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Faction Battleships Rebalance...??

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Jasmine Assasin
The Holy Rollers
#21 - 2013-10-16 15:53:24 UTC
Hell ***** wrote:
Malcolm Malicious wrote:
The Rattlesnake as well as all Gurista ships should be remade as purely missile boats, once they release all SoE classes. All pirate ships that aren't Angel or Serpentis need some love. I'm just sitting here waiting for my Nestor. Bear


I hear you, and I admit that it's weird how different the rattler is to guristas NPC's, but how do you differentiate between regular caldari ships and guristas. we got Raven, CNR, Navy Scorp and Golem as missile BS's, I rekon they've covered all bases with those variantions.

If the nightmare gets any love it will become ridiculous, personally i'd like :D to see a bit more fitting and the 2 utility highs re-purposed into another 2 turret slots. Nothing else needs changing :D

We can all dream.



I'd be happy if they added another 10-15% each to the cap and cap recharge. Ships should be able to fire their guns w/o ever running out of cap at least. Right now the best I can do with only guns firing is 21m22secs. This is with a full Genolution (1,2,3, and 4) set and +6 energy systems operation/energy management hardwires.

This seems a bit unfair if you ask me. If I want to actually use my mids (and obviously I do) then this becomes about 6 and half minutes.

Mind you, this is with my incursion tachyon fit NM with perfect skills.

If you have an active tank fit this becomes about 2 and a half minutes at the top end (Gist A-type, gank target) with perfect skills. Shave another minute off for a pulse fit.

I'm not asking for a "Monster" but this ship needs some "love" in the cap dept. at least.

To put this into perspective, a Vindicator with perfect skills and the same implants and HWs is cap stable at 51% with only the guns firing with a max gank fit.

The Machariel and Rattlesnake uses capless weapons, and the same (max gank) fit + implants/HWs ported from the NM to the Bhaalgorn even results in more firing time at 23:39.


Please note: The term "max gank" excludes officer damage mods in regards to this post. I'm well off but not that stupid.
Jacid
The Upside Down
#22 - 2013-10-16 15:57:55 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
We've talked about them some but don't have set plans yet. I wouldn't expect any skill requirements to change.



After the hack job you guys just did on the Marauder class, I can only imagine what will remain when you are done with these.

Then again, anyone who was in a Marauder will be ditching it for a pirate BS, the drops of these hull BPC's pay for a lot of the null sec players, so.......


The maurders are going to do a few things very well and be only so so at everything else. The will do really well long ranged combat, pve, blind star pos bashing where dreads aren't available. I don't see them being used very much in pvp as the imobility is a huge liability especially at the price tag of a maurader, and without the ability to be remote repped you just won't see them much in pvp. They could offset this to some extent by giving bastion mode a damage bonus but that might be a little OP as well.

As to Faction battleships the Bhaal is solid it doesn't need any changes the rattlesnakes needs the domi range and tracking bonus for drones to apply damage better. Or a serious boost to drone MWD speed (which could make for an interesting type of ship). The nightmare is pretty balanced to my experience but i defer to others judgment. The vindi is solid overall insane DPS at the price of being tr. The Machariel needs its drone bandwidth and bay sized reduced and the ship model size reduced but it really isn't that OP its just fast and hits hard (which it should be)

My 2 Cents
Hell Bitch
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#23 - 2013-10-16 16:27:32 UTC
Jasmine Assasin wrote:

I'd be happy if they added another 10-15% each to the cap and cap recharge. Ships should be able to fire their guns w/o ever running out of cap at least. Right now the best I can do with only guns firing is 21m22secs. This is with a full Genolution (1,2,3, and 4) set and +6 energy systems operation/energy management hardwires.


I read an interesting idea a while ago on these forums about the NM's bonus's, i think it was liang nuren that suggested it. What if it had a bonus like 15% or even 20% cap reduction per level for large energy weapons.
sXyphos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2013-10-16 16:31:37 UTC
I just hope the Rattle becomes the "one drone boat to rule them all", that is all Big smile
Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2013-10-16 17:32:10 UTC
Jacid wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
We've talked about them some but don't have set plans yet. I wouldn't expect any skill requirements to change.



After the hack job you guys just did on the Marauder class, I can only imagine what will remain when you are done with these.

Then again, anyone who was in a Marauder will be ditching it for a pirate BS, the drops of these hull BPC's pay for a lot of the null sec players, so.......


The maurders are going to do a few things very well and be only so so at everything else. The will do really well long ranged combat, pve, blind star pos bashing where dreads aren't available. I don't see them being used very much in pvp as the imobility is a huge liability especially at the price tag of a maurader, and without the ability to be remote repped you just won't see them much in pvp. They could offset this to some extent by giving bastion mode a damage bonus but that might be a little OP as well.

As to Faction battleships the Bhaal is solid it doesn't need any changes the rattlesnakes needs the domi range and tracking bonus for drones to apply damage better. Or a serious boost to drone MWD speed (which could make for an interesting type of ship). The nightmare is pretty balanced to my experience but i defer to others judgment. The vindi is solid overall insane DPS at the price of being tr. The Machariel needs its drone bandwidth and bay sized reduced and the ship model size reduced but it really isn't that OP its just fast and hits hard (which it should be)

My 2 Cents


IMO - Damage bonus to the Marauder via bastion... With out it - the ship will remain a PvE toy. with it - it could add enough value to make it viable for use in PvP. Especially structure type bashing where a dread can't be used. It doesn't need a huge bonus but a small / decent one would make it viable for PvP use.

Faction Battleships - they could use a bit of work but, as you point out, not that much. Touches here or there.

With respect to faction ships in general - with SOE coming out, other factions become possible as well.

Caldari + Minmatar combo: Mordu's Legion - missile focus with minmatar speed/agility.

That would finish off the faction combo's.

Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#26 - 2013-10-16 17:41:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Goldensaver
Electrique Wizard wrote:
People seriously fit launchers to Guristas ships?

No, they only do it ironically in order to make a statement.

Also, your name: like the band? Or just a different reference and I'm looking too far into this?

Hell ***** wrote:
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba wrote:
Please buff the nightmare that would be hilarious ;)


I agree, i think it either needs more turret hardpoints and some extra fitting

or

roll the dmg bonus from caldari BS into the hull's role bonus (so 125% dmg to turrets) and then give it 10% per level to optimal range.

Both would be hilariously overpowered


Just so you know, to fully roll the Caldari bonus into the hull would require a 150% bonus to damage because the two bonuses stack on each other (1*2*1.25=2.5).
Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#27 - 2013-10-16 17:48:29 UTC
Electrique Wizard wrote:
Rattle is fine


*cough* Dominix *cough* Roll

It is completely outdated now.

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed
Luscius Uta
#28 - 2013-10-17 06:01:25 UTC
They all need a buff in targeting range, if nothing else. I know that no sane person fits Rails on a Vindi, but a 50km targeting range on a 1 billion ISK hull is a laugh.

Workarounds are not bugfixes.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#29 - 2013-10-17 06:37:47 UTC
sXyphos wrote:
I just hope the Rattle becomes the "one drone boat to rule them all", that is all Big smile

Haven't you heard? Drones suck in PvE now... The Rattlesnake might become the "one boat ruled by all".

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Yummy Chocolate
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2013-10-17 06:58:32 UTC
Jacid wrote:
The maurders are going to do a few things very well and be only so so at everything else. The will do really well long ranged combat, pve, blind star pos bashing where dreads aren't available. I don't see them being used very much in pvp as the imobility is a huge liability especially at the price tag of a maurader, and without the ability to be remote repped you just won't see them much in pvp. They could offset this to some extent by giving bastion mode a damage bonus but that might be a little OP as well.


You apparently forgot that the bastion mod doubles their tank effectiveness and the fact that Marauders are battleships which means they always require frig/cruiser escort as Battleship 1v1s are rare unlike frigs or cruisers 1v1s.

Frostys Virpio > CCP: Continously Crying Playerbase

Felicity Love >... was thinking "moar popcorn"... but now, seeing the truly awesome contribution this thread is going to make to the Greater Glory Of EVE.... imagonnamakkadapizza....
Crania
Aplac Org.
#31 - 2013-10-17 11:30:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Crania
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
sXyphos wrote:
I just hope the Rattle becomes the "one drone boat to rule them all", that is all Big smile

Haven't you heard? Drones suck in PvE now... The Rattlesnake might become the "one boat ruled by all".


Droneboats dont suck in PvE, they are just unpleasant to fly and nothing "half - afk - mode"

The dominix change to drone tracking and optimal bonus makes it one of the most efficiant lvl4 boats with sentry drones
droneamps and omni tracking links, even after the nerf from 10% -> 7.5% per skilllevel.

and i have no reason to use a rattle or a navy dominix or a armageddon.

yes i think rattle and navy dominix are outdated.
Naomi Anthar
#32 - 2013-10-17 11:53:26 UTC
I see more AT ships around where i live in low sec than player owned sansha ships.

Again ... so people think Nightmare is good because it does well in PvE.

Hahahaha. Ships should not be balanced about PvE. It does well only because it can fit tachyons.

But how often do you see nightmare in PvP compared to Vindicators or Machariels ? Or Rattlesnakes, Bhaalgorns?

All Sansha ships need substantial buff.

Just to mention Nightmare IS MISSING COMPLETLY ONE SLOT. Yep it's not drone boat at all. But it's missing damn slot.
It's 5% per level damage bonus is worst crap possible too. Let me show why:

Succubus : at all lvl V - you get EXTRA 0,5 turret from 5% damage bonus. GREAT RIGHT ? Mindblowing i would say.
Phantasm : at all lvl V - you get EXTRA 0,75 turret from 5% damage bonus. Oh so broken and op once again. And is missing damn slot once again and lets not forget 2 utility highs ship does not need - because it got no bonus to neuts etc.
Nightmare : at lvl V - you get extra 1 turret from 5% damage bonus. Yep that's it...

Look at other pirate ships and bonuses : how 5 % damage bonus is comparable to web strenght ? To neuts strenght ? To 10% falloff (it would take optimal)? To shield resistance ?

It's just folling people around into thinking that ship indeed got extra bonus like every other pirate ship. Which is not true : let's see slicer and rff for example. They got ROLE + DAMAGE bonus in one bonus : 25% per level.

What i suggest is to scrap 5% damage bonus or increase to at least 10% per level. Give Nightmare damn slot back you stolen - to low or mid. Give Phantasm slot back you stolen too. And move damn utility highs in those ships - they HATE it , they don't want it. Especially poor succubus. And hella lot of other buffs to all stats of those ships. They were **** - and they are even worse now since everything around got buffed like hell. Phantasm slower than machariel ? Hell it's real.

THERE IS REASON i see more Alliance Tournament ships in low sec than succubuses and phantasms. Yes i live in Tzvi - where often sits Tropic09 - they guy/girl that lost Chremoas. Yep you hear it. I see alliance tournament ships more .... And i do see drams/daredevils ... and less often but still worms/cruors. Just not sansha ships. And i don't want to use them myself. As they are utter garbage.

If i will hear they get buff ... i will be GREATLY disapointed. They need either MASSIVE BUFF or complete rework.
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#33 - 2013-10-17 12:18:58 UTC
I wouldn't be surprised to discover 'the plan' for the Guristas line is

Hybrids + ECM
Dronebay : Worm 0m3, Gila 25m3, RS 50m3

just a little change, nothing too drastic at all.
Naomi Anthar
#34 - 2013-10-17 12:33:36 UTC
And stop talking like Rattle is weak because it's cheap.
It was already stated by people who farm that area themselves - it's just because there is much of those that supply them.

Yep they are just in more farmed areas .

Not saying Rattle is completly fine. But hella sure it's not useless or broken.
Arline Kley
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#35 - 2013-10-17 13:05:32 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
We've talked about them some but don't have set plans yet. I wouldn't expect any skill requirements to change.



So i'll expect everything to change then ;)

"For it was said they had become like those peculiar demons, which dwell in matter but in whom no light may be found." - Father Grigori, Ravens 3:57
Crania
Aplac Org.
#36 - 2013-10-17 13:18:54 UTC
Naomi Anthar wrote:
And stop talking like Rattle is weak because it's cheap.
It was already stated by people who farm that area themselves - it's just because there is much of those that supply them.

Yep they are just in more farmed areas .

Not saying Rattle is completly fine. But hella sure it's not useless or broken.


yep i agree but there just better options for pvp or pve in my opinion
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#37 - 2013-10-17 13:19:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
I like my rattlers, but please....buff it.

Smile


edit: in a re-read it might not eb obvious that I really DO like the rattler and think it's a particularly mean PvE boat when correctly (read aggressively) fit.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#38 - 2013-10-17 18:08:22 UTC
Naomi Anthar wrote:

All Sansha ships need substantial buff.

Just to mention Nightmare IS MISSING COMPLETLY ONE SLOT. Yep it's not drone boat at all. But it's missing damn slot.
It's 5% per level damage bonus is worst crap possible too. Let me show why:

Succubus : at all lvl V - you get EXTRA 0,5 turret from 5% damage bonus. GREAT RIGHT ? Mindblowing i would say.
Phantasm : at all lvl V - you get EXTRA 0,75 turret from 5% damage bonus. Oh so broken and op once again. And is missing damn slot once again and lets not forget 2 utility highs ship does not need - because it got no bonus to neuts etc.
Nightmare : at lvl V - you get extra 1 turret from 5% damage bonus. Yep that's it...

Look at other pirate ships and bonuses : how 5 % damage bonus is comparable to web strenght ? To neuts strenght ? To 10% falloff (it would take optimal)? To shield resistance ?

1, 1.5, and 2 extra turrets equivalent, actually. This bonus compounds on top of the 100% role bonus so it's effectively a 50% increase in actual turrets. (4*2*1.25=10)
Naomi Anthar
#39 - 2013-10-17 18:35:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Naomi Anthar
Goldensaver wrote:
Naomi Anthar wrote:

All Sansha ships need substantial buff.

Just to mention Nightmare IS MISSING COMPLETLY ONE SLOT. Yep it's not drone boat at all. But it's missing damn slot.
It's 5% per level damage bonus is worst crap possible too. Let me show why:

Succubus : at all lvl V - you get EXTRA 0,5 turret from 5% damage bonus. GREAT RIGHT ? Mindblowing i would say.
Phantasm : at all lvl V - you get EXTRA 0,75 turret from 5% damage bonus. Oh so broken and op once again. And is missing damn slot once again and lets not forget 2 utility highs ship does not need - because it got no bonus to neuts etc.
Nightmare : at lvl V - you get extra 1 turret from 5% damage bonus. Yep that's it...

Look at other pirate ships and bonuses : how 5 % damage bonus is comparable to web strenght ? To neuts strenght ? To 10% falloff (it would take optimal)? To shield resistance ?

1, 1.5, and 2 extra turrets equivalent, actually. This bonus compounds on top of the 100% role bonus so it's effectively a 50% increase in actual turrets. (4*2*1.25=10)


I know how bonus ships works with modules etc ... but had no idea it is like that. Thanks for info. Then maybe bonus itself is not that terribad. I though if it is in ship bonuses then it stacks additively.
Fine that does not change fact Sansha ships are missing slots , got too many unbonused highs and are overral slowest ships around hands down (ok maybe Abaddon can contest this title). In short they are terrible - and thats why noone flies them except nightmare for Carebears in PvE. Because surprisingly that so good ship is not that good in PvP aswell.

Edit : +1 mate for non troll and actually useful non-ignorant post. Because i'm sure there many out there who would actually nerf overpowered phantasm and succubus.
Daisai
Daisai Investments.
#40 - 2013-10-17 21:12:57 UTC
Iris Bravemount wrote:
Electrique Wizard wrote:
Rattle is fine


*cough* Dominix *cough* Roll

It is completely outdated now.


A rattlesnake its tank is way and way better though compared to that of a dominix.
It would probably be best to keep the rattlesnake a drone dps ship since for missiles you have the golem you can use.

Perhapse a idea to give it the same bonus as the normal dominix with a small bonus to missile damage or give it the dominix before the nerf. ( the 10% )
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