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T2 production confusion
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Mentira
Yeti Labs Inc
#1 - 2013-10-15 01:06:33 UTC
HI fellow spaceship sim serious business men...

First thing: I took 2 years off and now I'm back in business, so some changes I missed in t2 production.

Today I went to Amarr to get some advanced materials for some serious t2 building (a Wolf, hehe)
I still have an old spreadsheet from 2008 I made to calculate costs, amount to buy and everything.
I wanted to run the numbers and included the new materials (those race specific metamaterials) and the changes on my T2 component bpos

after updating all values, it turned out that a wolf will be like 500k cheaper (w/o taking invention into account)than just buying it.
Astonished I put in the updated numbers for a Broadsword (I build a lot of those back in the days) and it turned out with the current advanced material prices I can build it at 267 mio ISK, they sell at 215 mio in amarr... WTF ?

So... What's going on ? Any explanation ? My spreadsheet bad ?
Bertrand Prout
Sunday Sessions
#2 - 2013-10-15 02:49:27 UTC
Your spreadsheet seem bad indeed, you'll have to use decryptors to reduce the ME of the bpcs. https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/blueprints/ this website will help you a lot.

I checked quickly and you want to use a process decryptor for the broadsword and something that gives you at least -2 ME for the wolf. Afaik, your numbers match with -4 ME.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#3 - 2013-10-15 06:18:03 UTC
Mentira wrote:
old spreadsheet from 2008


/thread

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Mentira
Yeti Labs Inc
#4 - 2013-10-15 11:41:03 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Mentira wrote:
old spreadsheet from 2008


/thread


Mentira wrote:
I wanted to run the numbers and included the new materials (those race specific metamaterials) and the changes on my T2 component bpos


read all :)
Mentira
Yeti Labs Inc
#5 - 2013-10-15 11:58:31 UTC
Bertrand Prout wrote:
Your spreadsheet seem bad indeed, you'll have to use decryptors to reduce the ME of the bpcs. https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/blueprints/ this website will help you a lot.

I checked quickly and you want to use a process decryptor for the broadsword and something that gives you at least -2 ME for the wolf. Afaik, your numbers match with -4 ME.


So actually it isn't the spreadsheet that is bad, as you say in the 2nd half of your sentence :)
Because I get basically the same numbers as the website in my old sheet. As I said, I updated it to reflect the recent changes.
If I use a decryptor to get the broadsword to ME -1 (cost according to the website around 2 mio.. and you need 2-4 to get one copy), then again you are at a minimum margin of maybe 5-10 mio

I think I'll leave the ships be and see, what modules will bring in, otherwise I'll just run some lvl 4 missions and make ISK wise much more in less time effort (shipping materials to my station from Amarr or Jita, create the components, then create the ship and ship that to a hub again to sell it)
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#6 - 2013-10-15 16:43:44 UTC
My experience with T2 ship production basically ended before it even started when I realized the underpriced ships were priced as such for Market PvP lulz. It doesn't have much to do with reality.

I bailed out with a 650,000,000 ISK loss before it truly got out of hand.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Zifrian
The Frog Pond
Ribbit.
#7 - 2013-10-15 16:56:01 UTC
Mentira
Yeti Labs Inc
#8 - 2013-10-15 17:33:12 UTC
I read some more about the subject and it seems like there is not much profit compared with the work. My skills are basically maxed out, the only thing to improve are those decryptors, but I don't see the point in that... comparing 600k profit per hour with a lvl 4 mission wich yields about 40 mio per hour....

Goodbye ship production :)
Novia Ephrael
You'll Thank Me Later
#9 - 2013-10-16 00:51:45 UTC
Mentira wrote:
I read some more about the subject and it seems like there is not much profit compared with the work. My skills are basically maxed out, the only thing to improve are those decryptors, but I don't see the point in that... comparing 600k profit per hour with a lvl 4 mission wich yields about 40 mio per hour....

Goodbye ship production :)


You can have ships building while you mission, and it continues while you're offline. That's one reason to do it.

Doesn't exactly take much time to drag a bunch of materials a few jumps away from Jita and click 'Go'.
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#10 - 2013-10-16 02:43:12 UTC
Mentira wrote:
I read some more about the subject and it seems like there is not much profit compared with the work. My skills are basically maxed out, the only thing to improve are those decryptors, but I don't see the point in that... comparing 600k profit per hour with a lvl 4 mission wich yields about 40 mio per hour....

Goodbye ship production :)


a) The Broadsword might not be the most profitable thing to build.
b) The 600k per hour is per production slot. One character can use many production slots, and you can easily use many characters to manufacture simultaneously.
c) You can have your manufacturing lines running 24/7. Realistically you will only run missions for a couple hours each day. If you add up the industry profit over a day or a week, over multiple characters, it will quickly add up.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#11 - 2013-10-16 03:49:48 UTC
Why are you guys trying to *convince* your competitor to compete with you?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Bertrand Prout
Sunday Sessions
#12 - 2013-10-17 04:15:49 UTC
To annoy people mostly.
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#13 - 2013-10-17 04:19:28 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Why are you guys trying to *convince* your competitor to compete with you?

Not everyone ITT is a ship producer. I am a ship consumer. The more people make ships, the cheaper they get. Smile
Jada on Fire
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2013-10-19 11:11:54 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Why are you guys trying to *convince* your competitor to compete with you?

Not everyone ITT is a ship producer. I am a ship consumer. The more people make ships, the cheaper they get. Smile

Latigazo!! hahaLol
Rath Kelbore
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#15 - 2013-10-19 17:37:00 UTC
Google:

Deda'fs industrial tool



I plan on living forever.......so far, so good.
Mainological
Absolute Order
Absolute Honor
#16 - 2013-10-19 22:06:20 UTC
Hi there in largely into tech II production and like mentioned by others ship construction can be largely temperamental to produce for a profit and that it varies from weeks to week. Id recommend checking eve central each time you log in so you can compare your production costs with the competitive market and indeed where to sell your produced goods.

id recommend inventing building and selling modules again the profit margin can be dynamic but with a good library of tech II bpcs you can respond quickly to the changing market not to mention modules have a significantly less investment cost in comparison to ships

either way i strongly recommend using the third party tools to assist your endeavours they take a lot of micromanagement. Out of the work. Ideally all you need to manage is bookkeeping ie a record of production costs for each item/s made against selling price of same items.

either way always do your homework before you commit but quickly remeber the market is ever shifting. ;)
Meyr
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
OnlyFleets.
#17 - 2013-10-20 00:17:18 UTC
Get into T2 production in small steps:

1. PVP modules - these are very high demand, low-margin items, but you will almost never LOSE ISK in making them. This will get you into the 'how' of doing invention and production. You'll also learn about using Meta items in invention (yes, there is a point where they are a good thing, but it takes care to identify that point, and it varies with the price of the finished product vs. the price of the Meta item).

2. Light drones - you will never be able to overproduce the market for T2 light drones. Again, low margin, high volume.

3. T1 ship production - see what it costs to build the base hull for your T2 ship - quite often, it's a better use of your time and resources, and, if done right, can increase your final profit for building a T2 hull.

4. T2 ship production - if you've done all of the above, you now understand market dynamics, how the movement of mineral prices in the middle of your production run can make or break your sometimes thin profit margins in some high-content ships/modules, and you should have a decent collection of T2 component BPO's. Don't EVER buy T2 components, unless some fool is letting them go at fire-sale prices. Buy the end-product moon goo items (nanotransistors, etc.) and build them. Research those BPO's to the very low levels needed (almost all of them are perfect at ME 5 or less, a very few might need a few points more, but it's still a very fast process), and save ISK that way.

This will help you understand that there ARE ships, T1 and T2, that can be produced profitably, and others that the market demand is satisfied by those lucky souls with a T2 BPO, and you'll never be able to produce a T2 item as cheaply as they can.

It's the high-volume ships that exceed the capacity for a T2 BPO to meet demand that are where you want to start focusing your attention. Check the market for Interceptors, Assault Frigates, and those newly cool Logistics and EWAR frigates out. Sabre's might be good, stay away from the rest of the Interdictors, they suck too much to have as high of a demand as the Sabre (although, if you can move some out to a 0.0 market hub, they can be surprisingly profitable).

Some HIC's and HAC's are meh, some are awful for profits. Logistics cruisers move well, as do Recons.

Just my 0.02 ISK worth of suggestions.