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Dev Blog: No Honor Among Thieves - Siphon Units in Rubicon

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Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#601 - 2013-10-18 06:06:16 UTC
Gorion Wassenar wrote:
So POS owners having porous borders and defense is my problem? If you want to play space empire, someone is going to have to play sentry.



Yeah, porous borders in a world with warp core stabs, covops cloaks, covert cynos and black ops bridges. Do you know how exciting gate camping is? About as exciting as cutting yourself.

If there was some kind of timer mechanic, that would actually generate pewpew.

A big red warning to the pos owner: someone is stealing your stuff. Be there, tomorrow evening, 20.00 eve time. If you don't, your stuff is gone, if you are, a fight MAY happen, because both you, and the dude who dropped the siphon have a strong incentive to show up.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#602 - 2013-10-18 06:14:05 UTC
As much as I am for the siphon, I am not sold on it destroying minerals or reactions just because it is anchored at the POS.
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#603 - 2013-10-18 06:14:24 UTC
It's really not even worth arguing about. In under two months it will be clear that massive nullsec powerblocs have far more effective ability and patience when it comes to sov structure ping-pong than a bunch of grr goons, self-styled guerrilla, weekend-warriors on vacation from their level four mission hubs. Then goons will use it to make sov war even more eye-stabbingly nauseating than it already is. Then we can bump this thread and all have a good laugh at people's inability to apply basic reasoning to game mechanics and existing facts on the ground.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#604 - 2013-10-18 06:16:15 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
As much as I am for the siphon, I am not sold on it destroying minerals or reactions just because it is anchored at the POS.


Fully agree. This is where the major possibilities for 'abuse' come from.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#605 - 2013-10-18 06:26:05 UTC
Varius Xeral wrote:
It's really not even worth arguing about. In under two months it will be clear that massive nullsec powerblocs have far more effective ability and patience when it comes to sov structure ping-pong than a bunch of grr goons, self-styled guerrilla, weekend-warriors on vacation from their level four mission hubs. Then goons will use it to make sov war even more eye-stabbingly nauseating than it already is. Then we can bump this thread and all have a good laugh at people's inability to apply basic reasoning to game mechanics and existing facts on the ground.

No, because we will have more fun things to laugh at, such as "the whole of PL was preparing for the AT" or "we have to save our renters to help us fight gsf, so we are leaving a fight with gsf"

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Luwc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#606 - 2013-10-18 06:42:01 UTC
[instert meme here]
Caption :

~ CCP ~

Implements system to steal ressources from blocs
blocs use it to steal ressources from scrubs.




http://hugelolcdn.com/i/267520.gif
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#607 - 2013-10-18 07:13:48 UTC
Luwc wrote:
[instert meme here]
Caption :

~ CCP ~

Implements system to steal ressources from blocs
blocs use it to steal ressources from scrubs.

Scrubs have stuff to steal?
Gorion Wassenar
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#608 - 2013-10-18 07:14:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Gorion Wassenar
Gilbaron wrote:
Gorion Wassenar wrote:
So POS owners having porous borders and defense is my problem? If you want to play space empire, someone is going to have to play sentry.



Yeah, porous borders in a world with warp core stabs, covops cloaks, covert cynos and black ops bridges. Do you know how exciting gate camping is? About as exciting as cutting yourself.

If there was some kind of timer mechanic, that would actually generate pewpew.

A big red warning to the pos owner: someone is stealing your stuff. Be there, tomorrow evening, 20.00 eve time. If you don't, your stuff is gone, if you are, a fight MAY happen, because both you, and the dude who dropped the siphon have a strong incentive to show up.


Yeah I totally wish smugglers and thieves would send me an ETA. "Ohhey by the way we are going to start digging a tunnel in this section of the border. We'll both be there at noon."


You want a space empire, you have to actually patrol it. Sorry.

Rote Kapelle - NOW IN SLIGHTLY MORE LAW ABIDING FLAVOR!

"DRINK STARSI!" ©®™Ownership Group Chairman
Neave LaFontaine
13.
#609 - 2013-10-18 07:27:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Neave LaFontaine
pmchem wrote:
For a moment, let us imagine the future equilibrium for this gameplay element:

Guy with cargo-expanded covert cloaking ship and a bunch of siphons is AFK cloaking in a system with a R32 or R64 moon. He un-AFKs at a random time once or twice a day, drops or scoops siphons. Meanwhile, random griefer with a bubble-immune fast-warp interceptor flies by a dozen moons dropping siphons, including this one.

POS owner has nothing to defeat AFK cloaking or interceptors. They detect unexpected silo levels as their real life schedule allows and log in an alt, gun the POS, and shoot the siphons. In the meantime he's lost all his goo production for a big chunk of the day because there were 8 siphons attached to the POS -- they're so cheap, they're just a fire-and-forget griefer tool. There's no 'timer' at which both forces must meet to determine the fate of the gameplay element, so it's entirely async and the two sides never interact in realtime.

Result: higher moon goo prices, more AFK cloaky alts (which honestly seems to be the sort of terrible gameplay CCP is encouraging these days), nobody particularly having fun unless you enjoy griefing (which, hey, it's EVE -- many do). But nobody is rewarded for spending time developing or living in a system ... only for random, short logins to push butan. It's poor gameplay.

Rubicon: burnt farms and salted fields.


Anyone else notice the high level of goon tears in this thread? Its kinda hilarious really. "Oh noes, one of my income streams will be impacted by dirty pubbies - CCP! Fix it!"

Lol - maybe you will have to actually patrol your bloated empire now, and if you can't maybe you will have to pull back and consolidate...
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#610 - 2013-10-18 07:33:54 UTC
Klyith wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
It just occurred to me but this shyphon unit in principle reminds me of people who ninja salvage wrecks in high sec.
and the fact that people in null sec are somewhat upset about it just spews irony.

Nope, they're quite different.

When I show up in your L4 mission and start stealing wrecks, it's because I'm daring you to fight me. I just stole your lunch money, and while you sputter in spergy rage I'm standing there with my chin out, saying Take your best shot. Of course if you actually hit me you know it'll end badly for you, so you do nothing. But you could. I'm there with my criminal flag, just daring you to get into a fight for once in your life. Very Tyler Durden-esque.


These siphons are nothing like that. Nothing about how they work requires or even invites a fight. They're a flaming bag of dog poo left on my front step, and you rang the doorbell and ran away to hide. When I open the door an see this sad little prank bag. Do I stomp on it, getting hot dogshtt all over my shoe? No, I grab a trashbasket and drop it upside down to smother the fire, then take it to the trash on the curb. A pathetic kid's attempt to rile me up.


Meanwhile, there are about a thousand other goons heading to the houses of people we don't like, and they've got trashbags full of human fecal matter and gasoline. Don't get in a poop war with Goonfleet.


Oh for ffs you actually think stealing mission loot is manly

Look at this clown

.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#611 - 2013-10-18 07:34:33 UTC
The key thing here is that this is designed to make the area lived in, first impact will be on those alliances that have moons where they only go every so often to empty it and where there are a lot of active people, what will happen is that they will be siphons applied to them and the impact will be having to guard them against that, so over time that moon becomes too much of a pain, this will happen in low sec and of course NPC 0.0. Next up will be the R64 sitting in another alliances space, because the POS owner has a huge Super back up taking out the POS is not an option, so at this point they start using siphons, if they are smart they will make sure that people who are not in the sov owning alliance do it, again the people in the local area will start controlling the moons.

I have decided to operate in an area, there are a number of moons here which the alliance is operating, but does not operate in the systems, I will siphon them because I can and reduce the value of the take making the system even more worthless to hold sov on for that alliance. I will do that because I have decided that this is my area of control, funding 2,500 siphons is of course not necessary, but 1bn worth seems a good investment for serious annoyance.

I could not help but notice this:

Krios Ahzek wrote:
Ok I'll spell it out of the mentally deficient.

Renters cannot rebel. If they did, they would lose station access. Renter alliance executor corps are not some sort of democratic publord senate, they are a tyrannic council of main alliance alts. Renters have very few capital ships. They do not work with other renter corps. Even if there WAS a mass rebellion, after every death they would have to go to the nearest NPC station to reship. This is not very different from fighting a regular nullsec war, except the enemies are bad and tiny.


Do you remember that there is another structure called a Personal Structures, I am of course waiting with impatence for details of that little beauty, but this has major implications in terms of your strategic considerations, they don't need capital ships, and in any case its not so much the rebellion you have to worry about but the planted corp that will setup to tie down the main rental systems. This personal structure is the main game changer... Eve is getting interesting.

Also the Goons are going to have to be busy little bees, all those POCO's and all those POS's, I guess you will have to put back the war against N3 a bit Big smileLol

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Zeimanov Kalzumaan
Haruspex Industries
Wrong Alliance
#612 - 2013-10-18 08:19:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Zeimanov Kalzumaan
Dracvlad wrote:
The key thing here is that this is designed to make the area lived in, first impact will be on those alliances that have moons where they only go every so often to empty it and where there are a lot of active people, what will happen is that they will be siphons applied to them and the impact will be having to guard them against that, so over time that moon becomes too much of a pain, this will happen in low sec and of course NPC 0.0. Next up will be the R64 sitting in another alliances space, because the POS owner has a huge Super back up taking out the POS is not an option, so at this point they start using siphons, if they are smart they will make sure that people who are not in the sov owning alliance do it, again the people in the local area will start controlling the moons.

I have decided to operate in an area, there are a number of moons here which the alliance is operating, but does not operate in the systems, I will siphon them because I can and reduce the value of the take making the system even more worthless to hold sov on for that alliance. I will do that because I have decided that this is my area of control, funding 2,500 siphons is of course not necessary, but 1bn worth seems a good investment for serious annoyance.

I could not help but notice this:



Except you are missing the point - all the focus in on BIG ALLIANCES WILL LOSE R64 INCOME HAHAHAHAH - but the poitn about these units is they are so cheap to drop that they will be dumped on reaction POS's in lowesec - including those run by small groups. It doesn't matter that they can destroy them it will cripple the income since these groups can't check them hourly.

At 10m a pop and a cloaky blockade runner able to pack hundereds, there is no disincentive to spam these on any small group operating in NPC nullsec or lowsec. It's not an asynchronous method of warfare, it's a griefing tool to which there is no defence possible. With a cloaked dude in the system you at least can rat ect if you are careful - when he is actually AFK he can't hurt you - but for 10m a time he now can.

Shaking up big 0.0 powerblocs was the intention but all it has done is create the ultimate tool in AFK cloaky griefing.
Joepopo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#613 - 2013-10-18 08:25:03 UTC
CCP Tuxford wrote:
Two step wrote:
Sounds pretty neat. One issue: Using the API, people can tell when stuff is missing from silos. Has this been thought about?


Yes we did. We do track how much is siphoned from what and where it would end up and the API then reports those numbers. It's a bit evil abusing the API in this way but I think it's for the good of the feature.


Seriously, don't mess with the API.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#614 - 2013-10-18 08:25:38 UTC
Quote:
Yeah I totally wish smugglers and thieves would send me an ETA. "Ohhey by the way we are going to start digging a tunnel in this section of the border. We'll both be there at noon."


You want a space empire, you have to actually patrol it. Sorry.


playing whack-a-mole with moles that only show up for seconds on a HUGE playing field is not exactly fun. a well designed feature would have introduced meaningful interaction for both parties. the currently planned implementation avoids every possible interaction between players. that's just plain stupid
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
#615 - 2013-10-18 08:30:53 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
playing whack-a-mole with moles that only show up for seconds on a HUGE playing field is not exactly fun. a well designed feature would have introduced meaningful interaction for both parties. the currently planned implementation avoids every possible interaction between players. that's just plain stupid

Too bad they don't show up on scan.

Nyan
Aman Sand
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#616 - 2013-10-18 08:31:13 UTC
Moon goo prices spikes -> t2 ship prices spikes -> PLEX prices spikes.
It's time to buy PLEX.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#617 - 2013-10-18 08:36:25 UTC
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:
Gilbaron wrote:
playing whack-a-mole with moles that only show up for seconds on a HUGE playing field is not exactly fun. a well designed feature would have introduced meaningful interaction for both parties. the currently planned implementation avoids every possible interaction between players. that's just plain stupid

Too bad they don't show up on scan.


i am not talking about the siphon unit, i am talking about the player dropping them or picking up loot from them
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#618 - 2013-10-18 08:36:37 UTC
Zeimanov Kalzumaan wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
The key thing here is that this is designed to make the area lived in, first impact will be on those alliances that have moons where they only go every so often to empty it and where there are a lot of active people, what will happen is that they will be siphons applied to them and the impact will be having to guard them against that, so over time that moon becomes too much of a pain, this will happen in low sec and of course NPC 0.0. Next up will be the R64 sitting in another alliances space, because the POS owner has a huge Super back up taking out the POS is not an option, so at this point they start using siphons, if they are smart they will make sure that people who are not in the sov owning alliance do it, again the people in the local area will start controlling the moons.

I have decided to operate in an area, there are a number of moons here which the alliance is operating, but does not operate in the systems, I will siphon them because I can and reduce the value of the take making the system even more worthless to hold sov on for that alliance. I will do that because I have decided that this is my area of control, funding 2,500 siphons is of course not necessary, but 1bn worth seems a good investment for serious annoyance.

I could not help but notice this:



Except you are missing the point - all the focus in on BIG ALLIANCES WILL LOSE R64 INCOME HAHAHAHAH - but the poitn about these units is they are so cheap to drop that they will be dumped on reaction POS's in lowesec - including those run by small groups. It doesn't matter that they can destroy them it will cripple the income since these groups can't check them hourly.

At 10m a pop and a cloaky blockade runner able to pack hundereds, there is no disincentive to spam these on any small group operating in NPC nullsec or lowsec. It's not an asynchronous method of warfare, it's a griefing tool to which there is no defence possible. With a cloaked dude in the system you at least can rat ect if you are careful - when he is actually AFK he can't hurt you - but for 10m a time he now can.

Shaking up big 0.0 powerblocs was the intention but all it has done is create the ultimate tool in AFK cloaky griefing.


It is an issue for small entities, but at the end of the day they still have to manage and run their POS's and if that requires them to be active and control their asset then thats life. They will have to have a relationship with the people in the area that are in a different TZ so that they can remove the Siphon, lots of potential merc work there. In fact I might do that, as I can cover a lot of TZ's I can do a siphon cleaning service for them, all they have to do is make me +10 and pay me.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#619 - 2013-10-18 08:38:20 UTC
grr siphons

Katrina Oniseki
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#620 - 2013-10-18 08:45:21 UTC
This is one of the best sandbox features added to the game ever. Thank you CCP.

The Tears Must Flow