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Freighters - need reballance
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Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2013-10-19 23:48:04 UTC
A Griffin makes for a really cheap escort. You can pop an ECM burst on it and have it warp alongside your hauler. If the hauler is attacked, just ECM burst at the gate. Doesn't matter much if the Griffin dies, and the Griffin pilot won't lose much sec status for that either.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Sarah Stallman
Pen2 Logistics
#62 - 2013-10-20 00:02:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarah Stallman
Meyr wrote:
...you know damned well that there have been multi-boxed ganks.


Not for freighters. One would need to coordinate the efforts of more than a dozen toons in less than the time it takes CONCORD to show up. No single human is fast enough without botting.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2013-10-20 00:30:59 UTC
Sarah Stallman wrote:
Not for freighters. One would need to coordinate the efforts of more than a dozen toons in less than the time it takes CONCORD to show up. No single human is fast enough without botting.
Mostly true, but a single person can pull off a multibox gank of a freighter if using tornadoes and the freighter takes too long to warp (one friend bumping, never has to lose a ship)

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Sarah Stallman
Pen2 Logistics
#64 - 2013-10-20 01:58:55 UTC
Time to warp can't be an issue, a single warp disruptor would prevent that. A dozen gank fit catalysts doing 700 DPS will take something on the order of 20 seconds to kill a freighter, if they hit for full damage every shot, and I bet it doesn't take CONCORD long after arriving on grid to take out a gank catalyst.
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2013-10-20 07:07:48 UTC
Sarah Stallman wrote:
Time to warp can't be an issue, a single warp disruptor would prevent that. A dozen gank fit catalysts doing 700 DPS will take something on the order of 20 seconds to kill a freighter, if they hit for full damage every shot


Miniluv has some people doing multibox ganks, with the assistance of ISBoxer. It's not easy, especially with catalysts, as you need to bump the freighter 150 off the gate-guns (they one-shot a gank catalyst). With brutix/talos gangs you don't HAVE to bump, but usually ganking on a gate is a bad idea due to random ****-lords bumping your hauler or stealing the loot.

Quote:
and I bet it doesn't take CONCORD long after arriving on grid to take out a gank catalyst


Doesn't matter what ship you are in, few seconds after CONCORD is on grid you are jammed, neuted and have 0 drone bandwidth - it's the same for a frigate as for a battleship.
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2013-10-20 07:15:33 UTC
Meyr wrote:
There is no 'safe hauling value', that concept is meaningless. Sometimes, it's simply the killmail that someone's after. The issue here is whether or not a freighter pilot should have the ability to gimp the primary purpose of his ship (cargo capacity) in order to make it more survivable, just as miners do (except that there's no 'Hulk', 'Mackinaw', and 'Skiff' versions of freighters, they're ALL 'Hulks', with minimal tank, maximum capacity).


If people want a killmail, they will bring whatever they have ready to do the job and no amount of tank can safe you. Just a couple hours ago a member of GSF suicide ganked miners in a Navy Brutix and "faction" catalysts - just because he can.

There are already differences between the freighters, they could adjust those to make the choice which freighter you take more meaningful (Fenrir is fastest, but least ehp for example). I don't agree with the "minimal tank" assessment, they have enough tank to discourage random ganks.

Quote:
Your suggestion that I bring escorts with high alpha, two webbing ships, and a couple of ECM hulls to escort my single freighter is what prompted the 'bring friends' comment, as in, if I have to bring more help, so should you. As for single pilots ganking freighters, you know damned well that there have been multi-boxed ganks.


1. I already have to bring friends as solo ganking a freighter is impossible. Nothing stops you from multiboxing your ECM fleet.
2. That's a single PLAYER multiboxing several PILOTS - that's far from solo ganking.
Shonion
FREE GATES
#67 - 2013-10-20 07:39:03 UTC
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:

Where are the dozens of dead freighters with 1B (or less) in loot that die daily?



http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=20058795

And you can find more. Of corse if you gank a freighter you would choose one of that has more value in cargo if you can.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#68 - 2013-10-20 11:41:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Shonion wrote:
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:

Where are the dozens of dead freighters with 1B (or less) in loot that die daily?



http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=20058795

And you can find more. Of corse if you gank a freighter you would choose one of that has more value in cargo if you can.

You do realise why that ship was ganked? I'll give you a hint, it was the first item on the list and they judged the other items involved to be enough to take that gamble. Plus I have a feeling those ships would fetch more on the market.

But the request was for the supposed dozens that die daily with 1 Billion or less, not a one off with what could have been a big money package. So if there are dozens of such kills within the daily requirement, why didn't you list them?

It's has been asked so many times before, if it's so easy and such a good money maker, then why are there not more freighter kills?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2013-10-20 11:46:23 UTC
Shonion wrote:
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:

Where are the dozens of dead freighters with 1B (or less) in loot that die daily?


http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=20058795

And you can find more. Of corse if you gank a freighter you would choose one of that has more value in cargo if you can.


1.) I'm not a native english speaker, so forgive me if I missed that a "dozens" are, in fact, only "one". My request was for tens (maybe that word is better?) of those freighters dying each day - surely if it were easy or profitable there would be a lot of those kills.

2.) That particular freighter was ganked because of the plastic wrap. It's basically a gamble on the ganker's side: Is he carrying 10 PLEX or just a handful of garbage in that wrap?
Sarah Stallman
Pen2 Logistics
#70 - 2013-10-20 12:23:41 UTC
Shonion wrote:
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:

Where are the dozens of dead freighters with 1B (or less) in loot that die daily?



http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=20058795

And you can find more. Of corse if you gank a freighter you would choose one of that has more value in cargo if you can.


Plastic wrap is, to my knowledge, nearly always assumed to be PLEX. The presence of plastic wrap means the freighter will be ganked any time it is physically possible to do so.

The lesson isn't that freighters aren't tough enough, but rather that one should never, ever put plastic wrap into one.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2013-10-20 15:36:52 UTC
Is that really true? If I were rich, maybe I would start flying empty freighters with empty plastic wrap just to screw with gankers. Twisted

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Shonion
FREE GATES
#72 - 2013-10-20 15:40:13 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Is that really true? If I were rich, maybe I would start flying empty freighters with empty plastic wrap just to screw with gankers. Twisted


Plastic wraps are courier contracts. Thats all. Not necesearry contain plex just if the contractor dumb enought. :)
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2013-10-20 16:27:36 UTC
Shonion wrote:
Plastic wraps are courier contracts. Thats all. Not necesearry contain plex just if the contractor dumb enought. :)


Specifically they are double-wrapped courier contracts. Chances are good that someone who goes through the trouble of double-wrapping, has something valuable inside. Since you can't scan double-wraps, it's like a birthday present: It could be the sweet new console/gaming rig/television - or a voucher for a dinner with aunt Mary.
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#74 - 2013-10-20 17:14:50 UTC
Sarah Stallman wrote:
Meyr wrote:
...you know damned well that there have been multi-boxed ganks.


Not for freighters. One would need to coordinate the efforts of more than a dozen toons in less than the time it takes CONCORD to show up. No single human is fast enough without botting.


ISBoxer, which CCP deems legal.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#75 - 2013-10-20 17:21:30 UTC
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Shonion wrote:
Plastic wraps are courier contracts. Thats all. Not necesearry contain plex just if the contractor dumb enought. :)


Specifically they are double-wrapped courier contracts. Chances are good that someone who goes through the trouble of double-wrapping, has something valuable inside. Since you can't scan double-wraps, it's like a birthday present: It could be the sweet new console/gaming rig/television - or a voucher for a dinner with aunt Mary.



Unless Red Frog changed their policy, they double wrap everything.

And freighters getting ganked daily with less than 1b cargo? Simple:

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=20085357 Your own alliance does so.
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=20084830 And one of your little "birthday presents"

Any freighter carrying more than 5b of cargo deserves to be ganked, though. There is a certain point when Darwinism NEEDS to take effect or carebears will just take over EVE, and then what bloated nullsec bloc am I supposed to shoot at?

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2013-10-20 17:50:05 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
And freighters getting ganked daily with less than 1b cargo? Simple:

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=20085357 Your own alliance does so.
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=20084830 And one of your little "birthday presents"


You may notice that in both cases there was plastic wrap involved, which (when there's more than 1 wrap) can mean big payout or nothing. In the first kill there were 4 couriers, that could have been huge, but you can't tell from the killmail, since :ccp: only shows plastic wrap as a content of a double-wrapped package. You can see that the cargo displayed was in none of the wraps, else it would have shown as dropped.
Annette Nolen
Perkone
Caldari State
#77 - 2013-10-20 18:57:47 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:


Unless Red Frog changed their policy, they double wrap everything.



Red Frog does not double wrap and hasn't for a while for the exact reasons pointed out here.
Psychoactive Stimulant
#78 - 2013-10-20 19:21:43 UTC
Siting inflation at the same time as crying for freighter buffs is counter-intuitive.

Things getting blown up, making isk unrecoverable in-game HELPS KEEP INFLATION DOWN.

Sinks and faucets, dude. Sinks and faucets.
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#79 - 2013-10-20 19:23:44 UTC
Psychoactive Stimulant wrote:
Siting inflation at the same time as crying for freighter buffs is counter-intuitive.

Things getting blown up, making isk unrecoverable in-game HELPS KEEP INFLATION DOWN.

Sinks and faucets, dude. Sinks and faucets.


How is blowing stuff up removing ISK from the game? Hint: A freighter gank INJECTS several hundred million ISK due to insurance payouts.
Psychoactive Stimulant
#80 - 2013-10-20 19:41:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Psychoactive Stimulant
If you ganked an amarr station, instead of a freighter, you would not make money from insurance payouts.

If you gank a freighter, which itself costs more than 1b, with like 1b more cargo in it, with a 50% destruction rate. There is no way mathematically possible that more was "fauceted" than "sinked".

Ganking is goooooood for the economy.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=20068663

How much did that gank inject?