko wrote:
Lady Naween wrote:
optimal range is up to that range. not just that exact range


So I will get 100% between 1m - 30,000 meters?



Yes. IIRC it then drops to 50% damage between optimal and max fall off.


Oh that makes a TON more sense .. I was like wtf

but i guess even still you need to deal with tracking modifiers..



Indeed.

http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Gunnery_Guide

Everything you need to know (more or less) is in that article.

"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -  D. Adams.
Livonia Velorea
The Fiendish Pixies
#7 - 2013-10-21 07:57:06 UTC
The falloff is 99.9% - 50% chance to hit at max falloff againts a stationary target of equal size to your guns sig resolution I belive.

It's also worth noting that falloff continues beyond what is mentioned on show info until you reach a 0% chance to hit.

I pew you too! <3
Antihrist Pripravnik
Cultural Enrichment and Synergy of Diversity
Stain Neurodiverse Democracy
#8 - 2013-10-21 09:04:20 UTC
There are other factors included as well apart from optimal range. Like signature radius and tracking speed. Here's an interactive guide so you can play around a bit and figure out how it works: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0910/eve-tracking101.swf

And yes, your optimal range is from 0m to 30,000m (0m instead of 1m issue was fixed a couple of years ago).
Velicitia
XS Tech
#9 - 2013-10-21 09:11:45 UTC
Yep, what everyone's said.

The tracking formula is ... complex... to say the least.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#10 - 2013-10-21 09:53:26 UTC
Livonia Velorea wrote:
The falloff is 99.9% - 50% chance to hit at max falloff againts a stationary target of equal size to your guns sig resolution I belive.

It's also worth noting that falloff continues beyond what is mentioned on show info until you reach a 0% chance to hit.


IIRC it's roughly 2.4x to 2.6x where falloff tends to 0
No Means No
meh fackit
#11 - 2013-10-21 09:56:54 UTC
falloff range or gtfo

optimal is for noobs
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#12 - 2013-10-21 10:00:53 UTC
Bear in mind that you are still best off firing at the optimal exact range (unless using missiles) for tracking reasons. If your optimal is 3000m, then try and stay at 3000m. Farther away will loose you DPS, and closer will loose you DPS if your target is orbiting.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Teinyhr
Ourumur
#13 - 2013-10-21 10:04:53 UTC
No Means No wrote:
falloff range or gtfo

optimal is for noobs


Truer words have never been said.
culo duro
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2013-10-21 10:12:12 UTC
oOReikaOo Michiko wrote:
Why is optimal range a flat number?

For instance your optimal range is 30,000 ... why isnt it 25,000 - 30,000? I dont understand why the second you get off 30k exactly you start to lose %.


To answer your question in a graph.

I've starting blogging http://www.epvpc.blogspot.com 
oOReikaOo Michiko
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2013-10-21 10:24:30 UTC
Is it a bit carebear of me to ask them to toss in a damage percentage under locked targets, showing what ur current % is at like in dust

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfSDNPFCPfY
Antihrist Pripravnik
Cultural Enrichment and Synergy of Diversity
Stain Neurodiverse Democracy
#16 - 2013-10-21 15:24:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Antihrist Pripravnik
oOReikaOo Michiko wrote:
Is it a bit carebear of me to ask them to toss in a damage percentage under locked targets, showing what ur current % is at like in dust


No, it's not carebear to ask or suggest anything. Smile

There are multiple factors that define the damage % (as linked in my previous reply). From what I can remember at the moment, your damage % is depending on:
- your optimal range
- your tracking speed
- the distance of the target
- target's signature radius
- sum of movement vectors of you and your target (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euclidean_vector#Addition_and_subtraction)

These parameters are rather dynamic and are constantly changing, especially the resulting movement vector. When you take a shot the server calculates the damage by taking into account all of these parameters and delivers the damage message to you so it can be displayed. Since you already know that damage varies for every shot, namely because the sum of movement vectors is constantly changing, your damage percentage that would be hypothetically shown below the target would as well change with every shot. That means that you will not have a reliable information about the damage % until server calculates it.

Having said that, it would be viable to have maximum damage percentage based only on optimal + falloff+ distance of the target. For example (given that your optimal is 30,000m and falloff 15,000m):
- target is at 25,000m = 100%
- target is at 45,000m = 50%
- target is at 70,000m = 0%

The downside could be that it would be confusing to new players who are yet to understand the interface and what everything in it actually means.
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#17 - 2013-10-21 22:16:58 UTC
oOReikaOo Michiko wrote:
Lady Naween wrote:
optimal range is up to that range. not just that exact range


So I will get 100% between 1m - 30,000 meters?


Yes, however the closer the target is to you, the greater your relative speeds/angular velocities. If your tracking skill is low or the gun you are using has poor tracking, you can have a bad guy well within optimal range and still not be able to hit. When that happens either speed up and put some range between you and him, or get into position where you can follow him and not have the angle change much. EVE is not just about optimal, it's about optimal AND tracking. Guns that track well are usually short range, guns that can't track usually have huge optimal ranges (but can barely hit a moving target).
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#18 - 2013-10-21 22:27:06 UTC
This thread has been moved to EVE New Citizens Q&A.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Rekon X
Doomheim
#19 - 2013-10-21 22:47:53 UTC
Ptraci wrote:
oOReikaOo Michiko wrote:
Lady Naween wrote:
optimal range is up to that range. not just that exact range


So I will get 100% between 1m - 30,000 meters?


Yes, however the closer the target is to you, the greater your relative speeds/angular velocities. If your tracking skill is low or the gun you are using has poor tracking, you can have a bad guy well within optimal range and still not be able to hit. When that happens either speed up and put some range between you and him, or get into position where you can follow him and not have the angle change much. EVE is not just about optimal, it's about optimal AND tracking. Guns that track well are usually short range, guns that can't track usually have huge optimal ranges (but can barely hit a moving target).


You can especially see this with projectile artillery weapons, etc. You start shooting inside your optimal range and you miss a lot unless it's something slow with a large signature. You can look at all the charts, information, and simulations. But until you go out and put it into practice, it won't really be clear. Just watch your damage numbers at different ranges on different size ships.

Definition of goon - a stupid person Those who can do, those who can't spew
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#20 - 2013-10-21 23:03:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
0 to optimal : you do not miss because of range (you can miss because of poor tracking), and hit quality is maximized.

optimal to optimal + falloff : the deeper you get into falloff, the more likely you are to miss because of range, plus the hit quality drops.

It is possible to hit out to optimal + 2 * falloff, but you miss so much that it is pointless. Typically one should try to not stray past optimal + falloff (40% damage). Planning for optimal + 1/2 falloff (80% damage) is a better idea, as it gives you more manoeuvring options.

Lasers operate entirely in optimal, because they have a very short falloff. Crystals radically change the range of lasers. The further the range, the less thermal damage a laser does; longest range Radio crystals produce only EM damage. The shortest range Multifrequency crystals produce roughly 50% thermal and 50% EM damage.

In contrast, projectile AutoCannons typically operate in falloff, as they have a very short optimal. Hard hitting ammo like Phased Plasma reduces the optimal by 50%, which really doesn't matter. Projectiles can do all damage types, always with some explosive damage, depending on the ammo. Falloff bonuses on projectile hulls are usually geared towards AutoCannons.

Hybrid Blasters have a very short optimal and falloff, so they are an in-your-face weapon system. They do the most damage in EVE. Of course getting into range and staying in range can be an issue for blaster ships; webifiers and warp scramblers (to shutoff MicroWarp drives) help a great deal, and it is common to find a tracking bonus on a blaster hull. Blasters like all hybrids produce roughly 60% kinetic and 40% thermal damage.

Projectile Artillery tends to be used near the end of optimal, and it has a very long falloff. Optimal bonuses on projectile hulls are usually geared towards artillery; hard hitting ammo like Phased Plasma reduces the optimal by 50%.

Hybrid Railguns are designed for sniping. They are weaker at shorter ranges compared to the other turrets, but make up for that at longer ranges where the other turrets miss more and have poor quality hits, or simply cannot reach. Optimal bonuses on hybrid hulls are usually geared towards railguns.

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/File:Falloff.png
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Turret_damage
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