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Armor Hardeners Are Useless at PvP?

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James Pickers
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2013-10-14 16:32:40 UTC  |  Edited by: James Pickers
But really they are.

If you fit some EM hardeners and your foe is a missile boat, then you've just wasted low slots? Seeing as you can't know for sure whats going to happen in PvP then its pot luck to see if you get the right ones...
Kosetzu
The Black Crow Bandits
Northern Coalition.
#2 - 2013-10-14 16:53:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Kosetzu
Hardeners are often used to plug resistance holes, or if you know what you'll be facing. Why a missile ship would shoot EM at your armor to begin with is a bit strange, unless it has no other ammo.

If you don't see the point in resists then just fly a paper tank and see how much that helps you.
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#3 - 2013-10-14 17:05:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Bertrand Butler
James Pickers wrote:
But really they are.

If you fit some EM hardeners and your foe is a missile boat, then you've just wasted low slots? Seeing as you can't know for sure whats going to happen in PvP then its pot luck to see if you get the right ones...


As Kosetzu said, you use hardeners to close up a resistance hole, or to boost a certain resistance type that corresponds to the damage profile a known enemy does. A side-effect of using a hardener in a PvP ship is that the damage type covered can also be reinforced via overheating the module, sth you cannot do if you fit a EANM, ANP or passive resistance module.

The importance/relevance of hardeners depends on many things, and changes from one hull/application to the next. Its ******** to characterize a whole module class as pointless.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#4 - 2013-10-14 17:14:07 UTC
Kosetzu wrote:
Hardeners are often used to plug resistance holes, or if you know what you'll be facing. Why a missile ship would shoot EM at your armor to begin with is a bit strange, unless it has no other ammo.

If you don't see the point in resists then just fly a paper tank and how much that helps you.


Pretty much this.... You'll find many, many standard PvP fits utilize hardeners and resist rigs to cover resist holes.

Furthermore, if you know what your target is in, you can very much fit to tank their damage, and you gain a major advantage if you do.

In a recent fight, I knew I was going to bait 2x Vexor, a Talos, and a Myrm in a drake (lol).... I put on Therm & Kinetic hardeners prior to the fight and they spent the entire fight attacking me while we tore them apart despite smaller numbers. They didn't even get a kill.


Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#5 - 2013-10-14 17:31:51 UTC
The Reactive Armor Hardener addresses this issue. It won't be as good as an ordinary, overheated active hardener against certain damage types, but in every case when someone is not shooting into your weakest resist, it's much better use for low slot than a monotype hardener.

Uses too much cap for frig use, and you'll want a cap booster setup to run it on cruisers, but personally I love the mod and it has won me several fights.

.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#6 - 2013-10-14 18:02:21 UTC
Kosetzu wrote:
Hardeners are often used to plug resistance holes [...]


Gallente was plugging their explosive holes so hard for so long, people started considering EM to be the optimal damagetype to engage a t2 green cruiser.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#7 - 2013-10-14 18:39:57 UTC
James Pickers wrote:
But really they are.

If you fit some EM hardeners and your foe is a missile boat, then you've just wasted low slots? Seeing as you can't know for sure whats going to happen in PvP then its pot luck to see if you get the right ones...


Like many people (gallente) you fit 3 trimarks or 2 trimarks 1explo rig?

Try out differently, you might actually end with something your missile spewer will never understand why he couldn't do more dps, despite changing em/explo nothing changes but meanwhile you just eat his children killed the dog kick his ass and took his wife Lol

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#8 - 2013-10-14 18:43:25 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Kosetzu wrote:
Hardeners are often used to plug resistance holes [...]


Gallente was plugging their explosive holes so hard for so long, people started considering EM to be the optimal damagetype to engage a t2 green cruiser.


You can fit both EM/Explo for a huge number without much more mods, just fit differently but yep you need 6lows and third rig.
Does pretty well considering EHP numbers shown, keeps a very good mobility and enough dps to have fun.
Of course just an opinion.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Jon Joringer
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2013-10-15 00:41:56 UTC
Active hardeners are really useful when a ship has good resists except for one or two holes (i.e. Tech II ships). They've got really high racial resists, and then a hole. Using a hardener to plug that hole is better than raising everything a bit with an EANM and still having a hole.
Hatsumi Kobayashi
Perkone
Caldari State
#10 - 2013-10-15 06:53:14 UTC
EANMs and ANPs (and by extension, invulns) are stacking penalized against resist ganglinks, hardeners are not.

No sig.
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#11 - 2013-10-15 11:26:29 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Kosetzu wrote:
Hardeners are often used to plug resistance holes [...]


Gallente was plugging their explosive holes so hard for so long, people started considering EM to be the optimal damagetype to engage a t2 green cruiser.


I'll plug your explosive hole.

Seriously though, Armor explosive hardener and EM rig on Gallente ships make for great resist profile

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#12 - 2013-10-15 12:21:28 UTC
Hatsumi Kobayashi wrote:
EANMs and ANPs (and by extension, invulns) are stacking penalized against resist ganglinks, hardeners are not.

Ummmm...
I'm pretty sure that hardeners are subject to stacking penalties in exactly the same way as other resistance mods (with the exception of the Damage Controls)...

The only significant difference is that Hardeners should be the strongest resist module and therefore appear at the top of the stacking tree and receive the lowest penalty - which may be what you meant but wasn't what you said.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#13 - 2013-10-15 12:33:49 UTC
Hatsumi Kobayashi wrote:
EANMs and ANPs (and by extension, invulns) are stacking penalized against resist ganglinks, hardeners are not.


Incorrect.

You are possible thinking of the Reactive Hardener, which shares a stack with Damage Controls rather than with other hardeners.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#14 - 2013-10-15 13:23:50 UTC
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Kosetzu wrote:
Hardeners are often used to plug resistance holes [...]


Gallente was plugging their explosive holes so hard for so long, people started considering EM to be the optimal damagetype to engage a t2 green cruiser.


I'll plug your explosive hole.



The number of times I've been on teamspeak and asked "should I fill my explosive hole?" is disturbingly high.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
bloodknight2
Revenu.Quebec
#15 - 2013-10-15 22:29:38 UTC
James Pickers wrote:
But really they are.

If you fit some EM hardeners and your foe is a missile boat, then you've just wasted low slots? Seeing as you can't know for sure whats going to happen in PvP then its pot luck to see if you get the right ones...


Are you serious? Lol
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#16 - 2013-10-15 23:09:13 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Kosetzu wrote:
Hardeners are often used to plug resistance holes [...]


Gallente was plugging their explosive holes so hard for so long, people started considering EM to be the optimal damagetype to engage a t2 green cruiser.


EM is the best damage type against any T2 ship, with the exception of mimatar(where it is explosive or kin), that should be common knowledge since 2007 with the EM resist nerf.

Malcanis wrote:
Hatsumi Kobayashi wrote:
EANMs and ANPs (and by extension, invulns) are stacking penalized against resist ganglinks, hardeners are not.


Incorrect.

You are possible thinking of the Reactive Hardener, which shares a stack with Damage Controls rather than with other hardeners.


It is palatially true(thy do stack, but you get vastly better results by the way they stack), since if you use hardeners instead of omni resist mods, the stacking is vastly reduced, because hardeners only stack individual for her resist type and are on top of the stack since they provide the biggest bonus. With fleet boosts, a DCU will give you better results instead of the 3. EANM or even compared to the 2. one, if you include the added hull and shield resistances.

It is basically:

-> fleet resists
- first EANM(87%)
- second EANM(52%)
- third EANM(26%)

vs

-> hardeners
- fleet boost(87%)
- EANM if you have one on the ship(52%)

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Hatsumi Kobayashi
Perkone
Caldari State
#17 - 2013-10-15 23:44:05 UTC
Excuse my poor wording, but yes that is what I meant.

Essentially it's a poor choice to fit more than a single EANM/ANP/Invuln on something you expect to use resistance ganglinks with. You'll get much better mileage out of plugging individual resist holes.

Not that anyone expects Malaclypse to understand the game Cool

No sig.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#18 - 2013-10-16 00:39:36 UTC
James Pickers wrote:
But really they are.

If you fit some EM hardeners and your foe is a missile boat, then you've just wasted low slots? Seeing as you can't know for sure whats going to happen in PvP then its pot luck to see if you get the right ones...



0/10

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#19 - 2013-10-16 09:30:42 UTC
Roime wrote:
The Reactive Armor Hardener addresses this issue. It won't be as good as an ordinary, overheated active hardener against certain damage types, but in every case when someone is not shooting into your weakest resist, it's much better use for low slot than a monotype hardener.

Uses too much cap for frig use, and you'll want a cap booster setup to run it on cruisers, but personally I love the mod and it has won me several fights.



I can confirm this, Reactive Armor Hardners are a good defence against missile ships since they simply adapt to the damage type they do.