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"I Don't Want To Be A Demigod" (interesting article at The Mittani)
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Johnny Marzetti
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2013-10-16 19:01:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Johnny Marzetti
btw when you go ratting you are massacring thousands of people an hour and even when you suicide gank someone both they and you have crews that you murder according to official ~eve lore~ so have a nice time with your immersion you roleplaying sickos
Amber Kurvora
#22 - 2013-10-16 19:03:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Amber Kurvora
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
Amber Kurvora wrote:
This is the one area games like WoW actually beat Eve, because WoW is much, much more PvE orientated, and thus effectively lived and died by the flavour and the story telling.


By the same token CoD beats EVE in first person shooting, and the Sims beat EVE in interior decoration. Neither is a valid criticism, because neither is a goal that EVE wants to accomplish.


But it's part of the Eve universe, and whilst the goal of Eve is to create a Sandbox, it doesn't mean it can't also provide a richly textured environment for us to enjoy at the same time. And by the way, it is a valid criticism, albeit one I wasn't actually trying to make. I was making the point that the evolution of the two systems lead to two different methods for painting the universes both MMORPGs exist in. Both have their strengths and weaknesses, and to call them out doesn't necessarily mean someone hates either. Sometimes it's just a case of being honest.

There was a moment of evolving gameplay which sprang forth when the initial Incursion set pieces happened, where some of New Eden sided with the Sansha, which was utterly thrilling and inspiring. People wanted to play the bad guys as much as some of us wanted to play the good guys, all based upon ideological differences within lore entities. I would have loved to have seen that played out further, with the potential for a fully reborn Sansha empire if the 'bad' guys had managed to control enough territory, though I guess that goes against CCP's principal of allowing players to create the Sandbox. Still, one can but wonder how it would have played out.
Amber Kurvora
#23 - 2013-10-16 19:07:59 UTC
Johnny Marzetti wrote:
btw when you go ratting you are massacring thousands of people an hour and even when you suicide gank someone both they and you have crews that you murder according to official ~eve lore~ so have a nice time with you immersion you roleplaying sickos


There's been many a late night discussion with a couple of good friends over just how much screwing must be going on around New Eden, in order to replenish the numbers lost to use demi-gods. With crew compliemtns for NPCs ranging from 1 to 145,000, and survival rates from 5% to 80% (The bigger the ship, the more likely you are to survive it's destruction), the mind boggles at just how much the daily death toll must be across New Eden.

Anyone know if it's been worked out recently?
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#24 - 2013-10-16 19:10:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdiel Kavash
stoicfaux wrote:
tl;dr New features shouldn't require deploying a magic module. Instead the magic module should be replaced with getting NPC populations to settle and run the module. "People" make for better lore and fan fiction. Does PI feel anything like this chronicle? No, and it should.

I disagree. Past the initial week of novelty this would just turn into another game mechanic to be played and min/maxed for profit. Nobody would give a damn about NPCs on your planet any more than people give a damn about the crews of NPC ships they shoot down.

Quote:
It would have been a hell of a lot more immersive if CCP had remembered that people make the world go around. Instead of deploying a magic infrastructure hub, why wouldn't you be required to attract people to your planets or systems? As the populations of your worlds grow, the more bonuses you get in terms of manufacturing, trade, station slots, etc.

Well this is exactly how it works. An IHUB by itself won't produce any money. You need either a taxed population of ratters or a moon harvesting/reaction chain operated by other people to actually make money. Perhaps the best example of this is the rental model: you attract people to live in your space and in turn they help you pay for your lost ships. And the amazing thing about this is that you're not dealing with some scripted NPCs, but with real living breathing thinking humans. I much prefer this interaction to playing SimCity in space.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#25 - 2013-10-16 19:31:02 UTC
Its pretty true. Eve has a fantastic lore that's completely divorced from gameplay. NPCs are just vending machines for isk, loot, or services. It leaves one wanting. But what to do? Add more NPC traffick in the spacelanes? re-imagine concord? fill NPC space with pirates that will kill you? faction hits for suicide ganks? NPCs fighting each other in FW zones?

Nothing really seems all that great of an option.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#26 - 2013-10-16 19:48:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Dersen Lowery wrote:
I always find it interesting that people assume that world lore and world response can only "throttle" player content. What if it creates player content? What if it reflects the content that players create by leaving a lasting impact on the NPC world? What if it *gasp* occasionally forces players to admit that hey, there are a couple of other powers out there? Terrain and weather make for more interesting tactics, even (and especially!) when they aren't convenient; if Sansha Kuvakei ends up throwing a spanner (and a cyno jammer) in the works of some carefully planned capsuleer conflict, so much the better! It's now a more complicated and more interesting conflict.

Lore is valuable because without it, EVE is reduced from a vast universe of trillions to a mid-sized town with a thousand or so buildings (systems) each with a few dozen rooms (celestials). The more EVE's NPC presence feels like wallpaper, the more EVE feels like just another game; players may be able to create content, but that content rarely has any lasting impact on the universe, because only CCP can modify the universe. The terms under which, and the means by which, players can create content are also sharply limited, and so accounts of player content rarely read like good stories--at best, they're climactic scenes.

For me, no immersion means no engagement.

I have to admit I've always felt that local pirate factions should be drawn to any large player conflict like moths to a flame... popping in and out whenever was least convenient for one or more of the player groups participating... and in numbers and ships significant enough to be a worry. The fact that they could pop some of the new one shot cyno jammers makes that concept even more interesting.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#27 - 2013-10-16 19:50:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
Quote:
The more EVE's NPC presence feels like wallpaper, the more EVE feels like just another game; players may be able to create content, but that content rarely has any lasting impact on the universe, because only CCP can modify the universe.

This is totally not true. Who owns the system you are living in has a significant impact on you. Who owns the system next door has an impact. Who owns the region next door has an impact. Every time systems change hands results in a lasting impact on everyone living anywhere in the vicinity. Then there's obviously building stations/POSes which can transform a hostile wasteland into a center of activity, and bridges which literally change the universe map. I've lived in the same area of space for close to two years and I have felt the effect of all of these changes.


nb: I live in a wormhole. Sov null is a dark, empty place where we go out and bomb around occasionally, with little to no regard for the name in the upper left-hand corner. That's not to say that you're wrong, just that your experience as a long-term resident and mine as a day tripper are quite different.

What I was trying to say is that there is no permanent impact. Everything you describe is completely transient. Two hours after Asakai, which could legitimately be the largest battle in the history of the EVE universe, there was no evidence that anything had ever happened. There are memories, YouTube videos of a huge ball of EVE's crude 2D ship tiles that are opaque to outsiders, and a few pictures of what looks like a pile of needles. [edit: forgot the big throwdown that broke TEST; but two hours after 6-VDT, what remained?]

Contrast that with the Battle of Caldari Prime, whose outcome was, in fact, player driven, and which has resulted in a giant blot on Caldari Prime, even though that battle was only a small fraction of the size of Asakai. That's the sort of impact I'm getting at. If you choose to live in Empire, it should feel like you live in an Empire, even if you're one of the greater powers within it.

As for Sansha being a random die roll, if that's true, it's a failure of implementation, not anything inevitable. It would be fascinating if there was a rhyme or reason to his incursions, and if they, too, had some sort of lasting impact. The more CCP fleshes out their active lore, the less random and absurd their NPCs will seem, the more real and consequential the universe will seem, even when the action is player-driven and the NPCs are purely reactive. Purely reactive is still a step up from wallpaper.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Lady Areola Fappington
#28 - 2013-10-16 19:51:25 UTC
Batelle wrote:
Its pretty true. Eve has a fantastic lore that's completely divorced from gameplay. NPCs are just vending machines for isk, loot, or services. It leaves one wanting. But what to do? Add more NPC traffick in the spacelanes? re-imagine concord? fill NPC space with pirates that will kill you? faction hits for suicide ganks? NPCs fighting each other in FW zones?

Nothing really seems all that great of an option.



CCP has given us a reasonably interesting backstory to work with (go read the Chronicles, some of them are great. The torture chronicles are dark as hell, and give excellent perspective on the different factions.).

Unlike other games, we get to shape the story now. I'd like to see a few more chronicles, like Jita 4-4, written based on capsuleer actions in the recent past.The BoB/Goonswarm takeover, for example, written from the perspective of a lowly station janitor. Stuff like that.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
Jennifer Maxwell
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#29 - 2013-10-16 19:56:29 UTC
I agree with the writer of the article. As someone who's interested in the lore, there's pretty much no real way that I feel connected to it. Spacelanes are empty save for players, the Navies of the empires are pathetically weak, the rats in belts feel particularly stupid, and outside of player driven stuff the game just feels flat.

A more immerse storyline would definitely be much preferred to what we have right now.

And when it comes to the removal of NPCs completely, that's just a ******** idea. Players handing out missions to other players is a good idea, but I'd bet you that roughly 80% of them would be along the lines of "dude ill pay u 5 mill to gank the **** out fo that ****** that jsut blew up my Hulk"


I'd like to see frigate rats in lowsec that can actually take a PC Destroyer. Make all NPCs a hell of a lot tougher.
Solstice Project's Alt
Doomheim
#30 - 2013-10-16 20:13:12 UTC
Johnny Marzetti wrote:
ElQuirko wrote:
Kane Blacktyde wrote:
Lots of good points. I love the world of eve and hope that we don't end up having the Amarr Empress replaced by LovestoSplooge69.


My life for Her Radiance LovestoSplooge69; Empress of my heart.

A pretender to the throne! The true Empress is and always shall be xXWeedlordBonerhitler420Xx, blessings of heaven be upon Her Immortal Majesty.
*LOL*
How the **** did you come up with that name ?? XD

Buy Solstice Project for PLEX4GOOD ! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=301266 (this alt-character will get deleted once the sale is done, on 6th of december)
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2013-10-16 20:17:30 UTC
Amber Kurvora wrote:
I'm almost in total agreement with these criticisms. I like a lot of the lore of Eve, but feel like it's somewhat underplayed or totally ignored by both CCP and the people who play the game. There's so much rich history to New Eden and yet it feels relatively anaemic when it comes to incorporating it into the sandbox environment, to the point that in some ways the game feels kind of 'empty', with one system feeling pretty much like the next. You get *some* tourist trails and sites, but considering New Eden is supposedly a living, breathing entirty, with trillions living underneath as demi-gods...well, again, it can feel empty at times.

This is the one area games like WoW actually beat Eve, because WoW is much, much more PvE orientated, and thus effectively lived and died by the flavour and the story telling. Eve on the other hand detached the hand rails of the ride, with CCP pointing to us and telling the user base to create their own ride. Sure, that's hella fun with the politics, battles and general butt fuckery that goes on, but it's made them lazy when it comes to fleshing out the PvE side of things, and in turn fleshing out the Eve universe.

Personally, the time I enjoyed Eve the most, out of everything I've done on Eve, were the special event Incursions which took place. It was genuinely thrilling and a pleasure to be the Good guys, trying to take out the Sansha Super Carriers, seeing pilots from all walks putting aside their differences for a fleeting moment to effectively roleplay a little. Yep, some probably did it for lulz, others did it to be there, and some did it because they were Pirates and could make a killing (literally) out of well meaning care bears, but for a fleeting moment (arf!), I'd like to think a few others got to feel like heroes. It was a feeling that seems to be lacking in Null, W-space and most of the other sides of Eve. You fight in Null and you're fighting to preserve an amoral power base, and your friends in corp. You fight in FW and it never feels like it's for the benefit of any of the empires. Fighting in High Sec? Grieffing is the term that springs to mind.

Personally I'd prefer to feel like the good guy to the amoral douchebag a little more often.



That's kind of funny, referencing WoW like that. When I did play WoW and we were waiting for additional stages of Sunwell to unlock (mission progress) as well as other server wide Events... players tried to use that time to create as much pvp strife as possible.

Mirror images eh?

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#32 - 2013-10-16 20:20:41 UTC
Solstice Project's Alt wrote:
Johnny Marzetti wrote:
ElQuirko wrote:
Kane Blacktyde wrote:
Lots of good points. I love the world of eve and hope that we don't end up having the Amarr Empress replaced by LovestoSplooge69.


My life for Her Radiance LovestoSplooge69; Empress of my heart.

A pretender to the throne! The true Empress is and always shall be xXWeedlordBonerhitler420Xx, blessings of heaven be upon Her Immortal Majesty.
*LOL*
How the **** did you come up with that name ?? XD

It struck me as odd too. But,

Google is your friend

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#33 - 2013-10-16 20:25:24 UTC
Jennifer Maxwell wrote:
I agree with the writer of the article. As someone who's interested in the lore, there's pretty much no real way that I feel connected to it. Spacelanes are empty save for players, the Navies of the empires are pathetically weak, the rats in belts feel particularly stupid, and outside of player driven stuff the game just feels flat.

A more immerse storyline would definitely be much preferred to what we have right now.

And when it comes to the removal of NPCs completely, that's just a ******** idea. Players handing out missions to other players is a good idea, but I'd bet you that roughly 80% of them would be along the lines of "dude ill pay u 5 mill to gank the **** out fo that ****** that jsut blew up my Hulk"


I'd like to see frigate rats in lowsec that can actually take a PC Destroyer. Make all NPCs a hell of a lot tougher.


I thought maybe fewer, tougher rats, better AI and drones. yeah make them really dangerous, give them all the player toys like logi, fleet boosters etc. have them warp off if you try to tackle or snipe. really challenging gameplay rather than just blapping them with sentries from 90km away.

forums.  serious business.
Amber Kurvora
#34 - 2013-10-16 20:30:24 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:



That's kind of funny, referencing WoW like that. When I did play WoW and we were waiting for additional stages of Sunwell to unlock (mission progress) as well as other server wide Events... players tried to use that time to create as much pvp strife as possible.

Mirror images eh?



The devil makes work for idle hands, which just about sums of the entirety of Eve.

"We're bored....quick, gank someone!"

;)
ElQuirko
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2013-10-16 20:46:17 UTC
Deacon Abox wrote:
Solstice Project's Alt wrote:
Johnny Marzetti wrote:
ElQuirko wrote:
Kane Blacktyde wrote:
Lots of good points. I love the world of eve and hope that we don't end up having the Amarr Empress replaced by LovestoSplooge69.


My life for Her Radiance LovestoSplooge69; Empress of my heart.

A pretender to the throne! The true Empress is and always shall be xXWeedlordBonerhitler420Xx, blessings of heaven be upon Her Immortal Majesty.
*LOL*
How the **** did you come up with that name ?? XD

It struck me as odd too. But,
Google is your friend

Weedlord Bonerhitler.
LovestoSplooge69 is the true heir to the "Hitler did nothing wrong" throne!

Dodixie > Hek
Spurty
#36 - 2013-10-16 21:04:56 UTC
After reading the ops quoted post, I feel like I was forced to level up a skill like veldspar processing to level 3

Whatever the original post came from, I'm glad I do not dwell down in those halls

There are good ships,

And wood ships,

And ships that sail the sea

But the best ships are Spaceships

Built by CCP
Velicitia
XS Tech
#37 - 2013-10-16 21:04:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Going into the lore, we (Capsuleers) were made to replace the navies and be "that much better" than what was already there. I mean, seriously, we're (primarily) flying in century-old relics that were retro-fitted to handle a capsule. T2 is a little better, and maybe ... what, 50 years old ... with T3 being the bleeding edge of technology, having come out like 3 years ago, after the Apocrypha Incident.

We are, at best, presented with a history and are now at the point of making our own marks. Some things have had lasting impact -> the Jita Monument, Caldari Prime, Steve,

Other things are "just" battlegrounds, and they're cleaned up ... I mean, yeah, Asakai was a "big fight" as was the interdiction of Yulai ... but so was the Battle of the Bulge or the destruction of the Bismark ... but you don't see random plaques in the middle of the Ardennes or the Atlantic Ocean. Big battles are remembered in museums and in small corners of national landmarks (e.g. there's a hole in the stonework of the RAF Chapel at Westminster where a German bomb broke it during the Battle of Britain... but didn't explode).

Then there are other things of note that happen which don't occur at battlegrounds -> GHSC infiltrating Ubiqua Seraph, disbanding of BoB, etc...

We don't (yet) have the luxury of "museums" or national landmarks -- so we're stuck with the "cave paintings", journals, and word of mouth to keep our history/story alive (not to mention "Eve: Source" and the other books that CCP is teasing us with). Perhaps WiS, Jessica (CCP's trailer maker thing), and some creative log trolling will allow CCP to recreate these "historic events" for people to watch in a museum in stations.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#38 - 2013-10-16 21:05:16 UTC
I would agree that at least with Faction Warfare, there should be a real impact on the game.

People participating in faction warfare should have ability to move empire border lines - that means adding/removing systems in adjacent regions.
They should be able to shift security status from 0.1-0.7 range or so. Key emphasis on changing high sec to low sec and vice versa. At least a range of systems on the border, not all. It should be possible to completely separate 2 empires with low sec systems, no high sec routes - but it should require very active participation of the players. When players just stop fighting there, it should gradually return to default security status.
It should be possible to lock certain stations from being dock-able by enemy faction - not just people participating in the faction warfare, but all neutrals.

These are the kind of things needed to make real impact on actual game, not just pointless grind, but real change. This would make people think twice and actually worry about what's going on. This would make people want to get involved
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#39 - 2013-10-16 21:21:53 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Batelle wrote:
Its pretty true. Eve has a fantastic lore that's completely divorced from gameplay. NPCs are just vending machines for isk, loot, or services. It leaves one wanting. But what to do? Add more NPC traffick in the spacelanes? re-imagine concord? fill NPC space with pirates that will kill you? faction hits for suicide ganks? NPCs fighting each other in FW zones?

Nothing really seems all that great of an option.



CCP has given us a reasonably interesting backstory to work with (go read the Chronicles, some of them are great. The torture chronicles are dark as hell, and give excellent perspective on the different factions.).



Right, all the lore is outsourced to non-gameplay areas. Like Chronicles. Or mission flavor text. Nothing that has anything to do with gameplay.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#40 - 2013-10-16 21:37:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdiel Kavash
Ephemeron wrote:
They should be able to shift security status from 0.1-0.7 range or so. Key emphasis on changing high sec to low sec and vice versa. At least a range of systems on the border, not all. It should be possible to completely separate 2 empires with low sec systems, no high sec routes - but it should require very active participation of the players. When players just stop fighting there, it should gradually return to default security status.
It should be possible to lock certain stations from being dock-able by enemy faction - not just people participating in the faction warfare, but all neutrals.

All of this is possible (Well except for numerically changing the sec level. You can make a system more or less secure.) It is possible in roughly 3/4 of EVE. The remaining areas are there specifically because CCP wants to give people a chance to opt out of these mechanics.

Batelle wrote:
Right, all the lore is outsourced to non-gameplay areas. Like Chronicles. Or mission flavor text. Nothing that has anything to do with gameplay.

The lore is the gameplay. Goonswarm or PL or CVA are a part of EVE lore just as much as the Amarr Empire. Just because you choose to ignore the majority of EVE stories doesn't mean they don't exist.