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[Rubicon] Electronic Attack Ships

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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#441 - 2013-10-11 20:22:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
even the maulus has more drones than the keres
True, and I think it's easy to go down this reasoning path, but the fact of the matter is that the Sentinel uses its high slots for its neut ewar, so it makes some sense that its damage application would be shifted toward drones. Highs and mids are taken up with ewar stuff on a Sentinel.

On a Keres, though, the highs *can* be used for rail guns, so it's a fair balance. The buff to an additional drone is nice, although a complimentary drone bay buff to at least 15 (if not 20) should be in order. These boats don't have drone bonuses to hitpoints, and considering that drones are going to be the only things being shot when the target is under heavy damps, having the ability to launch one or two replacements when the others get inevitably destroyed would be nice. It's not even as if the Keres would offend the Amarr traditional flavor of 3x the drone bay, since the Sentinel would still have 60m3. 20 m3 bay on the Keres would round out the changes nicely.


yes but the maulus has 2 highs aswell as the larger drone bay/bandwidth 20/30 also can the keres even fit rails along with a plate and a prop???

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#442 - 2013-10-11 20:40:06 UTC
TBH if Gallente were to get a partial drone ship( full bandwidth large bay but no ship bonus to drones) I would rather it be the support line rather than than e-war line.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#443 - 2013-10-11 21:01:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
47 sig on a kitsune is still way too high you would think being electronic specialist ships they would be able to reduce their own sig somewhat more substantially... perhaps they all should have the hyena sig reduction bonus but at varying percentages???

even the griffin has better sig than the kitsune with 42

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#444 - 2013-10-11 21:28:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
Quote:
Avoid overlap with other classes (interceptors and disruption frigs?)


i would say you have failed here as these do overlap significantly with disruption frigs having the same e-war ranges or better but also with secondary e-war added and better stats and more bonuses.

Only way to solve this overlap is to focus EAF on shorter range secondary e-war instead..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Urkhan Law
Black Rebel Rifter Club
The Devil's Tattoo
#445 - 2013-10-11 21:32:15 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Energy war is powerful of course, but it doesn't have the same kind of binary and pronounced impact that the rest of the EAFs can have with disruptors/webs/ECM.

I understand the reasoning to give something more to the Sentinel, could you please apply that same line of though with the EAF little brothers? Are target painters that powerful that justify the Vigil we have now?
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#446 - 2013-10-11 21:37:10 UTC
Urkhan Law wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Energy war is powerful of course, but it doesn't have the same kind of binary and pronounced impact that the rest of the EAFs can have with disruptors/webs/ECM.

I understand the reasoning to give something more to the Sentinel, could you please apply that same line of though with the EAF little brothers? Are target painters that powerful that justify the Vigil we have now?




giving the sentinel more tankiness is much more justifiable than curse like neut range

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Betty Bly
Doomheim
#447 - 2013-10-11 23:18:18 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
47 sig on a kitsune is still way too high you would think being electronic specialist ships they would be able to reduce their own sig somewhat more substantially... perhaps they all should have the hyena sig reduction bonus but at varying percentages???

even the griffin has better sig than the kitsune with 42


I have to agree with this. With the Kitsune needing most of it's slot allocation/cpu to be able to perform it's Ewar role effectively, very little room is left for a tank/buffer (which just blooms your sig even more). In small gangs if your in a Kitsune, you are most likely to be the primary. The 60km range helps some, but not enough to save you before have to gtfo.

"The dead know only one thing: It is better to be alive."
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#448 - 2013-10-11 23:31:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Veshta Yoshida
Urkhan Law wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Energy war is powerful of course, but it doesn't have the same kind of binary and pronounced impact that the rest of the EAFs can have with disruptors/webs/ECM.

I understand the reasoning to give something more to the Sentinel, could you please apply that same line of though with the EAF little brothers? Are target painters that powerful that justify the Vigil we have now?

Speaking of: What happened with the idea that was floated some years back regarding high-slot TPs?

Intro those and the TP hulls move up several power tiers, especially the T2 ones as they can dedicate mids to tank/webs and still get to play with laser pointers like good little yuppies. Seems "fair" (there is that word again, WTF!) to me for a pilot to sacrifice raw dps for applied ditto (same can be done in lows).

Could probably get away with having the high-slot modules being half strength as well, and in that scenario you could add all primary eWar (TP, Damp, TD, ECM) as high-slot options and still leave enough room for future blanket nerfs balance passes on eWar in general.

Note: Bonused TP at half strength yields ~25% sig bloom which is enough for most situations, just need enough to equal explosion radius and/or sig resolution dependent on weapons in use.
Betty Bly wrote:
I have to agree with this. With the Kitsune needing most of it's slot allocation/cpu to be able to perform it's Ewar role effectively, very little room is left for a tank/buffer (which just blooms your sig even more). In small gangs if your in a Kitsune, you are most likely to be the primary. The 60km range helps some, but not enough to save you before have to gtfo.

Define effectively. If you mean reliably jam out BS then yes, in pretty much all other situations .. huh!?!

Those 60km are outside cruiser weaponry range and jammers will consistently remove frigs/dessies on a 1:1 basis, if you want more then perhaps selecting another tool (Failcon, Rook, BB) is the wiser move.

Basically; If you take a frigate, especially an eWar one, into a bigger fight involving bigger ships you will not survive long but if you use it within its (in the Kitsunes case) broad envelope then it is top-of-class with a fairly wide margin .. one ship removing 2-3 enemy vessels for 20s at a time in fights where life expectancy in scram range up front is 5-10 seconds or less is not to be sneezed at.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#449 - 2013-10-12 00:14:58 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
To explain why to give back the drone so quickly - I think looking at the Sentinel relative to the rest of the class it seems unfairly allocated for offense, and we didn't intend for the class to be self sufficient offensively. That said, if that drone feels make or break to the people using it in a small niche, I don't think it's having a very impact outside the niche and therefor don't see a need to remove it.

I think the debate about the Sentinel's power overall is much more centered on the neut range, as others have said, but I actually don't think it needs to be shorter range. Energy war is powerful of course, but it doesn't have the same kind of binary and pronounced impact that the rest of the EAFs can have with disruptors/webs/ECM.



Still sentinel neut range shoulf be closer tolarge neuts

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Hatsumi Kobayashi
Perkone
Caldari State
#450 - 2013-10-12 04:59:26 UTC
What happened to the ECM rework that was "in progress" when sensor strength skills were announced then introduced oh, almost a year ago already?

Because that's the kind of thing that would have been useful to have with the EAF rebalance, don't you think?

No sig.
Hatsumi Kobayashi
Perkone
Caldari State
#451 - 2013-10-12 05:20:53 UTC
Also about the updated stats: nice, definitely better but still not quite there.

I still have to wonder why the Hyena loses a crucial midslot compared to the Vigil... A 2/5/3 or 3/5/2 layout would make a little more sense than the current and unchanged in OP 3/4/3.

No sig.
Oraac Ensor
#452 - 2013-10-12 05:25:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Oraac Ensor
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
Will the new Sentinel/Crucifier model shown at Fanfest make it into Rubicon's release?


Not that I know of


Why not?

It was shown at Fanfest 2012 (i.e. 18 months ago) along with new models for the Imicus, Navitas and Tristan, which have also not yet appeared.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#453 - 2013-10-12 10:18:17 UTC
omg total fail
now the hyena can lock as far as the kitsune , yeah totally balanced
oh and hyena 33m sig vs 47 totally balanced
dumb ccp rise total dumb

and this is the best :15% bonus to ECM target jammer optimal range per level (+2.5% per level)
nice boost kitsune got ...
biased devs the worst ones
must be butthurt by ecm now this is his payback
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#454 - 2013-10-12 11:46:02 UTC
Hatsumi Kobayashi wrote:
Also about the updated stats: nice, definitely better but still not quite there.

I still have to wonder why the Hyena loses a crucial midslot compared to the Vigil... A 2/5/3 or 3/5/2 layout would make a little more sense than the current and unchanged in OP 3/4/3.


yes these EAF's don't need highs beside the sentinel unless you give them some worthwhile damage bonuses i.e. mini recons otherwise leave them 1 high and give the rest of the slots too mids and lows so they can actually tank and get full use out of the e-war mids.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
General Jack Cosmo
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#455 - 2013-10-13 12:31:43 UTC
-i wonder isnt it better to give any energy neuting ship a bigger cap bonus instead of recharge time 5% or 10% cap capacity!!
we use cap batteries of booster's for those ships!!!!!!!
- cap recharge is better for repper ships right?

With lord Xanex by my side I can do anything (Atleast with a smile) !!!!
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#456 - 2013-10-13 13:42:04 UTC
I personally think the Keres should win a Maulus in a brawl

(Same for all the ships)

But thats just me <.<

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#457 - 2013-10-13 14:24:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Zarnak Wulf
General Jack Cosmo wrote:
-i wonder isnt it better to give any energy neuting ship a bigger cap bonus instead of recharge time 5% or 10% cap capacity!!
we use cap batteries of booster's for those ships!!!!!!!
- cap recharge is better for repper ships right?


The Sentinel starts with an impressive capacitor. They increased the cap recharge from 1.33/s to 2/s. Add the cap recharge bonus on top of that and it's in a good spot.

Edit: Hell, that's a 50% cap recharge bonus for the class. Why not list it as a role bonus?
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#458 - 2013-10-13 14:34:20 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
I personally think the Keres should win a Maulus in a brawl

(Same for all the ships)

But thats just me <.<

In fact, considering T2 ships should not obsolete T1 ones, I think T1 should be better fighters whereas T2 should be better at EWAR.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#459 - 2013-10-13 16:55:46 UTC
So if I am looking at this properly, a Keres, being a T2 frig, is getting a huge buff in warp speed and acceleration, and with 2 meta 4 sensor damps, and level 4 skills, can damp it's target's own targeting range to 22.5% of it's standard.

Meantime, with a warp disruptor, it can point at 50 km, on overheat, for a little over a minute, which should be enough for some T2 cruiser buddies to get to the Keres to help out (BC's and BS's will take a lot longer). All the while overheating a Mwd at around 5,000 m/s, with a pure speed setup, and pushing 100 DPS with autocannons and drones for anti-warrior II work.

Yeah, that won't have too many people complaining, once it hits TQ.
This beast will make an inty look silly in low sec, at least, when it comes to effectiveness of tackling.

This thing could set an orbit at 40 km, point, wait for the attack ships to arrive, and only victim ships with a targeting range of over 175 km with be able to lock it.

The typical T2 HAC has a targeting range of 100-130 km, when in fleet bonus mode.
Most ships are a lot less. Even at 130 km, 22.5% = 29.25 km. The Keres can set an orbit at 35, not overheat the point, and can pretty sit there all day pulsing the o/h on the mwd to avoid any small drone aggro.

If you add on a Command ship to that, its lights out baby.

I imagine the backlash against sensor damps will be almost get as loud as the whining about ECM ,when the full impact of these ships hits.
Sister Sophia
Doomheim
#460 - 2013-10-13 19:30:30 UTC
Ong wrote:
These are going to kerb stomp small gang pvp... Why the hell would anyone fly an inty over these? It sure aint for bubble immunity, your pretty much obsoleting a whole other class of ship with these OP monsters.


Agreed.

I've been trying to think of how one of the new inties (say the raptor) would do versus these pwnmobiles. Things don't look good. Seems to me the range bonuses win every time.

-1 these proposals.

That, or give torps a tighter explosion radius and more velocity. There needs to be a sensible countermove. Covops might be it.