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"I Don't Want To Be A Demigod" (interesting article at The Mittani)

Author
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#1 - 2013-10-16 17:12:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
Extremely interesting article by beta-veteran Svetlana Scarlet:

http://themittani.com/features/i-dont-want-be-demigod

Snippets:

Quote:
As far back as I can remember, the marketing line around Eve's universe has been that the capsuleers are amoral, immortal demigods, unfettered by the bonds of mere humanity. You only need to watch the opening cinematics for Eve (including the new Eve Origins one) to pick up on this, and it gets restated pretty much every time a new expansion is discussed. CCP Seagull played the part this time during the Rubicon announcement, and for the umpteenth time watching CCP talk about it, my eyes rolled back in my head and I let out a long, heavy sigh.

(...)

(...)While Rubicon sounds like it is firing on all cylinders from a game-mechanics point of view, it sounds like the expansion is continuing down a course of using the fiction as purely a justification for game mechanics, something that drives me absolutely batty.

Eve is Real?

The root of this issue is that CCP has an obsession with trying to make the game mechanics justified with regards to the lore – and not just some, but ALL of them.(...)

Unfortunately, this creates this dissonance where NPCs are incredibly powerful on the one hand, but incredibly impotent on the other. CONCORD can vaporize any ship and has a vast armada that can be sent anywhere at any time, but they aren't capable of taking any kind of preemptive action. Their headquarters is blown up by a fleet of ships smaller than what even most second-rate nullsec alliances can field. The Amarr Empire is ruled with an iron fist, but you can suicide gank all day outside the Emperor Family station and that barely raises a 'meh' from them.

CCP's focus on player interaction is not, by and large, a bad thing; after all, over the last ten years, it has created probably the closest community of players I've ever seen and an MMO. A feat unique in a field of mostly WoW-clones. On the other hand, it has also made the lore look increasingly ridiculous. When I write those lore spotlights, I'm hardly surprised when there are comments to the effect of “lol nerd nobody cares.” And really, why should you, when CCP constantly harps on the fact that the lore and the world of Eve is meaningless to players? Why even bother with it at all if CCP is so afraid to make the NPCs act like actual people instead of vending machines for ISK and LP?

(...)

Don't Tell Me Who I Am

The other thing that bugs the hell out of me about the constant “you are an uncaring ******* demigod” line CCP loves to repeat is that it simply isn't true. Yes, a great many players do relish the ability to give in to their darker instincts and pillage and scam their way through space, but not all; maybe not even a majority, considering how many people are content to mine, mission, and trade their way through highsec. On the other hand, there's many players who do want to play the “good guy,” whatever that happens to mean to them, and I'm certainly one of them. There's a reason a fairly good number of people have settled in Providence with its NRDS rules of engagement, despite the fact that the game is clearly not designed to support such an ROE.

(...)

What's worse is that this mindset seems to lead CCP to neglect anything that doesn't fit into that “I'm only out for myself (or my corp or alliance)” box. Factional warfare? It's an arena that is pretty much only about keeping score and getting the phat lewts at this point. You're Minmatar, or Intaki, or Krusual? Who cares, it's completely irrelevant to anything. Who should you run missions for, the Amarr Navy or the Republic Fleet? I dunno, which faction gear do you want? In essence, most players only make decisions on interactions with the game world based on what gives them the most tangible benefits right now because CCP has a) designed the game in such a way that that is the only criteria worth considering and b) made your past choices utterly inconsequential with regard to your future choices. That latter element is almost completely the opposite of the marketing done around everything that happens outside of highsec, yet it's tolerated there because heaven forbid anyone make the “NPC world” relevant to anyone outside of RP nerds.

Final Thoughts

I am not laboring under any delusion that this opinion is going to be the majority opinion out there among the Eve player base, nor do I think that Rubicon, as it has been revealed so far, is going to be anything other than good for Eve as a game. Hell, even with all this bitter RP nerd grumbling I'm looking forward to the expansion for the changes to warp acceleration mechanics alone. I'm just disappointed that for as much as CCP seems to be focused on making the game of Eve better and better, they seem just as insistent on making the world of Eve weaker and weaker. The promise of Rubicon from a gameplay standpoint stands as a rather stark contrast to the months-long lull in any sort of metaplot development of live events, after a number of FanFest panels where it sounded like we'd finally get some momentum on the storyline front. Even if reports of the metaplot's death have been greatly exaggerated, as CCP Falcon claims, it appears to at least be in a rather deep coma.

When it comes down to it, I don't play Eve to live out some sort of Randian ubermensch fantasy, I am playing it to be immersed in a rich science fiction world. Unfortunately, CCP seems focused on making that world increasingly irrelevant, locking it into a death spiral. If the world and its metaplot is meaningless, why should anyone care? And if no one cares, why should any effort be put into making it actually interesting and relevant?

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#2 - 2013-10-16 17:25:37 UTC
Its true.

People will whine about anything these days.




Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?

Akrasjel Lanate
Immemorial Coalescence Administration
Immemorial Coalescence
#3 - 2013-10-16 17:28:08 UTC
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
Its true.

People will whine about anything these days.


First world problems Roll

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude

Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4 - 2013-10-16 17:31:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdiel Kavash
The author is just plain wrong and doesn't understand what EVE is at all. The story of EVE is not dead, it is not stagnant, it progresses every day. You can read about many facets of it on the very site you linked. The EVE story is not created by a couple of devs at CCP. The EVE story is a combination of daily actions of tens of thousands people. Everyone can be a part of this story.

But CCP have also given you a choice to opt out of this story. If you don't want to take part in events that shape the EVE universe, CCP will not shove any story in your face. Feel free to go save the Damsel a hundredth time in your tiny sealed never-changing box.
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2013-10-16 17:33:20 UTC
Kane Blacktyde
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2013-10-16 17:51:08 UTC
Lots of good points. I love the world of eve and hope that we don't end up having the Amarr Empress replaced by LovestoSplooge69.
Mr Pragmatic
#7 - 2013-10-16 17:51:16 UTC
I have trouble writing a 1000 word essay on something real. This person ship toasts a dissertation on fiction.

Super cali hella yolo swaga dopeness.  -Yoloswaggins, in the fellowship of the bling.

Ludate
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2013-10-16 17:57:07 UTC
I don't want to be a pony.
Jason Xado
Doomheim
#9 - 2013-10-16 17:58:44 UTC
Interesting read. I fall within the "get rid of NPCs" camp. However that doesn't mean turn everything into null sec. It means give the players the tools to create thier own player driven empires where NPCs are not required. My two cents anyway.
Michael Turate
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2013-10-16 18:19:11 UTC
Disagree with the post but it is an interesting jumping off point for discussion.

My guess is that a lot of the early Eve lore was put together quickly by people for who it was not their core job role but who jumped in to do the job because there was no one else to do it and some storyline stuff was required.

Those people probably did not expect the game to live and grow as much as it has and they would not have expected their lore contributions to come under the scrutiny that they now do. The result was that some of the stuff that was out there was confusing and contradictory. Some sterling work has been done to pare down and tidy stuff up and tie up loose ends and the 'story' is now much more cohesive and pleasing.

But however much this lore brings to the game it cannot be allowed to throttle player made content because, in truth, the new lore of New Eden is being built by the players and not solely by the story writers. The existing back story is now tidy, mostly cohesive and supportive enough to allow players to have some historical knowledge and back story to inform and influence their play experience should they want it. But the needs of an NPC storyline or lore compulsions cannot stand in the way of players being able to create their own history because that is what makes Eve a 'live' game and a 'live' experience. Players are making and recording their own history every day and that is unique in a video game. If the lore has to step out of the way to allow that to happen then so be it, the lore must be a supportive framework and not a noose in order that the most unique thing about Eve is allowed to flourish.

Eve is real and it becomes more real every day as players history and experience is added to the canon, this is far more important and significant than adhering blindly to storylines or lore that was created many years ago to give context and detail where none existed. Player history continues to increase day by day and the challenge is to allow that to co-exist with existing content.

Far from the posters assertion that CCP allows lore to rule, I see them allowing and encouraging player driven content to continue to grow and flourish backed up by a first rate back story and with the best item and history archive that has ever been created for a video game.
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#11 - 2013-10-16 18:25:29 UTC
Eve is a pretty schizophrenic game at its core. On the one hand we're supposed to always be on guard, never trust anyone but ourselves, shoot first and ask questions later. On the other, we're encouraged to trust and work with others, band together to achieve common goals, etc.

If those aren't incongruous and pretty much mutually exclusive ideals, I don't know what qualifies. I think it's also why we have such huge divides between groups of players and play styles.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.

ElQuirko
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2013-10-16 18:29:13 UTC
Kane Blacktyde wrote:
Lots of good points. I love the world of eve and hope that we don't end up having the Amarr Empress replaced by LovestoSplooge69.


My life for Her Radiance LovestoSplooge69; Empress of my heart.

Dodixie > Hek

Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#13 - 2013-10-16 18:41:13 UTC
I always find it interesting that people assume that world lore and world response can only "throttle" player content. What if it creates player content? What if it reflects the content that players create by leaving a lasting impact on the NPC world? What if it *gasp* occasionally forces players to admit that hey, there are a couple of other powers out there? Terrain and weather make for more interesting tactics, even (and especially!) when they aren't convenient; if Sansha Kuvakei ends up throwing a spanner (and a cyno jammer) in the works of some carefully planned capsuleer conflict, so much the better! It's now a more complicated and more interesting conflict.

Lore is valuable because without it, EVE is reduced from a vast universe of trillions to a mid-sized town with a thousand or so buildings (systems) each with a few dozen rooms (celestials). The more EVE's NPC presence feels like wallpaper, the more EVE feels like just another game; players may be able to create content, but that content rarely has any lasting impact on the universe, because only CCP can modify the universe. The terms under which, and the means by which, players can create content are also sharply limited, and so accounts of player content rarely read like good stories--at best, they're climactic scenes.

For me, no immersion means no engagement.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2013-10-16 18:45:10 UTC
After reading that article and it's comments, then reading the comments here, it's kind of funny how different people seem to be in the 2 places.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.

Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#15 - 2013-10-16 18:47:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdiel Kavash
Dersen Lowery wrote:
I always find it interesting that people assume that world lore and world response can only "throttle" player content. What if it creates player content? What if it reflects the content that players create by leaving a lasting impact on the NPC world? What if it *gasp* occasionally forces players to admit that hey, there are a couple of other powers out there? Terrain and weather make for more interesting tactics, even (and especially!) when they aren't convenient; if Sansha Kuvakei ends up throwing a spanner (and a cyno jammer) in the works of some carefully planned capsuleer conflict, so much the better! It's now a more complicated and more interesting conflict.

Except that everyone knows that it's not Kuvakei, it's just a whim of the RNG placing an incursion there. Now on the other hand if you gave other people the ability to throw this wrench, *that* would result in interesting conflict.

Quote:
The more EVE's NPC presence feels like wallpaper, the more EVE feels like just another game; players may be able to create content, but that content rarely has any lasting impact on the universe, because only CCP can modify the universe.

This is totally not true. Who owns the system you are living in has a significant impact on you. Who owns the system next door has an impact. Who owns the region next door has an impact. Every time systems change hands results in a lasting impact on everyone living anywhere in the vicinity. Then there's obviously building stations/POSes which can transform a hostile wasteland into a center of activity, and bridges which literally change the universe map. I've lived in the same area of space for close to two years and I have felt the effect of all of these changes.
Amber Kurvora
#16 - 2013-10-16 18:48:00 UTC
I'm almost in total agreement with these criticisms. I like a lot of the lore of Eve, but feel like it's somewhat underplayed or totally ignored by both CCP and the people who play the game. There's so much rich history to New Eden and yet it feels relatively anaemic when it comes to incorporating it into the sandbox environment, to the point that in some ways the game feels kind of 'empty', with one system feeling pretty much like the next. You get *some* tourist trails and sites, but considering New Eden is supposedly a living, breathing entirty, with trillions living underneath as demi-gods...well, again, it can feel empty at times.

This is the one area games like WoW actually beat Eve, because WoW is much, much more PvE orientated, and thus effectively lived and died by the flavour and the story telling. Eve on the other hand detached the hand rails of the ride, with CCP pointing to us and telling the user base to create their own ride. Sure, that's hella fun with the politics, battles and general butt fuckery that goes on, but it's made them lazy when it comes to fleshing out the PvE side of things, and in turn fleshing out the Eve universe.

Personally, the time I enjoyed Eve the most, out of everything I've done on Eve, were the special event Incursions which took place. It was genuinely thrilling and a pleasure to be the Good guys, trying to take out the Sansha Super Carriers, seeing pilots from all walks putting aside their differences for a fleeting moment to effectively roleplay a little. Yep, some probably did it for lulz, others did it to be there, and some did it because they were Pirates and could make a killing (literally) out of well meaning care bears, but for a fleeting moment (arf!), I'd like to think a few others got to feel like heroes. It was a feeling that seems to be lacking in Null, W-space and most of the other sides of Eve. You fight in Null and you're fighting to preserve an amoral power base, and your friends in corp. You fight in FW and it never feels like it's for the benefit of any of the empires. Fighting in High Sec? Grieffing is the term that springs to mind.

Personally I'd prefer to feel like the good guy to the amoral douchebag a little more often.
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#17 - 2013-10-16 18:53:16 UTC
Amber Kurvora wrote:
This is the one area games like WoW actually beat Eve, because WoW is much, much more PvE orientated, and thus effectively lived and died by the flavour and the story telling.

By the same token CoD beats EVE in first person shooting, and the Sims beat EVE in interior decoration. Neither is a valid criticism, because neither is a goal that EVE wants to accomplish.
Johnny Marzetti
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2013-10-16 18:53:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Johnny Marzetti
ElQuirko wrote:
Kane Blacktyde wrote:
Lots of good points. I love the world of eve and hope that we don't end up having the Amarr Empress replaced by LovestoSplooge69.


My life for Her Radiance LovestoSplooge69; Empress of my heart.

A pretender to the throne! The true Empress is and always shall be xXWeedlordBonerhitler420Xx, blessings of heaven be upon Her Immortal Majesty.
stoicfaux
#19 - 2013-10-16 18:57:12 UTC
Being a demigod requires unwashed masses to lord over, so yes NPCs are very much critical to incorporating Lore into EVE. At a minimum, trillions of NPCs would add a sense of scale to EVE.

Take for example, system upgrades. You deploy a infrastructure hub and suddenly you get magic bonuses to your system. *yawn*

It would have been a hell of a lot more immersive if CCP had remembered that people make the world go around. Instead of deploying a magic infrastructure hub, why wouldn't you be required to attract people to your planets or systems? As the populations of your worlds grow, the more bonuses you get in terms of manufacturing, trade, station slots, etc.. Billions of peopleNPCs on a planet should have an impact on capsuleers.

PI is another example. We slap down buildings on a planet and get product. It's basically Minecraft without the social aspects. Why shouldn't PI industrialists have to manage their populations in order to maximize production? Instead of an arbitrary customs office tax, the tax would be the cost to keep the populations happy and working? A harsh lava planet would require more incentives to attract and keep a population of workers, thus affecting the prices of produced goods. And so on.


People are a resource. It would be nice indeed if EVE encouraged us to farm/exploit/tame the unwashed NPC masses. Knowing that there were billions of NPCs out there, trapped in gravity wells, living out their worthless little lives would definitely add a sense of scale and proportion to our actions.

tl;dr New features shouldn't require deploying a magic module. Instead the magic module should be replaced with getting NPC populations to settle and run the module. "People" make for better lore and fan fiction. Does PI feel anything like this chronicle? No, and it should.


Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Guttripper
State War Academy
Caldari State
#20 - 2013-10-16 19:00:14 UTC
Unfortunately, anything done with the non-playing characters will be dissected and scrutinized before being broken down into maximum and minimum results. Players will rush to the next big thing and do their damnedest to be part of the first wave until the next new shiny is presented. A prime example is that new Sisters of Eve ship being released soon and players mauling the agent until CCP added two more agents. Also, players will seek out loopholes in the coding and exploit it enough to make a financial impact until it becomes common knowledge and / or CCP closes that loop.

So what is the easiest path for CCP? Basically let the lore rot while promoting the players as the best thing ever while subtly prodding us to bash each other in an endless cycle of wanton violence and call it good...
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