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Battleships

Author
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#21 - 2013-10-13 03:05:50 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
There hasn't been a single post which has pointed out WHY it would be overpowered or imbalanced.

To be fair, I don't believe I said it was unbalanced. I said it would come at the expense of the current features I enjoy on my RNI. Because no way it gets just plopped on without something getting nerfed in the process.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2013-10-13 03:10:02 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
There hasn't been a single post which has pointed out WHY it would be overpowered or imbalanced.

To be fair, I don't believe I said it was unbalanced. I said it would come at the expense of the current features I enjoy on my RNI. Because no way it gets just plopped on without something getting nerfed in the process.

Yeah I didn't mean you. You have a valid point regarding your ships getting nerfed. I meant the people saying its stupid because it would lead to imbalance or its overpowered because its overpowered.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Alara IonStorm
#23 - 2013-10-13 03:38:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
I think the best help you could give Battleships for smaller gang stuff is two simple changes.

1. Cut the Cap use of the 100mn MWD down considerably. They run a bit shorter than Cruisers and take much longer to regenerate the cap % they use. Give them a loftier run time like Battlecruisers, 6-9 minutes without increasing the Battleships cap recharge. It would create the option to have some mobility without a Heavy Cap Booster.

2. Scan Res buff. If a Drake aligns to warp at the same time a Raven hits lock the Drake will make it into warp first. With a buffer shield setup the lock time is almost even. Locking another Raven is an 8 second affair. A 40-50% increase in Battleship Scan Res putting them at between 140-160 (max skill) depending on the ship will give them a reasonable lock time. That translates to better small gang use against all types of ships without negating the abilities of smaller hulls to escape as designed.

In effect it also potentially frees up to two midslots for tackle or accuracy mods. BC MWD run time w/o the % recharge and about 65% of Tier Battlecruiser lock time. Two ways to greatly improve small gang Battleships without making them overpowered.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#24 - 2013-10-13 04:01:44 UTC
I'd rather have +10 warp strength. Twisted

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#25 - 2013-10-13 04:19:34 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
I think the best help you could give Battleships for smaller gang stuff is two simple changes.

1. Cut the Cap use of the 100mn MWD down considerably. They run a bit shorter than Cruisers and take much longer to regenerate the cap % they use. Give them a loftier run time like Battlecruisers, 6-9 minutes without increasing the Battleships cap recharge. It would create the option to have some mobility without a Heavy Cap Booster.

2. Scan Res buff. If a Drake aligns to warp at the same time a Raven hits lock the Drake will make it into warp first. With a buffer shield setup the lock time is almost even. Locking another Raven is an 8 second affair. A 40-50% increase in Battleship Scan Res putting them at between 140-170 depending on the ship will give them a reasonable lock time. That translates to better small gang use against all types of ships without negating the abilities of smaller hulls to escape as designed.

In effect it also potentially frees up to two midslots for tackle or accuracy mods. BC MWD run time w/o the % recharge and about 65% of Tier Battlecruiser lock time. Two ways to greatly improve small gang Battleships without making them overpowered.


BS don't have issues with taking part in small gang fights. The problem is behind the keyboard.
Alara IonStorm
#26 - 2013-10-13 04:34:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
baltec1 wrote:

The problem is behind the keyboard.

Sorry to hear that your having trouble with your Megathron. =(

Good remedy. A little more Scan Res and a little less taxing MWD.

Great improvements to hull w/o making them overpowered.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#27 - 2013-10-13 04:46:51 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Alara IonStorm wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

The problem is behind the keyboard.

Sorry to hear that your having trouble with your Megathron. =(

Good remedy. A little more Scan Res and a little less taxing MWD.

Great improvements to hull w/o making them overpowered.


Haven't needed either of those for the last three years. BS work just fine, in fact, we have never had it this good.
Alara IonStorm
#28 - 2013-10-13 04:50:09 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

Haven't needed either of those for the last three years. BS work just fine, in fact, we have never had it this good.

Haven't needed a MWD or Scan Res...

Someone likes Smartbombs.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#29 - 2013-10-13 04:53:18 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Haven't needed either of those for the last three years. BS work just fine, in fact, we have never had it this good.

Haven't needed a MWD or Scan Res...

Someone likes Smartbombs.


and rapid light missiles. My anti frig raven is one of the funniest ships money can buy.
Robbie Robot
Exiled Kings
Pain And Compliance
#30 - 2013-10-13 05:26:34 UTC
It would be OP because of the stacking bonus resists, and to boot, the resists are on a high slot. As is, taking down a Hyperion that has a few local reps before it can deaggress on a gate can be a chore, unless superior numbers of battleships are used, or vastly superior number of BC. Adding a stacking 30% more resist to its already massive tank will exacerbate the problem. Once the pilot wants to get out, the weapons CD timer and the bastion will end about the same time.
Henry Montclaire
Guild of Independent Pilots
DammFam
#31 - 2013-10-13 06:09:18 UTC
Actually, bastion gives you a 1 minute weapons timer starting when it shuts off. So it'll actually negate that problem. You'll have a minute to kill the bastioned battleship after his bastion is off before he can take the gate.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#32 - 2013-10-13 06:17:07 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
and rapid light missiles. My anti frig raven is one of the funniest ships money can buy.

I'd love to see the fit. Big smile

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2013-10-13 07:06:29 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
I think the best help you could give Battleships for smaller gang stuff is two simple changes.

1. Cut the Cap use of the 100mn MWD down considerably. They run a bit shorter than Cruisers and take much longer to regenerate the cap % they use. Give them a loftier run time like Battlecruisers, 6-9 minutes without increasing the Battleships cap recharge. It would create the option to have some mobility without a Heavy Cap Booster.

2. Scan Res buff. If a Drake aligns to warp at the same time a Raven hits lock the Drake will make it into warp first. With a buffer shield setup the lock time is almost even. Locking another Raven is an 8 second affair. A 40-50% increase in Battleship Scan Res putting them at between 140-170 depending on the ship will give them a reasonable lock time. That translates to better small gang use against all types of ships without negating the abilities of smaller hulls to escape as designed.

In effect it also potentially frees up to two midslots for tackle or accuracy mods. BC MWD run time w/o the % recharge and about 65% of Tier Battlecruiser lock time. Two ways to greatly improve small gang Battleships without making them overpowered.


BS don't have issues with taking part in small gang fights. The problem is behind the keyboard.

Having spent the last few weeks out in Fade hanging out with you Goon guys and being particularly alert with de-scan I have been able to gain a lot of Intel on ships being used as gangs go through systems. I recall seeing 1 Tempest on scan in that time. The rest being battlecruisers, HAC, cruisers (primarily Caracals) and smaller.

If what you say, that its behind the keyboard, then you may need to improve your recruitment practices :)

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#34 - 2013-10-13 07:07:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Roime
Tragedy wrote:

They're used more then any other ship in fleet pvp though.


Except they are not http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20

Only one battleship in the top 20, which is mostly comprised of fleet pvp kills.

Problem with battleships that they are only usable in fleets, and if you have a fleet, why not fly any of the other ships that fill the role better. Battleships lack the ability to force a fight, disengage and even struggle to get to a fight while being expensive and skill intensive.

Battleship class is in a terrible shape, which is a result of CCP's utter failure to rebalance them in relation to current meta, but still increasing their cost.

.

Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2013-10-13 07:54:31 UTC
Roime wrote:
Tragedy wrote:

They're used more then any other ship in fleet pvp though.


Except they are not http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20

Only one battleship in the top 20, which is mostly comprised of fleet pvp kills.

Problem with battleships that they are only usable in fleets, and if you have a fleet, why not fly any of the other ships that fill the role better. Battleships lack the ability to force a fight, disengage and even struggle to get to a fight while being expensive and skill intensive.

Battleship class is in a terrible shape, which is a result of CCP's utter failure to rebalance them in relation to current meta, but still increasing their cost.

Yes I tend to agree. They were very effective at one time. Then CCP came out with the idea they were solopwnmobiles and CCP developed the no Solopwnmobiles doctrine and they've been neglected ever since.

Apart from niche fleet doctrines over the years what should be the most potent subcap brawling combat ship is relegated to blapping npcs in PvE :)

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#36 - 2013-10-13 08:15:56 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Yes I tend to agree. They were very effective at one time. Then CCP came out with the idea they were solopwnmobiles and CCP developed the no Solopwnmobiles doctrine and they've been neglected ever since.

Apart from niche fleet doctrines over the years what should be the most potent subcap brawling combat ship is relegated to blapping npcs in PvE :)

For those that weren't with EVE in the beginning... what were battleships like before they were relegated to target practice?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Tragedy
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2013-10-13 08:18:58 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Tragedy wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Katrina Ons, iseki wrote:
No. Battleships are fine.

They are not fine. They're the least used general combat ship for non-fleet PvP. They're outclassed by most cheaper smaller ships in almost every way including dps (that is actually applied dps not paper dps).

They're used more then any other ship in fleet pvp though. So what would it do to the game to have already good ships all of a sudden get massive tanks and damage projection bonuses? Just because they're not used for small gang stuff as much as other ships doesnt mean theres something wrong with battleships. They're filling their role well. Giving them bastion would be OP as hell.

Its frustrating when people say something would be OP but don't give any reason why. Why would it be OP as hell. I.n a fleet fight it would mean all battleships going into bastion or none or some while others use speed as a counter. I don't know but it seems at worst you would have more pew pew time before you pop.

In terms of missioning it would be moot since they're already trivial anyway. In terms of small gang solo, mobility is very important but at worst more pew pew time for battleships at the loss of being able to move.

I need to spell it out? E-war immunity. I dont think you understand how strong this is. So you take a hyperion. A maelstrom with one of these? Abaddon? An apocalyse with its range and tracking. Throw bastion on it, it now needs 5-6 good dps ships to take it out. Its going to sit there and do damage until you remove it from the field. Or you're forced to get out of its range, if it doesnt have tackle buddies holding you down. It has extra range, resistances, and massive tank. For under 200m isk.
All of a sudden its a requirement to have a bastioned battleship in your roam to counter other ones. Its almost the only counter other then massive numbers. Especially seeing as how grid wide cyno jammers are being introduced.

When you want to change something you have to think of how it would be used in every aspect of the game.
Tragedy
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2013-10-13 08:24:22 UTC
Roime wrote:
Tragedy wrote:
.
They're used more then any other ship in fleet pvp though.


Except they are not http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20

Only one battleship in the top 20, which is mostly comprised of fleet pvp kills.

Problem with battleships that they are only usable in fleets, and if you have a fleet, why not fly any of the other ships that fill the role better. Battleships lack the ability to force a fight, disengage and even struggle to get to a fight while being expensive and skill intensive.

Battleship class is in a terrible shape, which is a result of CCP's utter failure to rebalance them in relation to current meta, but still increasing their cost.
Turning them into OP powerhouses immune to e-war with this module isn't the answer. Yeah, I wasn't pleased with most of the battleship re balance. This definitely wouldn't fix the problem.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2013-10-13 08:55:07 UTC
Tragedy wrote:
Roime wrote:
Tragedy wrote:
.
They're used more then any other ship in fleet pvp though.


Except they are not http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20

Only one battleship in the top 20, which is mostly comprised of fleet pvp kills.

Problem with battleships that they are only usable in fleets, and if you have a fleet, why not fly any of the other ships that fill the role better. Battleships lack the ability to force a fight, disengage and even struggle to get to a fight while being expensive and skill intensive.

Battleship class is in a terrible shape, which is a result of CCP's utter failure to rebalance them in relation to current meta, but still increasing their cost.
Turning them into OP powerhouses immune to e-war with this module isn't the answer. Yeah, I wasn't pleased with most of the battleship re balance. This definitely wouldn't fix the problem.

Once again how would it make them OP and why isn't it the answer. Statements of opinion dressed up as statements of opinion are just that. I'm open to the idea it may be a bad idea. Convince me.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#40 - 2013-10-13 10:52:44 UTC
Surely a reason BS aren't used more in small roams is simple mobility? They can't keep up with the rest of the fleet, and locking them in one place for a minute at a time is not going to help that.
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