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Dev Blog: No Honor Among Thieves - Siphon Units in Rubicon

First post First post First post
Author
Johnny Marzetti
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#781 - 2013-10-18 15:13:45 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
Teshania wrote:
I love it, Now moon mining is no longer a *Passive Income*

Moon mining is not passive income. Moon mining is PvP income. I will keep repeating this until people who have never fought over a POS get the idea.


Have fun repeating this forever.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#782 - 2013-10-18 15:14:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Soldarius
When the initial release was made about syphons I thought that they had the potential for a huge amount of abuse. But I waited patiently to see what would be cooked up. In the mean time, I imagined groups of players using blops and blockade runners to drop covertly into a system. They would anchor dozens of syphons on a single POS (doable but not easy) to briefly disrupt and steal everything they could get their hands on. At least that would require a concerted effort by multiple players.

But with the current stats 1 syphon will pull 60% of a moon's single resource output per hour. (Raws are 1m3 per unit.) Total take is reduced by 20% wastage. 60-12 = 48 units of raw goo per hour up to 1200 units. This syphon will be full in exactly 25 hours. 2 of them will completely shut down any single resource harvesting. 8 will shut down all harvesting on even a 4 resource moon.

20m3 in volume. That's it? A Mobile Small Warp Disruptor I is 65m3. 8 would require only 160m3 in cargo space. An Anathema covert ops frigate has a 190m3 cargohold. A single covert ops frigate could literally shut down all harvesting at a tower, log out at a safe, and then come back tomorrow at the same time to light the covert cyno for a single blockade runner to come get the goo when the syphons are full. (Yes, it can be done.)

One person with 3 accounts can do this.

Abuseable doesn't even begin to describe how bad these numbers are. If this goes live on TQ, every R64-holding alliance in the game is going to take down their moon-mining towers and quit because every R64 they own will be constantly and permanently syphoned.

The goo will not flow.

Besides parking a POS gunner at every moon mining/reaction tower in the game (more alts for the alt throne) this situation can be avoided easily at this stage. Any of these below changes would make things better. But primarily, the volume of syphons and amount syphoned have to be adjusted.


  • Make smalls syphon 6 units per hour, not 60. Or a certain small percentage of whatever is coming out, like 5%. 60 is pants-on-head ********.

  • Smalls can only syphon from raw extraction.

  • Mediums: raw and simple reactors.

  • Larges: raw, simple, and complex.

  • Make them require to be anchored to work.

  • Only 1 can be anchored at a time at any moon.

  • Make syphons much larger in volume.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Speedkermit Damo
Invicta.
Muffins of Mayhem
#783 - 2013-10-18 15:15:13 UTC
I wouldn't be surprised at all if alliance members go round nicking their own alliances moon-goo.

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.

Kadl
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#784 - 2013-10-18 15:18:18 UTC
Miner Hottie wrote:
I am quite certain they will happily run around the 20 to 50 odd moons in the average system to find a small and ****** bit of EHP to grind for no money. Makes perfect sense.


So long as d-scan works, noting that siphons were dropped should be simple. There is still the issue that the security status for ratting might not encourage anyone to be in system. Perhaps that means the ratters should receive a nice payment for handling the siphons.
Mister McDerp
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#785 - 2013-10-18 15:19:03 UTC
Kat Aclysm made pretty good suggestions how this module could not be total crap
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#786 - 2013-10-18 15:19:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdiel Kavash
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised at all if alliance members go round nicking their own alliances moon-goo.

I don't understand why so many randoms seem to think that everyone in a null alliance secretly hates their own alliance... why the heck would I go about stealing the goo that pays for my ships? If anything, it's in my best interest to blap every single one of the damn things I see. Just another crap to grind through without any fun gameplay (read: shooting people).

Not only we need to grind through structures to capture space nobody is defending, now we will have to continuously grind through structures to keep profiting from our space that nobody is attacking.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#787 - 2013-10-18 15:24:40 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
Miner Hottie wrote:

Ah yes, my corp and alliance mates will save the day! Why didn't I realise that before! It must be, hmm, let me think. Oh yeah, any self respecting ratter rats in the systems with the best sec status and does that correlate with most tower farms are? Hmm.. maybe it doesn't. Also, most PVE players tend to POS up the moment a neutral comes in system and they wander off to do something else until the the neural gets blue balled. I am quite certain they will happily run around the 20 to 50 odd moons in the average system to find a small and ****** bit of EHP to grind for no money. Makes perfect sense.


you have heard of providence right? terrible true sec but filled with ratters.

and yes if you provide free rent to null bears they will be more then happy to patrol the system for you. (i know i would if i were offered the system rent free)

hell just say to the renter if any moon goo is lost you have to pay me the difference.

plus d-scan will help reduce the amount of posses you have to fly too. (though those pesky systems with 20 moons around one planet will be a ***** to partrol)

moreover good true sec is usually taken by the host alliance and not the renters. so its logical to just shift some renters to key systems that hold r64-r32 moons.

also you can let the renter know which moons to monitor. (afaik there are limited amount of r64 moons... are there any systems where you have multiple r64 moons? or is it more one r64 max per system?)

think of it as an oppurtunity to fill 0.0 with bears that then can be hunted and provide fun between strat ops.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Frankster Ijonen
Butlerian Crusade
#788 - 2013-10-18 15:29:20 UTC
I think this is really well thought out. It takes power out of the hands of alliance leadership, and allows small entities or their own line members! - to get their hands on the moon goo. This means that moon goo will never be as subject to restricted supply and market manipulation as was seen in the days of OTEC/NOTEC. This will be good for the market overall and contrary to some goon claims, will make the market more resilient.

I also see this as an opening up of moons to all players. Realistically you need to be in a group of a certain size to control a moon and engage in PVP. This means that for much of the player-base, moon goo means exactly nothing to them. After this change, even a solo player will be able to fly around hunting for siphons others have placed, or dropping their own. This definitely adds depth, and things to do to the game for all players which is A Good Thing.

There will be more activities to conduct while roaming through enemy territory - dropping siphons, or collecting from them (a little?). This might give more reasons to roam, and cause people to spend more time in systems which I suspect will mean there is a greater chance for battles to occur. Perhaps systems owners will even leave one siphon in each system to provide an ambushing point?

Speedkermit Damo
Invicta.
Muffins of Mayhem
#789 - 2013-10-18 15:34:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Speedkermit Damo
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
Not only we need to grind through structures to capture space nobody is defending, now we will have to continuously grind through structures to keep profiting from our space that nobody is attacking.


Hark!

I think I hear violins.

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.

Miner Hottie
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#790 - 2013-10-18 15:36:54 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Miner Hottie wrote:

Ah yes, my corp and alliance mates will save the day! Why didn't I realise that before! It must be, hmm, let me think. Oh yeah, any self respecting ratter rats in the systems with the best sec status and does that correlate with most tower farms are? Hmm.. maybe it doesn't. Also, most PVE players tend to POS up the moment a neutral comes in system and they wander off to do something else until the the neural gets blue balled. I am quite certain they will happily run around the 20 to 50 odd moons in the average system to find a small and ****** bit of EHP to grind for no money. Makes perfect sense.


you have heard of providence right? terrible true sec but filled with ratters.

and yes if you provide free rent to null bears they will be more then happy to patrol the system for you. (i know i would if i were offered the system rent free)

hell just say to the renter if any moon goo is lost you have to pay me the difference.

plus d-scan will help reduce the amount of posses you have to fly too. (though those pesky systems with 20 moons around one planet will be a ***** to partrol)

moreover good true sec is usually taken by the host alliance and not the renters. so its logical to just shift some renters to key systems that hold r64-r32 moons.

also you can let the renter know which moons to monitor. (afaik there are limited amount of r64 moons... are there any systems where you have multiple r64 moons? or is it more one r64 max per system?)

think of it as an oppurtunity to fill 0.0 with bears that then can be hunted and provide fun between strat ops.


Now I think I understand why you're in a NPC corp.

It's all about how hot my mining lasers get.

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#791 - 2013-10-18 15:50:02 UTC
to have a fully asynchronous mechanic but still some form of conflict you would have to add an active but asynchronous counter to it.

example:
- parasite deployes syphons, goes to bed
- syphons do their work
- pos owner or corp member notices syphons but all he can do is to partially undo the damage (which is not fun)

new:
- pos owner or corp member hacks syphon and converts it into a trap
- syphon stops working but the parasite doesn't know it
- if the parasite comes to take the resources out of it the hacked spyhon it will point the parasite
- parasite should now better burn out of point range and run before the pos becomes active (or even worse, the pos owner)

-> full asynchronous cycle where both parties can actually take part in and damage a party. The current implementation allows only damage control for the pos owner but no retribution.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#792 - 2013-10-18 15:50:55 UTC
Miner Hottie wrote:

Now I think I understand why you're in a NPC corp.


yes my jita price check and cyno alt is in a npc corp...

do you have a valid point to make or just stating it as an observation.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Kat Ayclism
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#793 - 2013-10-18 15:53:50 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Miner Hottie wrote:

Ah yes, my corp and alliance mates will save the day! Why didn't I realise that before! It must be, hmm, let me think. Oh yeah, any self respecting ratter rats in the systems with the best sec status and does that correlate with most tower farms are? Hmm.. maybe it doesn't. Also, most PVE players tend to POS up the moment a neutral comes in system and they wander off to do something else until the the neural gets blue balled. I am quite certain they will happily run around the 20 to 50 odd moons in the average system to find a small and ****** bit of EHP to grind for no money. Makes perfect sense.


you have heard of providence right? terrible true sec but filled with ratters.

and yes if you provide free rent to null bears they will be more then happy to patrol the system for you. (i know i would if i were offered the system rent free)

hell just say to the renter if any moon goo is lost you have to pay me the difference.

plus d-scan will help reduce the amount of posses you have to fly too. (though those pesky systems with 20 moons around one planet will be a ***** to partrol)

moreover good true sec is usually taken by the host alliance and not the renters. so its logical to just shift some renters to key systems that hold r64-r32 moons.

also you can let the renter know which moons to monitor. (afaik there are limited amount of r64 moons... are there any systems where you have multiple r64 moons? or is it more one r64 max per system?)

think of it as an oppurtunity to fill 0.0 with bears that then can be hunted and provide fun between strat ops.

You seem to be under the ridiculous delusion that

1) all moon owners own r64
2) only large groups own moons

All of that's flat out untrue. Small lowsec groups do happen to own moons, friend, and they are going to be far less able to absorb the way these can completely nullify that income. They also just so happen to be the types I referred to earlier that are far more timezone locked and thus unable to keep the coverage necessary to constantly patrol for these things.

20 mil to grief them out of a third-to-half a day's moon output assuming they're on the ball checking every day? And you think that's a good thing?

Miner Hottie
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#794 - 2013-10-18 15:58:16 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Miner Hottie wrote:

Now I think I understand why you're in a NPC corp.


yes my jita price check and cyno alt is in a npc corp...

do you have a valid point to make or just stating it as an observation.


Expressing my understanding of your point and position. Don't agree with it, but eh, CCP is determined to ignore us and implement this and then they will nerf it to oblivion once goons complete the cycle of deliberate abuse that has started now that they have warned CCP about it being OP.

It's all about how hot my mining lasers get.

Jack Haydn
Magellanic Itg
Goonswarm Federation
#795 - 2013-10-18 16:09:20 UTC
That feature in itself is a pretty nice idea, but there's so many bad design decisions around the current implementation, it's mind boggling. There has been a lot of discussion on the game mechanic aspects already, but me personally, as a dev, can't believe that you are going to intentionally report false data on an API.

The API makes the game less of a burden to a certain extent - certainly, as this is the whole reason of having an API in the first place. It allows people to manage things centrally without logging in and checking and copy/pasting values over all day long. The information which is available through such an API is and should be a 1:1 reflection of the in-game state. Now you want to intentionally deliver wrong data, to work around the horrible design decisions you made around a new feature. That completely breaks the spirit of an API. If you want an API in your game, do it right and deliver accurate data. Otherwise just scrap it - either the API or the feature.

You even have a great tool at hand, with which you can somewhat tune the API effect on your new feature: Cache timers. The asset list right now has a 6h cache timer. Decouple onlined silos from the Asset list, like you did with POS, and put them to the POS Detail or their own API and adjust the cache timer instead. People are working on silos in days or weeks, a 6h interval on their updates is not necessarily required and could be extended to make siphons undetectable for x time.

But really, don't intentionally break your own API. That's a really bad decision.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#796 - 2013-10-18 16:12:41 UTC
Kat Ayclism wrote:
You seem to be under the ridiculous delusion that

1) all moon owners own r64
2) only large groups own moons

All of that's flat out untrue. Small lowsec groups do happen to own moons, friend, and they are going to be far less able to absorb the way these can completely nullify that income. They also just so happen to be the types I referred to earlier that are far more timezone locked and thus unable to keep the coverage necessary to constantly patrol for these things.

20 mil to grief them out of a third-to-half a day's moon output assuming they're on the ball checking every day? And you think that's a good thing?



ah lowsec... yes. ok you have a point there as i do not spend that much time in that space.

when did i say that all moon owners own r64? i was looking at it from your perspective being in PL. so i was using r64 and r32 as examples of money moons. i was looking at the ability for groups like you to have full time coverage.

i know we only setup moon mining to cover the cost of the pos and typically dont make much profit from it.

moreover small groups like the one my main is in usually set up thier poses in system they live in. So as long as you have a good timezone coverage they should be fine. if anything this will make smaller entities team up with other time zone peeps to have full coverage.

I have stated options in previous posts that would enable a reduced amount of checking. like increasing siphon cycle time to 3 hours. this would reduce to checking only 8 times a day. vrs the 24 that would be required in the op.

so that would mean only 8 cycles would be siphoned and not 24 which would still make poses profitable... but when you start putting on more then one it would have to potential to reduce the profit.

personally i think the idea of the siphon unit is a great idea... totally it needs some work and polishing before november 19th but its worth it...


There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Cromzor
Grey Manufacturing
#797 - 2013-10-18 16:13:09 UTC
With the original proposal, these would be spammed everywhere. With the suggested limit of 5-10, it makes the feature kinda boring. Either way, fewer moons will get mined and T2 prices will go up. Do folks want T2 stuff to be more expensive?

I think this feature should wait until after the POS revamp is complete. Then the balance issues can be addressed together and come to a more reasonable result. POS setup, management, and defense is too tedious to have it so easily stolen. Kill it for now and go back to the drawing board.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#798 - 2013-10-18 16:21:12 UTC
Miner Hottie wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
Miner Hottie wrote:

Now I think I understand why you're in a NPC corp.


yes my jita price check and cyno alt is in a npc corp...

do you have a valid point to make or just stating it as an observation.


Expressing my understanding of your point and position. Don't agree with it, but eh, CCP is determined to ignore us and implement this and then they will nerf it to oblivion once goons complete the cycle of deliberate abuse that has started now that they have warned CCP about it being OP.


you will notice i agree with the goons. though i am rather excited to see thier plan put into motion. its truely a great plan if they can pull it off.

correct me if i am wrong but i saw on twitter the other day a goon saying they just finished scanning 75k moons to figure out where all the new r64 are. if they can siphon half of them that would be a great achievement and they would deserve my respect for it.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Aryndel Vyst
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#799 - 2013-10-18 16:22:34 UTC
I concur.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#800 - 2013-10-18 16:22:40 UTC
edit: oops

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.