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Introduce a PvP career agent tutorial + a PvP mission mechanic
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Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#21 - 2013-10-14 21:27:06 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

f.) You don't need an isk reward to PvP. Your reward is killmails and loot off your enemy's ships. Your reward is the adrenaline rush of the fight. Your reward is the knowing you defeated your opponent. If you need more than this, you don't get PvP. And FYI, winning a fight can be defined in many ways, and losing your ship doesn't mean you lost the fight.


Pretty much this. If the carrot you need to jump into PvP is anything other that wanting to jump into PvP, then you're probably never going to enjoy it. I lose more than I win in 1v1. I enjoy PvP, but I'm not the greatest at it. I lose ISK in pvp because I lose often, and when I win, I often forget in my haste to loot a wreck before I bug out. But making isk or getting rewarded materially isn't why I jumped into it.

I can go to EVE Survival and read how to handle just about every single mission and complex in the game; belt ratting is laughably easy. It's rote and repetitive.

By the same token, I can read all about PvP. What I can try to do, and how to do it. And it's useful. But the fact that you never know just what your opponent is going to bring, or how they will behave, until you are already engaged in the fight is what makes it fun. Losing and learning something, or using something I've learned to good effect so that I win is what makes PvP rewarding.

I really don't know how you'd put that into an EVE mission format that would teach anyone how to PvP; the game's AI is simply not that dynamic.

It sounds to me like you want to PvP, OP. Player versus player can really only be learned by fighting other players; I'm uncertain how the game could be made to simulate that, or even arrange real fights in such a fashion that it would be tutorial-like.
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#22 - 2013-10-14 21:35:58 UTC
Rykki Atruin wrote:

  • I feel that rewarding PvP and putting carebears in a situation the encourages them to engage will bring more players into PvP in general. A bigger pool of players willing to engage leads to more PvP engagements for everyone.

    • IMO this is the main mindeset difference: for a PvPer PvP itself is the reward, ISK are only a tool to use for it (ship replacement, modules and so on). For a carebear ISK and wealth is the main goal. Nothing bad, in a sanbox everyone can set his own goal.

    However in EVE food chain the role of PVP is just to destroy wealth, not creating new one, is the only activity in EVE destorying resources, and this is needed for the game mechanics and life cycle.

    Rewarding PVP (turning it in a productive activity) with ISK (or other goods) means enforcing the "carebear" (sorry for being that schematic) goal over other gamestyle. This is wrong as well as would be to turn for instance mining in a gamestyle designed not as gamestyle having as goal resource gathering but only to offer mere PvP target.



    Gizznitt Malikite
    Agony Unleashed
    Agony Empire
    #23 - 2013-10-14 22:56:49 UTC
    Sura Sadiva wrote:
    Rykki Atruin wrote:

  • I feel that rewarding PvP and putting carebears in a situation the encourages them to engage will bring more players into PvP in general. A bigger pool of players willing to engage leads to more PvP engagements for everyone.

    • IMO this is the main mindeset difference: for a PvPer PvP itself is the reward, ISK are only a tool to use for it (ship replacement, modules and so on). For a carebear ISK and wealth is the main goal. Nothing bad, in a sanbox everyone can set his own goal.

    However in EVE food chain the role of PVP is just to destroy wealth, not creating new one, is the only activity in EVE destorying resources, and this is needed for the game mechanics and life cycle.

    Rewarding PVP (turning it in a productive activity) with ISK (or other goods) means enforcing the "carebear" (sorry for being that schematic) goal over other gamestyle. This is wrong as well as would be to turn for instance mining in a gamestyle designed not as gamestyle having as goal resource gathering but only to offer mere PvP target.



    Actually, there is a role of PvP in terms of "isk generation". That's pretty much the underlying motivation for Sovereignty. This isn't a "solo" activity though, however it can be a corporate activity in terms of claiming a WH and making it your home.

    Essentially, PvP has many levels:

    Solo & Small gang are generally done for the adrenaline rush, not for the profit. You can make some profit if you are VERY cautious in your engagements. When I first learned to PvP I went around nullsec in cheap-fit t1 frigates where I killed interceptors, whom I'd later loot and salvage for isk. I would win one in 3 matches, but my ship was so cheap that each t2 item would essentially cover the cost of my ship. The truth is, this isn't "good isk", especially since t2 salvage just isn't worth as much anymore. At the same time, it taught me a ton about ship weaknesses and strengths. You can also make isk just by setting up a bubble and killing scouts and stragglers and looting their ship. It is very easy to kill fleet inties, covops, and stealth bombers (usually) in a t1 frigates, which often drop loot worth more than your ship. But this isn't exactly the "honorable" duels your looking for.

    Medium-Large Gang often centers around structures important for claiming resources:
    Medium gang == Customs offices, POS's, WH Dominance
    Large Gang == Sovereignty, Station Ownership, etc
    While the aggressors of many of these fights simply use the structures to get a fight (i.e. they don't care about the isk generation potential), just as often these are about isk generation too.

    Sura Sadiva
    Entropic Tactical Crew
    #24 - 2013-10-14 23:30:26 UTC
    Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

    Actually, there is a role of PvP in terms of "isk generation". That's pretty much the underlying motivation for Sovereignty. This isn't a "solo" activity though, however it can be a corporate activity in terms of claiming a WH and making it your home.


    Yes, but I meant it in a more general sense, from an ecosystem point of view.

    You can earn isk if you're good and cautios in engagements; but the engagment as a whole is always negative: stuff get destroyed. Sure, the spoils (loot) to the winner, but this is not wealth "created", it's only transfered from a player to another.

    On the countrary for PvE, production, gathering and so on the balance is always positive: wealth is created.

    So PVP fights will hardly be appelling for a "carebear" approach used to see ISK generation as main in-game goal. To make it appelling for carbears, as discussed here, we should reward or backup (in term of wealth) PvP engagments. But to do this, to male it appelling, we should redesign the PVP role as stuff destruction activity.

    As for sovreignity, FW warzone control and so on, yes, is a different level. However there is PvP used to control some potential resources. The income/wealth generation is from using these resources, not directly from the PvP actions required.
    Gizznitt Malikite
    Agony Unleashed
    Agony Empire
    #25 - 2013-10-14 23:53:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
    Rykki Atruin wrote:

    3) It is my understanding that Syndicate is null sec, and my impression is that just getting there is dangerous (especially as I am not 'blue' to any null sec entities that I'm aware of). Again, I'm a carebear and need some coaxing to come out of my den of hibernation... Although personally I am very interested in your offer and may very well take you up on it.

    Syndicate is Nullsec, and you need to take cautions as such:
    Read up on Bubbles, becuase they are used often. Avoid warping gate to gate.
    Make sure you have an up-to-date clone, and don't fly a ship or clone you aren't prepared to lose. Once you get to 3KNK-A, you can change your clone home to 3KNK-A, so you'll respawn there (if you like).
    If heading to 3KNK-A, enter through TXW (not FD-). FD- is generally camped, and while TXW takes you through more "dangerous" (aka lowsec) systems, it is generally not camped (generally).

    Rykki Atruin wrote:

    4) I would consider 'Consensual PvP' as an engagement between players that was wanted by all players involved. I concur that flying in wormhole/null/lowsec implies that PvP can happen at any moment (consensual or non-consensual). I would also agree that high sec is no exception. I do not agree that flying in these zones stipulates consent, but rather acknowledges threat.


    If reviewing seats to a theatre production, and they say, "Warning, the front 3 rows may get wet", and you buy a ticket in one of those front 3 rows, you ARE consenting to getting wet.

    If you go see a hypnotist that brings people on stage to hypnotize them to make a fool of themselves, and you volunteer to get on stage, you ARE consenting to be made a fool of.

    In lowsec, nullsec, and w-space, CCP tells you "people get hunted and blown up here". So, if you head to these areas of space, you ARE consenting to be hunted and blown up. You might not consider the "being hunted and blown up" as PvP, but it is. A major component of PvP'ing is finding ships to fight, and destroying them.

    Rykki Atruin wrote:

    5) Perhaps you do not need a reward for PvP as killmails are your reward. I, however, am a carebear and my killboard stats mean nothing to me. The loot is something I would like to have, but until I have PvP skills it is something I cannot obtain. A reward I would want is needed to entice me to engage. I agree that the adrenaline rush is enjoyable, however it is not (in my mind) a reward.


    Why are you playing this game? What are your goals in this game? These are questions you must ask yourself, and they are very relevant to PvP. This is an open world, and your goals are completely your own. If resource collection is your primary drive for playing EvE, then solo/small gang PvP'ing will (generally) be counter productive to this. Perhaps 95% of the time, these activities are resource sinks (I've lost 500m in assets this month). (Note: These are necessary sinks that keep the economy moving):

    To put this in perspective: When I started PvP'ing (early 2009), I had just broken the 100m isk mark and thought I was rich (BS's ran 50-70m back then, although I couldn't fly one yet). Since then, I've lost probably 30 billion in ships (only 1 capital), all of which I earned by ingame methods (Belt ratting, Nullsec Plexes, Missions, Incursions, PI, Marketing, t2 Production, WHing, etc). I probably have 5x that in assets now, and if I didn't focus my energy on PvPing I'd easily have 20x that. The truth is, I don't care about having isk. I care only about having fun, and whether my wallet says 1b or 100 b doesn't change my enjoyment of the game. Truth be told, I bear it up too; I mine, mission, and do industry when "relaxing" in game, but these activities provide an entirely different form of entertainment than soloing that vagabond in a taranis, or killing a scout before his gang can save him. I'm not saying one form of entertainment is better than the next, only that the loss of isk doesn't "ruin" my enjoyment of either.

    The TL; DR; Do what you find is fun. If you aren't having fun because your "spending isk" rather than acquiring it, then your approach to this game is very different from the standard solo/small gang PvP'er. The "I PvP for isk" crowd are generally Renter and Nullbear Alliances, whom PvP to take and keep space and avoid "risky" PvP where they may lose. However, they also put assets at risk simply by living in conquerable, potentially hostile territories.

    I'd leave you with this question: Why are you earning isk & acquiring assets?
    Kharamete
    Royal Assent
    #26 - 2013-10-15 00:39:55 UTC
    I think that your idea is predicated on the notion that the ships and the guns and the ammo is what makes PvP in Eve. I want to try to bring you out of this illusion by pointing out that you have already responded appropriately when you hired mercs that forced the war-deccers to “turtle up”.

    What went on there shows you the true nature of Eve PvP – that it is a psychological game to ninety percent. Or to put it bluntly, it's about badgering the mind of your opponent so that he runs, gives up, or “turtles up” into inactivity. Much of PvP is about 'bullying' the player in the chair into giving up, going away, or stopping a certain activity. Like you did with the mercs and the war-decc corp.

    I'm not saying that ships, mods and things aren't important. Of course they are. Between two equal players, the edge a better skilled player has is real. But the mods and ships are not so important that there is a need to build specific arenas for the activity. Those arenas can't teach what PvP is about.

    Those arenas can, in fact, be harmful in that they perpetuate the idea that between a five year old player in a frigate and a three month old player, there is a vast unbridgeable gulf. This is not so. But your idea reinforces this idea.

    Therefore, your idea is bad, in my opinion.

    CCP FoxFour: "... the what button... oh god I didn't even know that existed. BRB."

    My little youtube videos can be found here
    Zan Shiro
    Doomheim
    #27 - 2013-10-15 06:01:31 UTC
    How to do pvp in pve today...right now


    Kill off most of the rats, leaving whatever you want on the field to test with

    run e-war on them to see cap drain with running all your mods and such
    practice manual orbit



    There is nothing mystical to running point/scram/web. Either in range or not. Rats will be good practice. Its the manual orbit part as you tackle that needs tweaking as you learn to do it. This gets you that practice. Funny thing is the rats autoorbit will simulate some human players even....you run into quite a few peeps who try to pvp on auto. So you will see real quick how jinking hard left or right will mess this up and why manual is a very nice skill to pick up.



    If you leave this to a few rats you will live even with a pvp fit. If not feeling comfortable run a pve fit to get the room more manageable then dock and refit to pvp one and head back. If looking to get practice the isk/hour hit should not be something to emo rage over.
    Rykki Atruin
    Independant Praetorian Corp
    #28 - 2013-10-15 17:05:12 UTC
    L'ouris wrote:
    Honestly;

    Everything in your proposal is taken care of by joining a player corp and asking someone in corp to practice with you. I think that's the actual point behind letting player run corp members shoot each other.

    Why reinvent the wheel?


    I'm in two player corps with different characters (of which I am the CEO of both) and neither corp has a PvP focus. The way you fit ships and how you play the game are quite different between PvE and PvP. While we do hold monthly frigate tournaments, and fool around shooting at each other outside stations and such, there isn't a lot of learning going on there past the most basic level. I have yet to be scrammed in our frigate tourney, and there is an understanding that there will be no podding as well.

    Domanique Altares wrote:
    Some stuff about why they enjoy PvP


    I am beginning to understand more the rationale behind PvPers and how different it is from why I play the game.

    I'm not interested in training for PvP against NPC rats. I think it would be much more useful to have tutorial missions where two players doing the tutorials are flying against each other.

    Sura Sadiva wrote:
    A very interesting thing that I had never considered


    I had never thought of PvP as a necessary game mechanic needed to offset asset creation. Changing PvP to a profitable activity would probably have implications that could upset game design. What?

    Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
    Things that continue to teach me quite a lot


    1) I shall try to venture out to Null Sec (and not die on the way) sometime this week. Wish me luck.

    2) The main goal of mine in the game is to enjoy myself. I am CEO of my corp and find that the leadership aspect is very engaging for me. My main goal in PvP is more self preservation and defense of corp members. For me, ISK generation is what fuels my ability to be philanthropic (and pays for my PLEX).

    Kharamete wrote:
    Something that opened my eyes to a darker side of EVE


    The psychological side of PvP is something I had not put too much thought into, and to be honest, we hired the mercs because we knew we couldn't fight back on our own and the merc fee was less than the ransom (which makes it money well spent in my opinion)

    Semi-nomadic corp seeking new and veteran players
    Vaju Enki
    Secular Wisdom
    #29 - 2013-10-16 10:53:48 UTC
    Their should be a ganking tutorial, were new player learn to gank other new players that are mining/hauling stuff.

    The Tears Must Flow
    Domanique Altares
    Rifterlings
    #30 - 2013-10-18 21:20:21 UTC
    So, OP. You seem serious about wanting to learn a bit about PvP and have some decent fights while you're at it. I can't give you CCP created tutorials. What I can do is invite you and some of your corpies down for good fights with my corp/alliance mates. Name of the game is T1 frigates. We provide the hulls and fittings for free in our lowsec home system, you provide the pilots. No bullshit, no podding (by us at least, I can't speak for random people that pop up). We can use our comms, and we'll make it a teaching endeavour. If you're interested afterwards, I will even personally sponsor some of you through Agony's basic PVP course. I can even arrange to have the whole thing streamed on Twitch to alleviate any fears of us showing up just to gank you.

    Mail me in game if you're interested.
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