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Dev Blog: No Honor Among Thieves - Siphon Units in Rubicon

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Author
Udonor
Doomheim
#581 - 2013-10-18 04:19:31 UTC
Hmmm...lot of people seem to be reading this differently than me.

Idea Siphons might be a good deal if they were cloaked devices requiring a great deal of time to locate manually without a Bookmark.

But I read blog as saying these units are clearly visible on overview -- not stealth. Collection bay is not locked. They are easy destroyed without any CONCORD consequence (though that seems unnecesary given there is no moon goo where CONCORD shows up). And they cost 10M apiece, have low collection rate and cannot be retrieved...

Siphons seem only to be effective when the owner visits only 1-2 times a month to refuel and collect goo. Even then its not too economic to stack bunches of these siphons thinking they will last a long time and collect lots of goo. Siphons are mainly an expensive and low intensity production harassment measure. Once POS owner are aware that siphons exist, they may need to spend as extra 10 minutes to destroy the current crop of siphons whenever they visit. Moreover siphon will be destroyed be corp rank and file PVP members whenever they happen to pass the POS.

Idea Uncloaked siphons with the given parameters might be usefull if they siphoned off Tower CPU or power instead. So tossing out a enough of them could shut down POS guns and modules.









MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#582 - 2013-10-18 04:20:15 UTC
It just occurred to me but this shyphon unit in principle reminds me of people who ninja salvage wrecks in high sec.
and the fact that people in null sec are somewhat upset about it just spews irony.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#583 - 2013-10-18 04:22:22 UTC
a compromise regarding the API problem could work as follows:
- The API only reports "fake" values as long the stolen stuff is still in the deployable (lore: stuff is still in the POS system, POS is happy since it thinks deployable is part of the system)
- as soon someone empties the deployable the POS notices it and the API reports "correct" values of the stuff which is in the POS

in short: automated detection is possible as soon someone takes stuff out of the deployable


regarding balancing:
Something tells me that the main balancing factor is the capacity of those deployables. Even if you drop dozen of them they will stop collecting stuff as soon they are full and the pos will run at 100% efficiency (was not stated in the blog, i could be wrong). Catching covops haulers might become a thing... if you would know when they would appear. Thats the missing link what would make it somewhat balanced. The whole process is relatively risk free for the parasite. (deployable explodes automatically short after it is full or something like that?)

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Gargep Farrow
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#584 - 2013-10-18 04:27:13 UTC
Johnny Marzetti wrote:
Gargep Farrow wrote:
Not being a null dweller I will not comment on how this will affect gameplay there.

What I do want to comment is that if i were to come on to the forums and whine that my Hulk got blown up while I was AFK how much sympathy would I get? Not one damn bit. In fact I would be told about how poor my play style is?

Think about it.


Actually, that's exactly what happened and miners got massive buffs, so maybe you should think about it.


Easy, If I park a Hulk in the wrong belt and go AFK I will come back to my computer and find myself in a station needing to pay to upgrade my clone and buy new implants and Hulk. And again I will still get no sympathy.

Now having said that, aside from the whining about AFK and POS's, I am willing to see your point. Looking at the Warp speed changes also coming in Rubicon, I am willing to believe that this change may also be imbalanced and from the other comments here I could see how it may have bad effects on the game economy. Lower moon goo production coupled with having a harder time finding pilots willing to fly a freighter, that will be even slower than they are now, to get the product to market is not a good thing.

Still dont expect me to show any sympathy for the AFK argument.
Udonor
Doomheim
#585 - 2013-10-18 04:43:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Udonor
Honestly new features like this probably should NOT be written at this time and against a POS model that CCP is promising to radically update within the next year. CCP has no idea of what the new POS will look like in terms of POS modules, POS fits, POS security etc. The more things written like the siphon the harder it will be to code a new POS model in a good and sensible manner - because all sorst of old POS code wil be anchored to pre-mature accessories like sipohons.

True most corp thieves would love to see CCP entrench the current POS model even deeper into EVE to preserve weak security on Corp shared structures like the ship hangar.

However a much larger group would like to see the POS shield bubble go away. Its an unnecessary feature that allows ships under fire to escape combat. The scope of POS shields should go the way of old style Doomsday weapons. When really the unpredictable oscillations of ship shields under fire should never let a ship taken under fire meld and pass the shields of a POS or station.

CCP needs to buckle down to rewriting the new POS model (hopefully a bubbleless one) before wasting time on accessories that if written now will likely need to be largely rewritten to fit a new POS model.
sayasic
The Upside Down
Forfeiture
#586 - 2013-10-18 04:54:46 UTC
Speaking as someone who ran a small corp that had moons, I think this is a great idea! My corp ran sites in the same systems as our moons and our members knew the importance of the moons. If someone dropped these we would know within a couple hours and get them blown up.

This update may encourage huge entities to stop owning moons directly and instead rent them out giving more to smaller corps. Ahuge win in my book.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#587 - 2013-10-18 05:02:32 UTC
Nirnaeth Ornoediad wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
pmchem wrote:
For a moment, let us imagine the future equilibrium for this gameplay element:

Guy with cargo-expanded covert cloaking ship and a bunch of siphons is AFK cloaking in a system with a R32 or R64 moon. He un-AFKs at a random time once or twice a day, drops or scoops siphons. Meanwhile, random griefer with a bubble-immune fast-warp interceptor flies by a dozen moons dropping siphons, including this one.

POS owner has nothing to defeat AFK cloaking or interceptors. They detect unexpected silo levels as their real life schedule allows and log in an alt, gun the POS, and shoot the siphons. In the meantime he's lost all his goo production for a big chunk of the day because there were 8 siphons attached to the POS -- they're so cheap, they're just a fire-and-forget griefer tool. There's no 'timer' at which both forces must meet to determine the fate of the gameplay element, so it's entirely async and the two sides never interact in realtime.

Result: higher moon goo prices, more AFK cloaky alts (which honestly seems to be the sort of terrible gameplay CCP is encouraging these days), nobody particularly having fun unless you enjoy griefing (which, hey, it's EVE -- many do). But nobody is rewarded for spending time developing or living in a system ... only for random, short logins to push butan. It's poor gameplay.

Rubicon: burnt farms and salted fields.

Or... you could actually occupy the space you decide to deploy assets in with other players from your corp, alliance, coalition?

Okay, you be the one to camp all of your POSes with Instacanes. You'll need enough to fast-lock a cloaky hauler--who will need to dumb enough to decloak--or to alpha an inty who might land well outside of optimal.

The problem with this mechanic isn't that "living in your space can prevent it"; the problem is that the opportunity cost for the aggressor is so low compared to the massive PIA it will create for POS owners.

Ironically, GSF has by far the best operational capability to blanket entire Regions with these things.

Oh, really.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Chigurh Friendo
Fight The Blob
Kingless.
#588 - 2013-10-18 05:14:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Chigurh Friendo
One recurring comment in this thread that I feel compelled to address is the notion that our poor, woefully helpless POS owners will be subject to "structure grinding" ("Oh noes!!!") should they wish to eliminate hostile Mobile Siphon Units from their moon harvesting POSes. This assertion is just completely baseless, and it undermines a position already anchored (if you'll pardon the puns) in tenuous credibility.

The new siphon module, having roughly 50,000 - 100,000 ehp will require roughly 3.3 minutes to "structure grind"... and that assumes a moderate level of damage output (500 dps vs. 100k ehp).

"That long!? Whatever will we do!? Heavens no!!"

While it is laughable to consider this interval of time "structure grinding", I'm sure that even our 20-page-thread-worth of teery-eyed, ****-posting POS-owning friends will figure out a way to speed the process along.

You see, I think we can all agree that this new 'requirement' for our API-fueled, logged off POS lords fits more aptly in the category of "POS-alt pvp aggrandizement" or "POS hygiene" than it does "structure grinding". Consider, for instance, that the aforementioned timeframes and damage rates are more akin to killing belt-rats than "structure grinding"... and that in exchange, the POS owner will get the satisfaction of a glorious Mobile Siphon Unit killmail ("Now with 10M valuation!!! Residual Goon saline sold separately!!!") on their normally useless POS-specific alt... an alt that previously would only get to enjoy brief intervals of being logged in once every two-weeks... and you'll see what I mean. Also, you'll have to understand that with this current rebranding effort from "structure grinding" to the "glorious pvp betterment of POS alts everywhere", that I'm just trying to help you see guys the upside.

"But what if our dirty rotten scoundrel enemies drop TOO MANY Mobile Siphon Units. What then!?"

Well, far be it from me to tell you guys how to nullsec, but one option you might consider is living in your ******* space and actually responding to movements in that territory... instead of bitching about how your ******* income source ought to be an entirely logged-out AFK-based activity.
Klyith
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#589 - 2013-10-18 05:15:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Klyith
MeBiatch wrote:
It just occurred to me but this shyphon unit in principle reminds me of people who ninja salvage wrecks in high sec.
and the fact that people in null sec are somewhat upset about it just spews irony.

Nope, they're quite different.

When I show up in your L4 mission and start stealing wrecks, it's because I'm daring you to fight me. I just stole your lunch money, and while you sputter in spergy rage I'm standing there with my chin out, saying Take your best shot. Of course if you actually hit me you know it'll end badly for you, so you do nothing. But you could. I'm there with my criminal flag, just daring you to get into a fight for once in your life. Very Tyler Durden-esque.


These siphons are nothing like that. Nothing about how they work requires or even invites a fight. They're a flaming bag of dog poo left on my front step, and you rang the doorbell and ran away to hide. When I open the door an see this sad little prank bag. Do I stomp on it, getting hot dogshtt all over my shoe? No, I grab a trashbasket and drop it upside down to smother the fire, then take it to the trash on the curb. A pathetic kid's attempt to rile me up.


Meanwhile, there are about a thousand other goons heading to the houses of people we don't like, and they've got trashbags full of human fecal matter and gasoline. Don't get in a poop war with Goonfleet.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#590 - 2013-10-18 05:29:20 UTC
Klyith wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
It just occurred to me but this shyphon unit in principle reminds me of people who ninja salvage wrecks in high sec.
and the fact that people in null sec are somewhat upset about it just spews irony.

Nope, they're quite different.

When I show up in your L4 mission and start stealing wrecks, it's because I'm daring you to fight me. I just stole your lunch money, and while you sputter in spergy rage I'm standing there with my chin out, saying Take your best shot. Of course if you actually hit me you know it'll end badly for you, so you do nothing. But you could. I'm there with my criminal flag, just daring you to get into a fight for once in your life. Very Tyler Durden-esque.


These siphons are nothing like that. Nothing about how they work requires or even invites a fight. They're a flaming bag of dog poo left on my front step, and you rang the doorbell and ran away to hide. When I open the door an see this sad little prank bag. Do I stomp on it, getting hot dogshtt all over my shoe? No, I grab a trashbasket and drop it upside down to smother the fire, then take it to the trash on the curb. A pathetic kid's attempt to rile me up.


Meanwhile, there are about a thousand other goons heading to the houses of people we don't like, and they've got trashbags full of human fecal matter and gasoline. Don't get in a poop war with Goonfleet.

When you put it that way...

we're not only blobbers but cowards who abuse any new feature ?!

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Gorion Wassenar
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#591 - 2013-10-18 05:29:40 UTC
Someone should have to, heaven forbid, leave the safety of the shields to remove this. No to the siphon being able to be shot by POS modules. The whole point of this is to make owners be present to get the isk instead of afk money machines.

Rote Kapelle - NOW IN SLIGHTLY MORE LAW ABIDING FLAVOR!

"DRINK STARSI!" ©®™Ownership Group Chairman

Narffy
Dominus Imperium
#592 - 2013-10-18 05:35:35 UTC
1. This is going to hurt smaller POS owning corps who do not span all timezones. EVE is a MMO where groups of people are suppose to interact with friends. To interact with those friends you're going to want to be in the same timezone. This game mechanic works against this natural tendency and should not be implemented as is. Even small to medium alliances struggle to cover all timezones.

2. Using siphons to get some moon goo isn't going to be as important as denying the POS owner of their moon goo.

3. Siphons are laughably cheap.

4. Large alliance will no longer need to form a fleet of several dreads and support ships to siege a POS. Instead, they can send one guy with a blockage runner around to several POS' and drop siphons to achieve a similar effect.

5. Goons should send its 10,000 members into lowsec all with blockade runners and lay siphons at all the POS' they can find. Have them also target R8's and R16's. They can create an app to track when siphons are destroyed and what systems they're destroyed in. With the app, they can easily determine what timezones the smaller alliances and corps operate during and place new siphons as soon as the other alliances are no longer online. This could really screw up the T2 market if Goons pull it off correctly.

Perhaps you should add a 24 hour timer before the siphons activate and/or make some other changes.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#593 - 2013-10-18 05:40:02 UTC
Narffy wrote:

4. Large alliance will no longer need to form a fleet of several dreads and support ships to siege a POS. Instead, they can send one guy with a blockage runner around to several POS' and drop siphons to achieve a similar effect.

5. Goons should send its 10,000 members into lowsec all with blockade runners and lay siphons at all the POS' they can find. Have them also target R8's and R16's. They can create an app to track when siphons are destroyed and what systems they're destroyed in. With the app, they can easily determine what timezones the smaller alliances and corps operate during and place new siphons as soon as the other alliances are no longer online. This could really screw up the T2 market if Goons pull it off correctly.

...

*shrug*

Progodlegend's elite pvp (siphon edition) squadron will hurt them more.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#594 - 2013-10-18 05:49:04 UTC
Gorion Wassenar wrote:
Someone should have to, heaven forbid, leave the safety of the shields to remove this. No to the siphon being able to be shot by POS modules. The whole point of this is to make owners be present to get the isk instead of afk money machines.


It his highly unlikely that any actual live and undelayed interaction with real players takes place in this scenario. That is really bad game design for a conflict driver.

You put down the siphon(s) in a cloakie hauler without the pos-owner being around

You pick up the loot from a siphon without the pos owner (or even the siphon unit owner) being around

You destroy the siphons without the siphon owner being around, either with posguns from within the safety of the pos, or with drones from your covops SOE ship from outside)

Once again: this is a griefing tool and not a great conflict driver. It's about as exciting as dropping and shooting SBUs but with an added financial incentive for the attacker instead.

That's a whole lot of wasted chances for something that could have generated a massive amount of smallscale pvp interactions on Corp, or Corp + friends level.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#595 - 2013-10-18 05:53:58 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
Gorion Wassenar wrote:
Someone should have to, heaven forbid, leave the safety of the shields to remove this. No to the siphon being able to be shot by POS modules. The whole point of this is to make owners be present to get the isk instead of afk money machines.

It his highly unlikely that any actual live and undelayed interaction with real players takes place in this scenario. That is really bad game design for a conflict driver.

You put down the siphon(s) in a cloakie hauler without the pos-owner being around

You pick up the loot from a siphon without the pos owner (or even the siphon unit owner) being around

You destroy the siphons without the siphon owner being around, either with posguns from within the safety of the pos, or with drones from your covops SOE ship from outside)

Once again: this is a griefing tool and not a great conflict driver. It's about as exciting as dropping and shooting SBUs but with an added financial incentive for the attacker instead.

That's a whole lot of wasted chances for something that could have generated a massive amount of smallscale pvp interactions on Corp, or Corp + friends level.

Sounds like the sort of thing a group of terrible people who shoot structures in cloaky frigate-class ships and keep running away would do.

How horrible can humans be?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Gorion Wassenar
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#596 - 2013-10-18 05:53:59 UTC
So POS owners having porous borders and defense is my problem? If you want to play space empire, someone is going to have to play sentry.

Rote Kapelle - NOW IN SLIGHTLY MORE LAW ABIDING FLAVOR!

"DRINK STARSI!" ©®™Ownership Group Chairman

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#597 - 2013-10-18 05:54:17 UTC
Where's the E-HONOR in this?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Pirmasis Sparagas
Bullet Cluster
#598 - 2013-10-18 06:00:47 UTC
Costs only 20m3 to deploy, but can take 1200m3 of minerals? Sounds a little bit fishy to me
handige harrie
Vereenigde Handels Compagnie
#599 - 2013-10-18 06:01:05 UTC
I can't see a downside to having to live in the area your posses are in or risk losing some output.

Funny side effect is that your own corp, alliance members or random blues can empty the Siphons and keep the materials for themselves without leadership ever knowing who stole the goo, only who set up the siphon.

So much potential for fun fun fun

Baddest poster ever

Gorn Arming
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#600 - 2013-10-18 06:03:42 UTC
Have you considered creating a version that siphons POS fuel?