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New dev blog: Anomalies revisited

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Jojo Yohan
Boa Innovations
Brothers of Tangra
#101 - 2011-11-16 21:11:12 UTC
Zendoren wrote:
BigCountry wrote:
Tarsas Phage wrote:
BigCountry wrote:
Again you have made changes to the anamolies in the drone regions without mentioning it ...
So I wanna be first to thank you for making even more work for us out here to make money considering i dont see any increase to isk gained from them... All I see is taht drone hordes now take longer , and more work, for the same ISK..


Oh cry me a river. Just how many billions in Plush Compound and other crap does your alliance/blues collectively pull out of the Drone Regions on a weekly basis?

I've been having a ball the past few months taking a close look at what leftovers you haul back to empire, and I swear, compared to the personal income abilities of other 0.0 alliances, you guys have absolutely no room to talk.

If you live in the Drone Regions and have a hard time making ISK by the bucketload, the problem is not CCP, the problem is YOU.

/T




LOL if i read correctly the OP by greyscale they found that sanctums were the best anomolies on TQ ... those arent in the droneregions ... and how much do yall make off of raw bounties and mod drops PLUS faction loot .....

So back to my original post these changes didnt make drone regions anoms more profitable , just more work for the same ISK


You people over in the drone regions have enough money as it is. Your Super Cap hordes are proof of that!

So no buff for you.



I do not see where any of us are asking for a buff. We just don't want our "buffed" anomalies to mean that we will need to work twice as long for the same amount of alloys (note that there is a difference between alloys and isk).
Zendoren
Aktaeon Industries
#102 - 2011-11-16 21:31:45 UTC
Jojo Yohan wrote:

I do not see where any of us are asking for a buff. We just don't want our "buffed" anomalies to mean that we will need to work twice as long for the same amount of alloys (note that there is a difference between alloys and isk).


Quote:
we determined a target average ISK value for every site and then tuned each one upwards (every site bar one ended up needing a buff of some kind) to meet the target goal, using mainly battlecruisers and high-value battleships to minimize the additional Effective Hit Points added to the site as a whole.


This suggest that they are calculating anomalies profitability by its collective EHP. This means that the total amount of isk gain within a site is directly proportional to the amount of damage one must put in it to finish the site.

I do not see where drone sites were specifically mentioned; however, i would suspect that drones were left untouched and the rest of the anomalies were buff to bring them inline to the amount of damage that must be done in drone sites.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are 3 ways to profit from anomalies (Drops, bounties, and salvage). Since drones rely mostly on drops and salvage (not a drone region resident sorry), CCP should have accounted for the profitability of Drone sites correctly if they did indeed use the above method.

Temmu Guerra wrote:
Just because you say its a good idea doesn't mean it is...


You must be new around here, Everyone's ideas here on EVE O forums are correct and a good idea .......

❒ Single ❒ Taken ✔ Playing EVE Online

CCP Guard > Where's the shoot button on this thing?

CCP Space Cadet > What's this "offline guns" button do?
Temmu Guerra
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#103 - 2011-11-16 21:35:53 UTC
Zendoren wrote:

Temmu Guerra wrote:
Just because you say its a good idea doesn't mean it is...


You must be new around here, Everyone's ideas here on EVE O forums are correct and a good idea .......



I commend you on your sense of humor. As for the topic at hand I just would to have confirmation if the drone regions are indeed getting affected by these. Zen your line of thinking is logical (EHP->ISK therefore drones are not affected) but when is the last time CCP did anything logically (cant say that for much longer though apparently Roll)
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#104 - 2011-11-16 21:42:58 UTC
Temmu Guerra wrote:
EHP->ISK therefore drones are not affected
I think you misunderstood him.

Assumptions:
- Anomaly value in these spreadsheets is not calculated as "bounty only", but "bounty + drop + salvage"
- Just because drone anomalies are called hordes and not sanctums doesn't mean they aren't covered

Deduction:
- Drone anomalies are affected as well, and have adjusted (better) payout (as measured by drop + salvage) as well

You can of course argue that the assumptions are surely wrong, but I wouldn't rely on it without a confirmation from CCP either way :-)
Elanor Vega
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#105 - 2011-11-16 21:45:48 UTC
Get rid of mineral drops from drones!!!
give industry a chance!!!
Jojo Yohan
Boa Innovations
Brothers of Tangra
#106 - 2011-11-16 21:46:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Jojo Yohan
Zendoren wrote:
Jojo Yohan wrote:

I do not see where any of us are asking for a buff. We just don't want our "buffed" anomalies to mean that we will need to work twice as long for the same amount of alloys (note that there is a difference between alloys and isk).


Quote:
we determined a target average ISK value for every site and then tuned each one upwards (every site bar one ended up needing a buff of some kind) to meet the target goal, using mainly battlecruisers and high-value battleships to minimize the additional Effective Hit Points added to the site as a whole.


This suggest that they are calculating anomalies profitability by its collective EHP. This means that the total amount of isk gain within a site is directly proportional to the amount of damage one must put in it to finish the site.

I do not see where drone sites were specifically mentioned; however, i would suspect that drones were left untouched and the rest of the anomalies were buff to bring them inline to the amount of damage that must be done in drone sites.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are 3 ways to profit from anomalies (Drops, bounties, and salvage). Since drones rely mostly on drops and salvage (not a drone region resident sorry), CCP should have accounted for the profitability of Drone sites correctly if they did indeed use the above method.



I read that. They also said that they use this metric because ISK/hour has a lot of noise since everyone has their own pace/ship/setup that directly affects how fast they can complete and salvage an anomaly. So while they may have increased the drops and drones in total, they actually increased the time it takes to do the anomaly considerably.

This time increase is due to the fact that one can no longer destroy the four bunkers in 1 version of the anomaly and now must do this anomaly wave by wave. Drastically increasing the time and making it impossible to salvage while running this anomaly. There is already a version of Drone Horde that requires you to do waves, and no one runs that version because it already takes too much time.

Maybe this post will answer a few more questions as to why this change is not a good one, and it has nothing to do with coddling the drone regions.


It also seems that some people have no clue what the problem is, so I stated it above.

tl;dr -> The version of drone horde that allowed you to spawn all the drones and agro them and then bring in your looter at the same time was nerfed so that it has to be done wave by wave, increasing the total time to finish it and therefore lowering ISK/hour, even though ISK/EHP may have increased, this will still lead to a lower income for everyone running this anomaly.
Temmu Guerra
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#107 - 2011-11-16 21:46:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Temmu Guerra
Elanor Vega wrote:
Get rid of mineral drops from drones!!!
give industry a chance!!!


I would prefer this as a miner as it would make mining actually worth something

And jojo get a carrier and hit all bunkers at once.
Jojo Yohan
Boa Innovations
Brothers of Tangra
#108 - 2011-11-16 21:54:12 UTC
Temmu Guerra wrote:

And jojo get a carrier and hit all bunkers at once.


After this patch that won't be possible. Another reason this is a nerf.
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#109 - 2011-11-16 21:54:13 UTC
I personly believe more isk is good, it means people can afford more ships to pvp with... some of us dont need a special reason to go and shoot others

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934
Zendoren
Aktaeon Industries
#110 - 2011-11-16 21:55:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Zendoren
Temmu Guerra wrote:
Zendoren wrote:

Temmu Guerra wrote:
Just because you say its a good idea doesn't mean it is...


You must be new around here, Everyone's ideas here on EVE O forums are correct and a good idea .......



I commend you on your sense of humor. As for the topic at hand I just would to have confirmation if the drone regions are indeed getting affected by these. Zen your line of thinking is logical (EHP->ISK therefore drones are not affected) but when is the last time CCP did anything logically (cant say that for much longer though apparently Roll)


The beauty of my suggestion to manipulate the true sec ststus of a system rlys on its simplicity, excitability, and integrability.

Simplicity - players actions dictate reward and increses reward over time. Simply put, more work you put into a system the more reward you get out of it (I think i heard this in physics class one time) LOL

Excitability - With such a simple system in place, you can tie all kinds of goodies to said system. Cyno jamming, gate gun control, Taratory control, Ship bonus buff and nurf. anomalies and rat spawning is just the tip of the ice burg to what you can do with the system.

integrability - with Ture sec of system already playing a large part as to what you can and can not do within space. makes only since that you give players the benefit to manipulate it and allow them to make tactical and strategic choices because of it. All you need to do is build a light game mechanic that changes the true sec in database and makes buffs, and anomalies ect more dependent on it.

Its intuitive too... most eve players know that the sec status of a system dictate what they can and cant do.

What i'm not saying is that you can make high sec into low sec by doing bad things in a system. I am saying that the system thats already lawless needs a system that can allow players to benefit if they choose to make it even more lawless or more lawful.

This idea can go the other way too, Anti-pirates can get buffs dependent on the sec status of the system and will gain more if they keep the systems higher in sec status.

❒ Single ❒ Taken ✔ Playing EVE Online

CCP Guard > Where's the shoot button on this thing?

CCP Space Cadet > What's this "offline guns" button do?
Zendoren
Aktaeon Industries
#111 - 2011-11-16 22:07:03 UTC
Jojo Yohan wrote:
Zendoren wrote:
Jojo Yohan wrote:

I do not see where any of us are asking for a buff. We just don't want our "buffed" anomalies to mean that we will need to work twice as long for the same amount of alloys (note that there is a difference between alloys and isk).


Quote:
we determined a target average ISK value for every site and then tuned each one upwards (every site bar one ended up needing a buff of some kind) to meet the target goal, using mainly battlecruisers and high-value battleships to minimize the additional Effective Hit Points added to the site as a whole.


This suggest that they are calculating anomalies profitability by its collective EHP. This means that the total amount of isk gain within a site is directly proportional to the amount of damage one must put in it to finish the site.

I do not see where drone sites were specifically mentioned; however, i would suspect that drones were left untouched and the rest of the anomalies were buff to bring them inline to the amount of damage that must be done in drone sites.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are 3 ways to profit from anomalies (Drops, bounties, and salvage). Since drones rely mostly on drops and salvage (not a drone region resident sorry), CCP should have accounted for the profitability of Drone sites correctly if they did indeed use the above method.



I read that. They also said that they use this metric because ISK/hour has a lot of noise since everyone has their own pace/ship/setup that directly affects how fast they can complete and salvage an anomaly. So while they may have increased the drops and drones in total, they actually increased the time it takes to do the anomaly considerably.

This time increase is due to the fact that one can no longer destroy the four bunkers in 1 version of the anomaly and now must do this anomaly wave by wave. Drastically increasing the time and making it impossible to salvage while running this anomaly. There is already a version of Drone Horde that requires you to do waves, and no one runs that version because it already takes too much time.

Maybe this post will answer a few more questions as to why this change is not a good one, and it has nothing to do with coddling the drone regions.


It also seems that some people have no clue what the problem is, so I stated it above.

tl;dr -> The version of drone horde that allowed you to spawn all the drones and agro them and then bring in your looter at the same time was nerfed so that it has to be done wave by wave, increasing the total time to finish it and therefore lowering ISK/hour, even though ISK/EHP may have increased, this will still lead to a lower income for everyone running this anomaly.


You do not PVP much do you?

If they buff the EHP for the rest of the anomalies then the DPS needed will go up thus the time it take to complete the sites will go up.....

❒ Single ❒ Taken ✔ Playing EVE Online

CCP Guard > Where's the shoot button on this thing?

CCP Space Cadet > What's this "offline guns" button do?
Temmu Guerra
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#112 - 2011-11-16 22:11:05 UTC
Jojo Yohan wrote:
Temmu Guerra wrote:

And jojo get a carrier and hit all bunkers at once.


After this patch that won't be possible. Another reason this is a nerf.


I said carrier not super carrier. Sentry II's and heavy drone II's are just as good if not better then fighters.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#113 - 2011-11-16 22:16:20 UTC
Dierdra Vaal wrote:

Given that the eve economy is already suffering from a lot of inflation, to the point where both your CEO and your lead economist have said that the economy is 'broken', how do you justify increasing ISK faucets even more when you should be doing the opposite?

Has any research been done in how this increased income will affect the game and the economy as a whole?


+1 for fewer / slower ISK faucets

Ultimately, I think the answer there lies in turning down the faucet, and compensating by dropping more meta 1-4 / faction items, tags, and rewarding more activities with LP instead of ISK. (But we also need more ISK sinks in some fashion.)

You can still make the same amount per hour (after selling everything), but it slows down the rate of ISK coming into the system and you're forced to get more of your compensation by selling things to other players. If there ends up with a glut of those dropped / earned items, the market will adjust to the over-supply.
Jojo Yohan
Boa Innovations
Brothers of Tangra
#114 - 2011-11-16 22:17:01 UTC
Temmu Guerra wrote:
Jojo Yohan wrote:
Temmu Guerra wrote:

And jojo get a carrier and hit all bunkers at once.


After this patch that won't be possible. Another reason this is a nerf.


I said carrier not super carrier. Sentry II's and heavy drone II's are just as good if not better then fighters.


Feel free to read the rest of my post. You cannot hit all the bunkers at once anymore with the new patch. You have to kill the entire wave before the next wave will show up. I don't know where you got super caps from in there at all.




Zendoren:
I have done PVP in the past and that has nothing to do with what I'm saying. I don't care that EHP goes up or ISK goes up. I care that since you have to complete wave 1 to get wave 2 instead of blowing up the 4 bunkers and getting all 5 waves at the same time, the time to complete the anomaly goes up drastically more than if they just increased EHP.
Zendoren
Aktaeon Industries
#115 - 2011-11-16 22:25:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Zendoren
Jojo Yohan wrote:
Temmu Guerra wrote:
Jojo Yohan wrote:
Temmu Guerra wrote:

And jojo get a carrier and hit all bunkers at once.


After this patch that won't be possible. Another reason this is a nerf.


I said carrier not super carrier. Sentry II's and heavy drone II's are just as good if not better then fighters.


Feel free to read the rest of my post. You cannot hit all the bunkers at once anymore with the new patch. You have to kill the entire wave before the next wave will show up. I don't know where you got super caps from in there at all.




Zendoren:
I have done PVP in the past and that has nothing to do with what I'm saying. I don't care that EHP goes up or ISK goes up. I care that since you have to complete wave 1 to get wave 2 instead of blowing up the 4 bunkers and getting all 5 waves at the same time, the time to complete the anomaly goes up drastically more than if they just increased EHP.


With the new battle ships and BC that they are adding to the other anomalies I'm sure that people will not be able to complete them in the same way and will need to slow down the spawns in the anomalies.

You are speculating that the rest of the anomalies can be done in the same way they were before. Just as i am speculating that it will take more DPS to do them thus takes more time.

If nothing else, worse case scenario I see is that the rest of the anomalies ccp buffs, their Time to completion will be more closer to the time it takes to complete that drone hoard site you mention previously while it remains the same.

❒ Single ❒ Taken ✔ Playing EVE Online

CCP Guard > Where's the shoot button on this thing?

CCP Space Cadet > What's this "offline guns" button do?
Jojo Yohan
Boa Innovations
Brothers of Tangra
#116 - 2011-11-16 22:50:54 UTC
Maybe someone from CCP can enlighten us as to why this anomaly was changed and if any other anomalies were changed in the same way.

It would also be nice to see why they made this change. It seemed from what they said that they did not consider time in the equation, just ISK/EHP, which while a valuable metric, does not show the entire picture.
Avila Cracko
#117 - 2011-11-16 23:11:42 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
Dierdra Vaal wrote:

Given that the eve economy is already suffering from a lot of inflation, to the point where both your CEO and your lead economist have said that the economy is 'broken', how do you justify increasing ISK faucets even more when you should be doing the opposite?

Has any research been done in how this increased income will affect the game and the economy as a whole?


+1 for fewer / slower ISK faucets

Ultimately, I think the answer there lies in turning down the faucet, and compensating by dropping more meta 1-4 / faction items, tags, and rewarding more activities with LP instead of ISK. (But we also need more ISK sinks in some fashion.)

You can still make the same amount per hour (after selling everything), but it slows down the rate of ISK coming into the system and you're forced to get more of your compensation by selling things to other players. If there ends up with a glut of those dropped / earned items, the market will adjust to the over-supply.



+1000

truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
Sister Bliss
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#118 - 2011-11-16 23:20:42 UTC
I have to say, I don't think its possible to make such a simple topic so ******* retardedly complex and incomprehensible to the average grunt.

Instead of making up useless propellerhead nonsense like isk:ehp ratios which mean **** all to anyone, why don't you just speak plain english and pick 1 reference platform which everyone can identify with and use as a comparison point. Notwithstanding that the detail actually given is so vague it is meaningless. You may as well say 'We've buffed anomalies' and let that be the end of it.

Christ
fettes wuermchen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#119 - 2011-11-16 23:27:36 UTC  |  Edited by: fettes wuermchen
A pure ISK/EHP ratio may give you some wrong results. Sancumts are containing much more BS and BCs than smaller sites do.

Let's say you need one hour to bring out one million damage hit points, farming sanctums. That would be 97mio ISK.
Now you are flying smaller sites. Since there much are more ships flying very fast and having a very small signature radius, you will need twice as long. You will get (ratio of 70) 70 million ISK bounty, which results in 35mio ISK / hour.
Yes - these numbers are not real, but they may show you, that your ISK/hour may increase to a third or half only.

This is my idea:
Think about a set. Each set is containing a fixed number of Elite Cruisers, Cruisers, Frigs, BCs, BS and so on. The bigger the site, the more sets will spawn.
Since you need to locate a new site and warp there afterwards, big sites should have their advantage. The Military level will give the number of sites available.

Probably you will reduce the number of different anomaly types (like Haven, Sacntum, Hub, ...), but that would be OK.

Before paying the bounty, a modifier need to be used:
0.8 + (-0.3 * Security) = Bounty modifier

Let's say a sanctum will give you 60mio bounty currently. After using the modifier you will get:
0.0 security: 48mio
1.0 security: 66mio

So you will get a different of about a third, depending where you are living.

Greetings
wuermchen

PS: Even in 0.0 security anomalys need to give you far more ISK/hour than some level 4 agent's will do in high sec.
Xtraneous
Sam's Space Guys
#120 - 2011-11-16 23:44:13 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Also, a couple of things I'm expecting people to ask about that I want to clear up in advance:


First, this blog was entirely my idea; the original implementation was badly designed and I have no problem admitting that. We make mistakes, we learn from them, and we do things better next time around.

Second, yes, there was a huge angry forum thread for the first blog and I ignored it. That was also a mistake (obviously, in retrospect). This happened partly because I was too focused on looking for reasoned critiques to appreciate the significance of the huge outburst that it generated, but mainly because I've been increasingly withdrawn from the forums for the last year or two. It's a pretty draining experience reading page after page after page of angry posts, about all kinds of topics but all ultimately driven by the same core concerns of abandonment and neglect, and agreeing with those concerns, and not being able to do much of anything about it. As a result, I've been avoiding listening to the forums and focusing on doing the best work I can, but the former occasionally precludes the latter. On the bright side, it feels like the mood on the forums has been improving hugely in the last month or two, and I'm making an effort to read and post more as a result. Whether or not this is a good thing is of course a matter of personal opinion ;)



It's great to have you back on the forums, the mood has improved because it's once again full of excited chatter about the cool stuff coming in the next expansion, just like years ago.
Getting things right the first time isn't important, as players we are very forgiving when we feel involved and aware and recently you've all been doing an excellent job of that.