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Getting newbies out of their comfort zone

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Solstice Project's Alt
Doomheim
#161 - 2013-10-20 12:57:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Solstice Project's Alt
Amber Kurvora wrote:
You're assuming there needs to be conflict in every corner of the galaxy. The reason three different play zones exist is so people can play exactly how they want to play. Want to mine your carebear heart away or play the markets? High Sec. Want to shiver your timbred and drink copious amounts of rum whilst waving your cutlass over your head? Low and Null are calling you. Want to fight in epic (for epic read blob), fighting over systems and resources? Null is where it's at.

It may be shocking, but maybe people don't always want to have to be watching their back. High sec has always been good to retreat to if you're suffering burn out from the rest of Eve.
*facepalm*

Edit: You have a very shallow way of thinking about how the game works.

Buy Solstice Project for PLEX4GOOD ! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=301266 (this alt-character will get deleted once the sale is done, on 6th of december)
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#162 - 2013-10-20 12:58:52 UTC
Solstice Project's Alt wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:


EVE is a funny thing, but the fun is running out. No matter how hard they try, they're mindlocked in the "must be this tall" mentality. Latest case in point: the just announced exploration "Ghost sites" which may drop BPC to build player-made implants. Do we need to ask what are the chances of such a drop in hisec Ghost sites? "You must be this tall to play", effectively. Yet they'll take your money no matter else... Roll



If you actually believe this


You have not only handicapped your EvE experience DRASTICALLY



You may even be a detriment to those you seek to mentor
There are way too many people who have no clue of the game,
but believe they should teach others ...

Not specifically talking about Ish...


Anyhow ... i'm still waiting for somebody to realise the obvious solution to the whole "issue" ...


I already pointed it... drive gameplay where the players are rather than bother them so they play the way they don't want to play.

And NO, i do not mean "themepark". Try thinking out of the box - how about political PvP, struggling to control NPC entities through influence? (sorry if someone's mind got blown by implying that there's more to PvP than asplode ships).

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Solstice Project's Alt
Doomheim
#163 - 2013-10-20 12:58:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Solstice Project's Alt
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Solstice Project's Alt wrote:
I don't understand the "push the envelope" metaphor and
subsequently have no idea what you're trying to say.

The only thing i see is that you believe that the players create the "issue",
which is pretty much correct, but not addressing it properly.

The embiggened text is what I am agreeing with
i.e. Your assertion that The "problem" is not actually a problem as it can easily be solved by folk engaging their brain before their mouth
The "envelope" metaphor finds its roots in ancient Egypt, where scribes
were not permitted to move from their seats until they had finished the writings they were working on

When a scribe was tired of writing something the normative way, he would fold the scroll into an envelope shape and "push the envelope" off the table

Then his task would be to retreive it from the floor, but without getting up from his seat

This became a way of saying "think of a new way to do something as there is always a new way"

And thats where we get the phrase "push the envelope" from

And in a way Jesus is like that

EvE! I mean EvE is like that

Sorry
I really like your way of thinking. :)

Buy Solstice Project for PLEX4GOOD ! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=301266 (this alt-character will get deleted once the sale is done, on 6th of december)
Solstice Project's Alt
Doomheim
#164 - 2013-10-20 13:01:36 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
I already pointed it... drive gameplay where the players are rather than bother them so they play the way they don't want to play.

And NO, i do not mean "themepark". Try thinking out of the box - how about political PvP, struggling to control NPC entities through influence? (sorry if someone's mind got blown by implying that there's more to PvP than asplode ships).
"Drive gameplay where the players are"

If you actually know what that means, then you should put it into detail,
because your words don't actually say anything.

I fail to see how this adresses the new players at all. Actually, i fail to see how this
is on topic regarding the new player "issue".

Buy Solstice Project for PLEX4GOOD ! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=301266 (this alt-character will get deleted once the sale is done, on 6th of december)
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#165 - 2013-10-20 13:02:13 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Anyone predicting behaviors of video game players and the industry itself especially now, is either unaware of what's going on or is just pipe-dreaming.

It's an industry floundering in a sea of its own jeopardy for the moment.

The Industry is seemingly only wanting to turn a blind eye towards its own mistakes (betcha nobody had money 2 years ago on SimCity becoming a hated product).

Yeah, wasn't predicting, just observing.

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#166 - 2013-10-20 13:03:06 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:


I already pointed it... drive gameplay where the players are rather than bother them so they play the way they don't want to play.




Players drive the gameplay


Not any false God idol in the sky


This is what has made EvE great



FOR THINE IS THE KINGDOM

THE POWER AND THE GLORY

FOREVER AND EVER


AMARR VICTOR

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Amber Kurvora
#167 - 2013-10-20 13:05:59 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Amber Kurvora wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Alongside this, player corps need to be made more attractive, with incentives to be in a player corp. NPC corps should be for NPCs.


That's up to the players, and nothing CCP can do about that. Neighborhoods for example are all pretty much alike by design. What happens to them depends upon the particular people that move in.

And EVE players have had over a DECADE to change the situation, with no effect. That is hardly CCP's issue to figure out. Social dynamics are what they are. Especially in a Sandbox.


No, it's not. The players have nothing to do with the simple fact that a highsec corp is basically just a chat channel. They can't own anything, there is nothing to fight over, nothing to defend.

Highsec pocos are a start.



You're assuming there needs to be conflict in every corner of the galaxy. The reason three different play zones exist is so people can play exactly how they want to play. Want to mine your carebear heart away or play the markets? High Sec. Want to shiver your timbred and drink copious amounts of rum whilst waving your cutlass over your head? Low and Null are calling you. Want to fight in epic (for epic read blob), fighting over systems and resources? Null is where it's at.

It may be shocking, but maybe people don't always want to have to be watching their back. High sec has always been good to retreat to if you're suffering burn out from the rest of Eve.


So, tell me why you think highsec should be immune? Or, deserves to be, might be the better question. All I can say about that is, no more Trammels.

Oh, and there are 4 different play zones, by the way.



Immune to null style empire building? Immune to Null style ganking? It isn't immune. You have war decs if you want to get your horn on, and numerous ways to ruin someone's day with a gank or scam. I just think it's at the right level for PvP due to the fact that noobs need somewhere to grow, if they don't want to be dealing with the other parts of Eve, and if a carebear wishes to carebear, they should be able to do so without having to join a corp or alliance. I'll freely admit I enjoy having a slice of Eve I'm not constantly checking local or D-scan. It doesn't mean I won't die in some horrible fashion, just that who ever ganks me is going to be creative or really willing to lose sec status to do so.


By the way, if you think pointing out that I missed W-space will make you look bigger in the eyes of the forum, then may your e-penis feel a few mms bigger.
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#168 - 2013-10-20 13:06:42 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
So, tell me why you think highsec should be immune? Or, deserves to be, might be the better question. All I can say about that is, no more Trammels.

Oh, and there are 4 different play zones, by the way.

So, go back and point out where he said "highsec" should be immune? Or anything like that.

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.
Solstice Project's Alt
Doomheim
#169 - 2013-10-20 13:08:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Solstice Project's Alt
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
So, tell me why you think highsec should be immune? Or, deserves to be, might be the better question. All I can say about that is, no more Trammels.

Oh, and there are 4 different play zones, by the way.

So, go back and point out where he said "highsec" should be immune? Or anything like that.
You people are totally ignoring the actual issue in your sub-discussion.

He was responding to something that was badly worded from the start,
which created misunderstandings he addresses in a bad fashion.

It's like having an error in a big equation,
not realising said error,
and continuing the equation with that error.


Unless you people learn how to express yourself in a detailed manner,
which is pretty much above language issues and more related to the way of thinking,
there is no point for you to even try talking to each other.

You can see this **** in pretty much every thread.

Buy Solstice Project for PLEX4GOOD ! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=301266 (this alt-character will get deleted once the sale is done, on 6th of december)
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#170 - 2013-10-20 13:11:22 UTC
Solstice Project's Alt wrote:
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
So, tell me why you think highsec should be immune? Or, deserves to be, might be the better question. All I can say about that is, no more Trammels.

Oh, and there are 4 different play zones, by the way.

So, go back and point out where he said "highsec" should be immune? Or anything like that.
You people are totally ignoring the actual issue.

He was responding to something that was badly worded from the start,
which created misunderstandings he addresses in a bad fashion.

It's like having an error in a big equation,
not realising said error,
and continuing the equation with that error.


Unless you people learn how to express yourself in a detailed manner,
which is pretty much above language issues and more related to the way of thinking,
there is no point for you to even try talking to each other.

You can see this **** in pretty much every thread.

Yes, and the OP is worded badly as well.

Actually, this whole topic was beat to **** four years ago, CCP has kinda kept it the way it is. I mean, it's not like they've *missed* the existence of hi-sec.....

Roll

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#171 - 2013-10-20 13:13:38 UTC
Solstice Project's Alt wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
I already pointed it... drive gameplay where the players are rather than bother them so they play the way they don't want to play.

And NO, i do not mean "themepark". Try thinking out of the box - how about political PvP, struggling to control NPC entities through influence? (sorry if someone's mind got blown by implying that there's more to PvP than asplode ships).
"Drive gameplay where the players are"

If you actually know what that means, then you should put it into detail,
because your words don't actually say anything.

I fail to see how this adresses the new players at all. Actually, i fail to see how this
is on topic regarding the new player "issue".


"60% of players stay in hisec" = give them player generated hisec content to keep them subscribed
"74% of players didn't consider that PvP was a reason to subscribe to EVE" = give them other things to do than PvP (like, player driven PvE)
"lone players are more than half the total" = give them things they can achieve and succeed at on their own

So far, CCP has been notoriously unsuccesful in convincing the mountain to go to EVE. Maybe they should try and bring EVE to the mountain.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#172 - 2013-10-20 13:15:27 UTC
Quote:
Immune to null style empire building? Immune to Null style ganking? It isn't immune. You have war decs if you want to get your horn on


But that's the problem. No, I don't. They don't work, and in general are a waste of money and time. Awoxing is far easier.

You even said it yourself, you don't want to have to watch D-scan, or local, or actually have to do anything to defend yourself.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#173 - 2013-10-20 13:16:29 UTC
so if NPC corps and their dec shield are so overpowered, how come the tax haven status and corporate management of wallets/bookmarks etc. are desirable enough for me to form my own holding corp?

i mean, here i am, the desire of every eve-o forum fantisist, the player who can be attacked like a corp. yet no war has been declared on me yet. i even post on my main. all the things newbs are a feared of.

of course due dilligence will show that i fly stealthies a lot and have some PvP experience. I might be a 'problem'

(probably not though, i don't accept 'duels')

forums.  serious business.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#174 - 2013-10-20 13:19:48 UTC
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
so if NPC corps and their dec shield are so overpowered, how come the tax haven status and corporate management of wallets/bookmarks etc. are desirable enough for me to form my own holding corp?

i mean, here i am, the desire of every eve-o forum fantisist, the player who can be attacked like a corp. yet no war has been declared on me yet. i even post on my main. all the things newbs are a feared of.

of course due dilligence will show that i fly stealthies a lot and have some PvP experience. I might be a 'problem'

(probably not though, i don't accept 'duels')


You'd be surprised at the infrequency with which one man corps get decced. Further, unless you actually have any assets, even should you get decced, you can drop and reform, and chuckle.

That's why. Now stop trying to obfuscate the discussion, please.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Amber Kurvora
#175 - 2013-10-20 13:19:55 UTC
Solstice Project's Alt wrote:
Amber Kurvora wrote:
You're assuming there needs to be conflict in every corner of the galaxy. The reason three different play zones exist is so people can play exactly how they want to play. Want to mine your carebear heart away or play the markets? High Sec. Want to shiver your timbred and drink copious amounts of rum whilst waving your cutlass over your head? Low and Null are calling you. Want to fight in epic (for epic read blob), fighting over systems and resources? Null is where it's at.

It may be shocking, but maybe people don't always want to have to be watching their back. High sec has always been good to retreat to if you're suffering burn out from the rest of Eve.
*facepalm*

Edit: You have a very shallow way of thinking about how the game works.




Let me count the way that is a valid counter argument... No, wait, you failed to even explain anything beyond a casual observation. I have no more an idea of why you hold this opinion, so how am I supposed to change my thinking if you provide a good counter arguments? It's the essay handed back to you with a grade, but missing any reasoning as to why you failed, or gained the mark you did.
Amber Kurvora
#176 - 2013-10-20 13:21:03 UTC
Amber Kurvora wrote:
Solstice Project's Alt wrote:
Amber Kurvora wrote:
You're assuming there needs to be conflict in every corner of the galaxy. The reason three different play zones exist is so people can play exactly how they want to play. Want to mine your carebear heart away or play the markets? High Sec. Want to shiver your timbred and drink copious amounts of rum whilst waving your cutlass over your head? Low and Null are calling you. Want to fight in epic (for epic read blob), fighting over systems and resources? Null is where it's at.

It may be shocking, but maybe people don't always want to have to be watching their back. High sec has always been good to retreat to if you're suffering burn out from the rest of Eve.
*facepalm*

Edit: You have a very shallow way of thinking about how the game works.




Let me count the way that is a valid counter argument... No, wait, you failed to even explain anything beyond a casual observation. I have no more an idea of why you hold this opinion, so how am I supposed to change my thinking if you provide a good counter arguments? It's the essay handed back to you with a grade, but missing any reasoning as to why you failed, or gained the that mark you did.

Weiland Taur
The Icarus Expedition
Solyaris Chtonium
#177 - 2013-10-20 13:22:23 UTC

Having read through this thread again and again I am still unable to see what the problem is that the OP is so concerned about. Some players like the cultures of hisec, some enjoy the cultures of low or null. Some intermingle. CCP has given us the virtual sci-fi equivelant of the highschool lunchroom. No one has had made a convincing argument as to why players should switch from one sphere to another and how that would make game play in general better.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#178 - 2013-10-20 13:25:42 UTC
Weiland Taur wrote:

Having read through this thread again and again I am still unable to see what the problem is that the OP is so concerned about. Some players like the cultures of hisec, some enjoy the cultures of low or null. Some intermingle. CCP has given us the virtual sci-fi equivelant of the highschool lunchroom. No one has had made a convincing argument as to why players should switch from one sphere to another and how that would make game play in general better.


The argument I have seen is that EVE's PvE is atrociously bad, and is not useful for player retention. People stay subbed to EVE for the PvP, by and large.

But there's not much PvP in highsec, and even less if people are still sitting around in NPC corps.

The aim is to improve player retention by not kneecapping people into being stuck in NPC corps in highsec until they get bored and quit. Because PvE isn't fun, and PvP is.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#179 - 2013-10-20 13:26:30 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
so if NPC corps and their dec shield are so overpowered, how come the tax haven status and corporate management of wallets/bookmarks etc. are desirable enough for me to form my own holding corp?

i mean, here i am, the desire of every eve-o forum fantisist, the player who can be attacked like a corp. yet no war has been declared on me yet. i even post on my main. all the things newbs are a feared of.

of course due dilligence will show that i fly stealthies a lot and have some PvP experience. I might be a 'problem'

(probably not though, i don't accept 'duels')


You'd be surprised at the infrequency with which one man corps get decced. Further, unless you actually have any assets, even should you get decced, you can drop and reform, and chuckle.

That's why. Now stop trying to obfuscate the discussion, please.


I'm just trying to help newbies out of their comfort zone.

there's more to eve than griefing noobs and camping low/high gates. you don't want to get stuck doing that for years you'll be sad.

forums.  serious business.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#180 - 2013-10-20 13:27:12 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:


"60% of players stay in hisec" = give them player generated hisec content to keep them subscribed
"74% of players didn't consider that PvP was a reason to subscribe to EVE" = give them other things to do than PvP (like, player driven PvE)
"lone players are more than half the total" = give them things they can achieve and succeed at on their own

So far, CCP has been notoriously unsuccesful in convincing the mountain to go to EVE. Maybe they should try and bring EVE to the mountain.



Am I the only one who is having a hard time understanding this?

How does a developer give the players player-generated content?

What is Player-driven PvE if it isnt... Player vs Environment?

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann